Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

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lperepol
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Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#1 Post by lperepol » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:15 pm

Just wondering about pixel/price ratios.

Leica DFC450 C Digital Camera & SW Kit 7,538.00 max.
image size 2560x1920 pixel, 5 Mpixels
$7,538.00 /5 --> $1507.6 per MP

OMAX 18.0MP USB3.0 Digital Camera for Microscope $395.99
$395.99/18 --> $21.90 per MP

Canon EOS R Mirrorless $1999.00 30. 3 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS Sensor and DIGIC 8 Image processor
$1999.00 / 30.3 --> $65.97 per MP

So far the clearest Microscope images I have seen posted on the internet were taken with a Canon.


When comparing high-end cameras from Canon the pixel price ratio is very high for what looks like low-end cameras from Microscope manufactures? I do not imagine that a camera from a Microscope company has a technical advantage in manufacturing superior cameras. Perhaps Nikon may have a technical advantage?
Last edited by lperepol on Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
1) OMAX 40X-2500X 18MP USB3 Plan Phase Contrast Trinocular LED with Turret Phase Disk
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#2 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:45 pm

I regret I know nothing about the Leica DFC450 C Digital Camera & SW Kit
But it's worth noting that 'real' high end microscope cameras are suitable for quantitative measurements, and are more sophisticated than those that we hobbyists typically use.

If you didn't see the link that I posted recently ... have a look at this:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/utyer3xt7t15 ... hrc3a?dl=0

MichaelG.
.

Edit: I've just checked here https://www.leica-microsystems.com/prod ... -dfc450-c/
Peltier cooling looks a good start ... but we need to find a detailed specification before making Value for Money judgements.

Update: A little more detail here:
https://downloads.leica-microsystems.co ... ure_EN.pdf

... and my final thought:
Note that it's old technology: Firewire is near its retirement, and that Sony sensor was released in 2000
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5367752160/sony5mpccd
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#3 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:34 pm

The most important part of any camera is the lens. It makes little difference if the camera has fantastic potential resolution and mountains of software are available for it, if it does not collect the image accurately and project it to the sensor accurately, it is close to worthless. Some cameras have built in lenses and some have no lens. Those that are equipped with sensor only are almost always more flexible and can be mounted in such a way that they can be optimized optically.
Any camera with a built in lens or that requires mounting hardware that incorporates a lens is unlikely to produce images with adequate peripheral and corner corrections on most microscopes it wasn't designed for. If the camera is being marketed as a universal sort of design, that can be used with achromat objectives or planachromat objectives on various microscope models, then it is unlikely to correct for any of them well. Cropping, becomes the default tool that gives such cameras the possibility of capturing an at least acceptable portion of the image.
Cameras without a lens allow for a discrete selection of an appropriate lens for the optical system employed.

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#4 Post by lperepol » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:04 am

Which camera companies make their own sensors?

"Canon states that they produce all their EOS sensors in-house but they have been on quite a large/old process (the biggest drawback of in-house production). They were rumoured to be opening a new fab at some point in 2014 and it now appears to be online. In the release they've been very careful to discuss only their EOS sensors, suggesting other types of camera may be using outsourced parts."


https://photo.stackexchange.com/questio ... wn-sensors
1) OMAX 40X-2500X 18MP USB3 Plan Phase Contrast Trinocular LED with Turret Phase Disk
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#5 Post by lperepol » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:10 am

Digital Camera Reviews and Sensor Performance Summary

https://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dig ... e.summary/
1) OMAX 40X-2500X 18MP USB3 Plan Phase Contrast Trinocular LED with Turret Phase Disk
2) AmScope Trinocular Stereo, 3.5X-90X Magnification Four-Zone LED Ring Light

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#6 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:08 am

AFAIK, dedicated microscope cameras such as the Leica you mention or the Olympus DP 70 line or other from top quality makes boast other features than amount of MP. Sensitivity, the ability to catch low-light images, is extremely important, much more so than in consumer cameras. Dynamic range is also very important. Such cameras are designed to yield images from which quantitative results can be extracted. This is more demanding than qualitative imaging, where the effects should be visually pleasing. IMO the no. Of megapixels per dollar is of marginal value, unless you compare cameras of otherwise similar performance.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#7 Post by lperepol » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:08 pm

I suspect that the software that comes with the cameras is escalating the price? Since there are few camera chip manufacturers. The Apple syndrome a $4,999.00 monitor that needs an optional stand for an additional $1,000.00. When generic Linux boxes are outperforming Macs in AI. Ridiculous!

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/05/1000-monitor-stand/

Sometimes quality is merely a status thing.
Last edited by lperepol on Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#8 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:18 pm

lperepol wrote:... the software is escalating the price? Since there are few camera chip manufacturers. The Apple syndrome a $4,999.00 monitor that needs an optional stand for an additional $1,000.00. When generic Linux boxes are outperforming Macs in AI. Ridiculous!

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/05/1000-monitor-stand/

Sometimes quality is merely a status thing.
The dedicated microscopy software from major brands is expensive in itself, regardless of camera. We also need to remember that the market for research-level equipment is tiny relative to consumef camera market.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#9 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:08 pm

lperepol wrote:Sometimes quality is merely a status thing.
... and sometimes it is not.

Please forgive me if I am misinterpreting you; but it appears that you have made-up your own mind, so I have to wonder why you asked the original question.

Mass-market items tend to be inexpensive; because they are made and sold in quantity, to customers who care about price.
Niche-market items tend to be high in price ... because they are made to a specification, and sold to a discerning few, who care more about performance.

Your interpretation of 'Value for Money' must be informed by Your technical requirements and Your budget.

Hopefully, you have read the presentation that I linked ... and you have also read Hobbyst's wise words.
... The rest is up to you, my friend.

MichaelG.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#10 Post by jfiresto » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:00 pm

lperepol wrote:I suspect that the software that comes with the cameras is escalating the price?...
Yes, that "overhead" per camera, if you want to call it that, is much higher because similar development costs have to be spread over much fewer units. On the other hand, if you buy Leica's camera for one of their microscopes, you can expect it to work and not have to spend umpteen hours sorting out relay lenses, magnification factors, sensor sizes, and so on. If your time is more valuable doing something else, it can be well worth it to pay Leica to do that for you. At least enough of their customers think so, otherwise, they would be buying the microscopic equivalent of generic Linux boxes.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#11 Post by lperepol » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:29 pm

Not sure what I made up my mind about? Just researching and presenting the facts to the best of my ability.
I will be buying a considerably better microscope than I currently have.
I flip and flop a lot, and am leaning towards a Carl Zeiss microscope at the moment with a Canon camera. I have time to make a decision. The comments help me to zero on what topics to dig into and what to focus on. How well objects resolve.
Last edited by lperepol on Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.
1) OMAX 40X-2500X 18MP USB3 Plan Phase Contrast Trinocular LED with Turret Phase Disk
2) AmScope Trinocular Stereo, 3.5X-90X Magnification Four-Zone LED Ring Light

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#12 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:38 pm

lperepol wrote:I ... am leaning towards a Carl Zeiss microscope at the moment with a Canon camera.
Plenty of options there ...
If you can find a combination that suits what you want to do, at a price you can justify, it should be fine.

MichaelG.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#13 Post by Scarodactyl » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:34 am

Canon DSLRs provide a pretty great value for the price. Their free software makes basic controls very easy, and you can integrate with third party software like digicam if you need something fancier.
The only downside to dslrs is that hooking them up to a microscope can sometimes be a pain. Typically microscope makers and large-scale buyers are focused on small sensor cameras, so there aren't as many suitable adapters available to buy used (and sometimes the official adapters aren't great in the first place, so I have heard about some of Leica's DSLR adapters for stereo microscopes.)
But once it's hooked up using a canon dslr is a real pleasure. On newerish ones you can even control them and take shots from your phone with live view on the screen.

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#14 Post by jfiresto » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:23 am

lperepol wrote:Not sure what I made up my mind about? Just researching and presenting the facts to the best of my ability.
Oh, there is nothing wrong with that. But when you do, I hope you collect and present the facts in pursuit of what is good and true. In that regard, I am not sure just how far you will get, comparing Leica, an industrial/scientific goods manufacturer and supplier, to Apple, an increasingly luxury goods peddler that may be entering its senescence (my hypothesis and interpretation from many years of trial and observation). Of course, if you have other ends in mind, please don't let me stop you. Some off the rails speculation, often and on, can be helpful and entertaining!
I flip and flop a lot, and am leaning towards a Carl Zeiss microscope at the moment with a Canon camera....
Oooooo, Carl Zeiss – they make some really first rate gear. You may need to be the patient sort, if you are buying used and not wanting to drain your bank account.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#15 Post by MicroBob » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:50 am

Hi together,

for the professional it is often the question how easy and dependable the needed results can be produced. 60 years ago this led to a considerable sales success of the Zeiss Photomicroscope (55000 units at the price of a really nice car), lasting for three decades. A while ago I talked to a microscopy professional who was caring for microscopes at this time. The Phomis were always fully booked because they offered the image quality and easy and dependable results. This same reason will support the high prices of todays ready-to-go digital photo microscopes. From the image quality alone I wouldn't expect too much from the basic camera solutions for light microscopes: A good APS-C of full format camera is probably better. Once you get into high end terrain you can get astonishingly powerfull cameras for astonishingly prices. In laser confocal microscopy they have to make do with a few photons to for the image and these cameras can do what no normal camera can.

If you want to peep into the possibilities of microscope camera software: The Zeiss Axio Vision software used to be free and you were able to import your own pictures, do a calibration, and do e.g. measurements with it.

For the scientifical minded microscopist Fiji is interesting: https://fiji.sc/

Bob

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#16 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:33 am

Edit: Removed post as I thought you were a beginner (it is in beginners section), but I see by reading your signature that you already have a 18mp camera, so my post was irrelevant.
Last edited by Roldorf on Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#17 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:54 am

lperepol wrote:...Canon EOS R Mirrorless $1999.00 30. 3 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS Sensor and DIGIC 8 Image processor...So far the clearest Microscope images I have seen posted on the internet were taken with a Canon.
Note one big difference between Canon DSLRs and Canon Mirrorless, when it comes to microscopy: Many (most ?) Canon DSLRs can be remote controlled by tethering to a computer via USB cable and the free Canon Utility software. Most Canon Mirorrles CANNOT be controlled in this way, they only support file transfer between the camera and PC. Instead, they can be partially controlled from tablet or smartphone via WiFi, but it is not the same.
The only Canon Mirrorless that support tethering are the M50 and R. Or perhaps newer models than the R.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#18 Post by jfiresto » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:09 pm

Roldorf wrote:Edit: Removed post as I thought you were a beginner (it is in beginners section), but I see by reading your signature that you already have a 18mp camera, so my post was irrelevant.
And I was going to suggest how you might power a camera off 230V, but I can no longer find the post.

It is a current project for a couple Olympus and Panasonic cameras.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#19 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:19 pm

Canon cameras have battery adapters to power their cameras from the mains. As far as I can see the only one that doesn't is the EOS 4000d, (marketed in the USA under the Rebel name), because of the lack of an exit port for the cable.
(You can always make a slot in the battery cover for the cable to exit) as long as you don't mind invalidating the warranty.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#20 Post by jfiresto » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:13 pm

Roldorf wrote:... (You can always make a slot in the battery cover for the cable to exit) as long as you don't mind invalidating the warranty.
How hard is it to change the battery cover, and later restore the unmodified original when you need to? Olympus only wanted 4,90 euros for a replacement cover for my camera. I received two today in a generously sized box:
covers1.jpg
covers1.jpg (93.45 KiB) Viewed 1924 times
covers2.jpg
covers2.jpg (101.38 KiB) Viewed 1924 times
The Canon 4000D sure looks nice!
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#21 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:44 pm

jfiresto

Hi just looked on net and at my camera. There is no way to get the battery door off without dismantling the base of the camera and I see no replacement battery doors on the internet.
At 239 euros for the camera I am not really surprised. :(
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#22 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:52 pm

Roldorf wrote:jfiresto

Hi just looked on net and at my camera. There is no way to get the battery door off without dismantling the base of the camera and I see no replacement battery doors on the internet.
At 239 euros for the camera I am not really surprised. :(
I would be surprised, if it were cost-related. The Canon M10 also costs around 250 euris or less, and it CAN be operated off the mains, with an adapter.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#23 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:24 pm

Hi Hobbyst46
I have spent a few hours searching for replacement battery doors for the 4000d if you find one let me know. I also don't see any way to remove it without dismantling the camera.
Image
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#24 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:34 pm

Of course the other option is to make a tab to depress the battery switch and glue it to the mains adapter so that when it is inserted into the camera it holds the micro-switch down. That way the warranty is not invalidated.
Alan
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#25 Post by jfiresto » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:43 pm

Roldorf wrote:... Hi just looked on net and at my camera. There is no way to get the battery door off without dismantling the base of the camera and I see no replacement battery doors on the internet....
That is a shame. The door on my Olympus E-PL7 pulls out and pops back in, as it does for this guy.
-John

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#26 Post by mrsonchus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:17 pm

Hi, how about buying a 'broken' 4000D like this one to use it's battery-door and maybe even other bits...?

Cheap enough at the price....

John B.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#27 Post by MicroBob » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:06 pm

jfiresto wrote:
Roldorf wrote:... Hi just looked on net and at my camera. There is no way to get the battery door off without dismantling the base of the camera and I see no replacement battery doors on the internet....
That is a shame. The door on my Olympus E-PL7 pulls out and pops back in, as it does for this guy.
Other cameras have small openings in the cover that can be used after removing a small cover. Can you dremel a small slot in and lead the cable through it?

Bob

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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#28 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:38 pm

@Roldorf:

Maybe it is a naive thought, I would call LMscope and ask them about the AC adapter possibilities for the Canon 4000D.
I suggest it because LMscope provides reviews of many cameras, as well as their suitability for microscopy. The Canon 4000D is among the recommended cameras for microscopy. And, the review of the 4000D specifically contains a link named AC Adapter. Pressing it opens a description of an adapter. Now from that point on, no specific camera is mentioned, so it might be a "generic" reference and not globally valid; still, since their site is so nicely detailed, I would inquire.
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Re: Microscope Cameras from Microscop Manufactures VS Other

#29 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:43 pm

Interesting: The Cannon EOS 4000d does appear in the listings of cameras that they provide mains adapters for.
https://www.lmscope.com/en/dummy_batter ... ra_en.html
However the date under the article reads 24.7.2015 long before the camera was for sale ( June 2018) and still doesn't clear up the issue of how to close the battery door without fouling the cable.
Alan
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