Microscope Cameras?

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Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#181 Post by Dave S » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:53 pm

Roldorf wrote:Wow Dave just think how many views you would have gotten if the title had been 'Which Microscope?'
:lol:
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#182 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:01 pm

I have posted a link to this topic to Bresser in Germany in the hope that they may take an interest in the following that the post has accrued and as such make a positive step to providing owners and prospective owners of their microscopes an accessory to connect their apsc sensor cameras to their microscopes (we live in hope) :D

Edit: Especially the Canon EOS 4000d a very reasonably priced camera for microscopy. ;)
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
Optika SFX 90

MicroBob
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#183 Post by MicroBob » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:13 pm

Roldorf wrote:Especially the Canon EOS 4000d a very reasonably priced camera for microscopy. ;)
It has electronic first shutter curtain too. Can it be controlled via PC like many other Canon DSLRs and (unfortunately) few Canon DSLMs?

Bob

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#184 Post by Roldorf » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:33 pm

Hi MicroBob
Yes it comes with the EOS utility software to control the camera from a PC, laptop, smartphone, Apple Ipad and phones both with USB cable and WiFi. Can also output to HDMI devices. Best of all worlds. Can also save images in Raw format if that's what you need. The triggering of the camera can also launch a secondary software package for editing of the images such as ToupView. I use Micam 2.4 because I can set up the measuring software for the images coming from the camera. All you need is a micrometer slide to set it up initially.

Edit: as long as you remember which objective you used with each image. ;). Live view is the setting when using the EOS utility software.

2nd Edit: You can also record video from the camera at 1080p although you have to copy that from the camera to the PC manually but you still get the live view on the monitor allowing you to track your subject with the stage.
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
Optika SFX 90

apochronaut
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#185 Post by apochronaut » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:If they do not require corrections, one of those 2x chinese relay lenses (like the amscope) should be fine, or perhaps better a nikon 2.5x cf relay. The nikon ones are very nice, and available used cheaper than the 2x. In either case you will not need any intermediate optics, just straight to the sensor.
The eyepiece is the intermediate optic, whether the set up is afocal or if you use a photo tube with an eyepiece installed as a relay lens. -----

The principle difference is that in an afocal system, the tube length is automatically set to the optical tube length of the system and if you want a representative image of the view you are seeing through the microscope, and your sensor size is about the same as the f.o.v., then you are best to use the properly corrected eyepiece that you view through. If you are not getting a perfectly plan and corrected view through the eyepieces, then the photo image will likely be worse. A photo eyepiece used in that situation would have to be a) perfectly corrected for the objective or objective/telan lens combination and b)magnify the same amount as the viewing eyepiece.
With an APS-C sensor, which is approx. equivalent in size to a 20mm f.o.v., and a 2X eyepiece used afocally to photograph a f.o.v. that has been viewed with 10X eyepieces, you will get a huge f.o.v. but also magnification that is reduced by 5X. In order to present the image on a screen that roughly equates to what the eye sees at a 20mm f.o.v., the image will have to be cropped enough to compensate for the reduced magnification. There will be no gain in resolution by virtue of magnifying the original image less. Further , the likelihood of the 2X eyepiece to have been corrected for the optical tube length of the system is low.

When using an eyepiece as a relay lens in a photo tube, the situation becomes more difficult because photo tube specifications are seldom the same between any two manufacturers. Thus the reason for the extreme variability between the marked magnification on the eyepiece and what it provides with a tube length that is not original. For a photo eyepiece to perform up to needed specifications in terms of magnification and corrections when used outside of it's intended application it must be tested. Many do not make a claim of the intended tube length( Olympus does) but most use a different tube length than the optical tube length, so in order for the corrections to be accurate, the originally called for parameters need to be adhered to.

You can't really tell if an eyepiece has no chromatic corrections, unless you test it. All eyepieces do to some degree, unless the system they are from is precisely designed to not require chromatic corrections and then the precise engineered photo tube length would need to be adhered to as well. Eyepieces that are corrected, have varying corrections usually. Two over compensated eyepieces not necessarily will be over compensated to the same degree and some objectives require under compensation, so assuming that any given eyepiece will work such and such a way in a photo system , is the primary reason there are so many failures when diy'ing a photo system.

It really is a question of testing the entirety of the system , if possible finding one that is in use and works well, or adhering to the manufacturer's specifications for the set up.

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#186 Post by Dave S » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:42 pm

The big advantage of proper forums like this, that are hosted on a rented server, is that a 'post', and its title/subject is easily found.

Wheras with Facebook based forums, 'threads quickly disappear down the pile, likely never to be seen again. FB "forums" are more of an internet chat room, than an information resource.

The main difference difference is that FB is free to whoever runs the group, whereas forums like this cost money to provide.

I, and a colleague ran, and paid for server space, for astro imaging group/forum for many years.

When we both wanted to step down, we asked the members if one, or more of them, wanted to take on running, and funding the forum. Out of 300+ active members, not one was prepared to do so, and as such, what had been a very successful and active group, closed.

With a bit more emphasis on encouraging newcomers to microscopy, this forum would be more like Oliver Kim intended it to be. Constantly suggesting that they suggesting buy second hand industy or college 'hand me downs' without the knowledge of what they should look at when doing so, is not good advice IMO.

Of course for the experienced microscopist, by buying second hand, they can get a lot of microscope at a fraction of its original price.

More honest reviews of budget and mid range Chinese microscopes would provide a good guide for the newcomer.

I very soon learnt that such a microscope advertised as capable of 2500x is a a nonsense, just a high street refractor telescopes claiming 200x magnification are.
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#187 Post by Dave S » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:44 pm

A very informatilve input from apochronaut as always. Thank you.
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Scarodactyl
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#188 Post by Scarodactyl » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:21 pm

apochronaut wrote: The eyepiece is the intermediate optic, whether the set up is afocal or if you use a photo tube with an eyepiece installed as a relay lens.
I was just trying to clarify that an extra camera lens was not needed with the projective eyepiece, just empty space between eyepiece and sensor.
apochronaut wrote:A photo eyepiece used in that situation would have to be a) perfectly corrected for the objective or objective/telan lens combination and b)magnify the same amount as the viewing eyepiece.
With an APS-C sensor, which is approx. equivalent in size to a 20mm f.o.v., and a 2X eyepiece used afocally to photograph a f.o.v. that has been viewed with 10X eyepieces, you will get a huge f.o.v. but also magnification that is reduced by 5X. In order to present the image on a screen that roughly equates to what the eye sees at a 20mm f.o.v., the image will have to be cropped enough to compensate for the reduced magnification. There will be no gain in resolution by virtue of magnifying the original image less. Further , the likelihood of the 2X eyepiece to have been corrected for the optical tube length of the system is low.
I find this a bit confusing. You wouldn't use a projective eyepiece in an afocal setup, would you? Does that work?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures from this system.

jfiresto
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#189 Post by jfiresto » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:06 am

Dave S wrote:... I guess the moral of the story is that not all Chinese made budget to mid-price microscopes are necessarily of poor quality, and can be a good starting point for someone starting out in microscopy, with them likely to encourage, as opposed to discourage....
The big lesson I draw from the story is that microscopes can be complicated things to own, that when buying one – be it Chinese or not – to make sure the seller will support it to your satisfaction (as Bresser has!), and if they can not make things right, that they will let you return the microscope at little or no cost so that you can get something else.
-John

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#190 Post by Roldorf » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:43 pm

Bresser replied to my post inviting them to look at this thread:

Hi Alan,

thank you for pointing this out!
I have been in contact with Dave, and even if we did not have the perfect solution in the first place, we are always trying to find a satisfying solution.
Luckily we had a photo eyepiece that we could provide and it is great that everything is working now. We learnt a lot with the help from Dave and nice to see the feedback.

We enjoy microscopy ourselves and I can say I am a hobbyist as much as our customers and we are not just selling microscopes but using them a lot. All photos that you see on the webpage or in the catalogue we made ourselves. Even if they are not on the same level than the pictures of many amateurs that are able to invest much more time into one picture, we try to show the performance of our instruments and cameras the best we can.


kind regards,
Anke Morbitzer
Dipl. Chem.
Product Management Microscopy

We live in hope :D

Edit: There you go Dave, a name to go with the Freundliche Grüße. ;)
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
Optika SFX 90

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#191 Post by Dave S » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:25 pm

Nice to see that sort of response from Bresser, but based on my dealings with them, its no surprise.

If and when I upgrade my microscope, I would have no hesitation in going back to Bresser

Their customer support is a 'breath of fresh air' in today's world.

Indeed, we now have a name, and not a greeting :lol:
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#192 Post by Dave S » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:00 pm

Ok, here it is, the first image with the new setup. As a photographer, I can't say that I'm impressed, but its a start.

Bresser Trino at 100x, with a Canon EOS4000d, via a 2.5 relay lens in the photo tube.

Not an easy 'critter' to get focus on, as I was using a cavity slide, and he kept changing his depth in the water, so I had to set the focus near the surface, and grab a shot when he appeared somewhere near in focus. BTW, the water was from the Bird Bath.

Had a look a a drop of water from my newly created wildlife pond, and as expected no signs of microscopic life yet.

The image is 'cropped down', but even then, so much compression needed to post an image here. :o
IMG_0007_small.gif
IMG_0007_small.gif (367.73 KiB) Viewed 2811 times
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#193 Post by Roldorf » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:34 pm

Hi Dave congratulations on your first image post we are looking forward to many more to come.
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
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Sauerkraut
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#194 Post by Sauerkraut » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:39 pm

I think that looks really good for a microbe moving around in a cavity slide. The colors are very nice too.

MicroBob
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#195 Post by MicroBob » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:58 pm

Dave S wrote:newly created wildlife pond, and as expected no signs of microscopic life yet.
Hi Dave,
you can speed this up by adding concentrated plancton from a pond (do you have a plancton net yet?) and a bit of grass or hay.

Bob

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#196 Post by Dave S » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:22 pm

Thanks guys.

At least I have usable imaging system now, thanks to the guys at Bresser.

No, I don't have a Plancton net yet Bob, but something to consider for the future. I have a good selection of water plants in the pond, and the birds are visiting the pond to drink, so I think it will mature naturally over time. No fish, so nothing to eat any Daphnia etc, once they set up home.
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Scarodactyl
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#197 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:01 pm

Looks pretty good edge to edge, glad to see it in action!

apochronaut
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#198 Post by apochronaut » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:27 am

Dave S wrote:Ok, here it is, the first image with the new setup. As a photographer, I can't say that I'm impressed, but its a start.

Bresser Trino at 100x, with a Canon EOS4000d, via a 2.5 relay lens in the photo tube.

Not an easy 'critter' to get focus on, as I was using a cavity slide, and he kept changing his depth in the water, so I had to set the focus near the surface, and grab a shot when he appeared somewhere near in focus. BTW, the water was from the Bird Bath.

Had a look a a drop of water from my newly created wildlife pond, and as expected no signs of microscopic life yet.

The image is 'cropped down', but even then, so much compression needed to post an image here. :o

IMG_0007_small.gif
When you say 'cropped down', do you mean that you cropped it post or did the relay lens crop it?

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#199 Post by Dave S » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:57 am

I 'cropped it down', centered on the object of interest.

Although the 2.5x relay lens produces a slightly smaller field of view (magnified) than that seen visually through the 10x eyepieces in the bino head, it is not significant. A 1.6x relay lens would be a better match to the APS-C sensor in the Canon camera, but these are not only a rarity, but expensive.

There is very small amount of vignetting at the extreme edge of the FoV, but again, insignificant as far as I'm concerned.

When using achromatic objectives, as I am, 'cropping' is beneficial as the area of sharp focus diminishes, as you move toward the edge of the FoV.
Last edited by Dave S on Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#200 Post by Roldorf » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:10 pm

Hi Dave

Online image storage here https://postimages.org/ then you can simply post it between two Img tags.

Create your account with an email address.
You will receive an email from them with your password.
Go to website postimages.org
Login with your email and the password you received.
Type a gallery name and click on create new gallery.
Click on upload and drag and drop the image you want to upload.
Once uploaded click on image and share.
You will get a list of different sharing options.
I used 'Direct Link'. Click on the far right on the folder image on direct link and it will say copied.
Go to your microbehunter post click 'Img' and paste between the tags.

You will then not have to crop your images and members will be able to see the full image.
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
Optika SFX 90

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#201 Post by Dave S » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:50 pm

Thanks Alan, I'll have a look at that.

I have a Flickr page/account that I use for my photography, and also use Canon's Irista, but your link could be useful for any microscopy images.
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#202 Post by Roldorf » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:24 pm

Dave
Good thing is the image display's on the forum page just like when you post direct on the forum see here:-
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7838
so you don't have to go off site to see it and you don't use up your forum allowance.
Storage is unlimited and free.
Alan
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Optika SFX 90

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#203 Post by Dave S » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:06 pm

I like 'Free' Alan, as you can't get cheaper than that :D
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#204 Post by Dave S » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:21 pm

Alan, I set up an account with postimages.org, and have uploaded one of my macro shots, to test it out.

So here goes: :)

https://postimg.cc/jCcHXLjf
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#205 Post by Dave S » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:25 pm

It doesn't seem to appear directly on the page, as posting the bb code from Flickr does, just the 'link', albeit it does link to the image I uploaded to their site.
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#206 Post by Dave S » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:26 pm

Duplicate post deleted.
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#207 Post by Roldorf » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:37 pm

Hi Dave you need to use the 'Direct link' which is the second one down on the share page

Enclose it inside the Img tags (not the URL tags)
Img (Direct link here) Img
Alan
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Optika SFX 90

Dave S
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#208 Post by Dave S » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:26 pm

Ok Alan, thanks for that, so here we go again using that method :)

https://i.postimg.cc/4d1h2Wk7/478497543 ... ef51-o.jpg

Hmm!!, same result. I guess I am not following your instructions in the way they are intended :?:
Brunel SP100 (with 4x, 10x, 40x,60x, and 100x (oil) plan objectives), and Canon EOS 4000d Camera (microscopy use only)

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#209 Post by Roldorf » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:19 pm

Here it is again with a real link:-

Image

You can always pick Preview at the bottom of the 'post a reply' page to check that it shows before you Submit the post.

You need to use the [img] tags and not the URL tags
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
Optika SFX 90

Roldorf
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Re: Microscope Cameras?

#210 Post by Roldorf » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:27 pm

Having said all that it's a great picture, how did you take it?
Alan
Bresser Science Infinity 4x 10x 40x 60x 100x oil. Canon EOS 4000d
Optika SFX 90

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