Camera taking bad bright field images

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micro
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Camera taking bad bright field images

#1 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:52 am

I have a panasonic lumix g85. It takes decent enough dark field pictures and videos but doesn't do that well with bright field. I don't know if it is an issue with the camera or the adapter. When using a cellphone with no adapter the images come out better, the dark field pictures are also better with the cell phone. The g85 is definitely better than my phone because it has a higher megapixel count but I don't know if that is only with the attachable lens or what. The g85 takes better pictures of things like trees and cars but that is with a lens attached. I've tried using different camera settings but nothing seems to increase image quality. I'm pretty sure the problem is the adapter, I know it does a 2x zoom to remove vignetting and it makes images blurry. But maybe there is a setting I haven't tried that would help. In some of my videos there was a blue tint but I fixed that by changing white balance. Anyway my question is does it look like my videos have bad quality because of the camera or the adapter?

G85 footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g01YtCzYU3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61DNLSbNC0&t go to 4:30

Cellphone footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqiEjAzquw

Panasonic LUMIX G85MK
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MX ... UTF8&psc=1

2X Microscope Adapter for Micro 4/3 Mirrorless Cameras. Fits 23mm, 30mm and 30.5mm Ports
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H4 ... UTF8&psc=1

gastrotrichman
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#2 Post by gastrotrichman » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:38 am

If your scope has a field diaphragm, you might check to ensure it's stopped down to "match" the objective. A wide-open field diaphragm can produce "washed-out" images similar to your bright field images. If the field diaphragm is OK, I would check the condenser diaphragm to ensure it also "matches" the objective.

Incidentally, I noticed a gastrotrich making its way north near the bottom-center of two of your clips.
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Scarodactyl
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#3 Post by Scarodactyl » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:50 am

Maybe flare from inside the adapter? This wouls not be such an issue in darkfield but would kill contrast in brightfield.
If it's the same generic Chinese 2x adapter most sellera have it gets pretty variable results from system to system. The amazon listing looks a bit dofferent though.
What microscope are you using? There are a few name brand m4/3 adapters out there which might get better results, and demand is lower than ones for aps-c or full frame.

micro
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#4 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:29 am

gastrotrichman wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:38 am
If your scope has a field diaphragm, you might check to ensure it's stopped down to "match" the objective. A wide-open field diaphragm can produce "washed-out" images similar to your bright field images. If the field diaphragm is OK, I would check the condenser diaphragm to ensure it also "matches" the objective.

Incidentally, I noticed a gastrotrich making its way north near the bottom-center of two of your clips.
A lot of gastrotric's live in my ecosphere. I'll check the diaphragm and see if that's the problem.

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#5 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:30 am

Scarodactyl wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:50 am
Maybe flare from inside the adapter? This wouls not be such an issue in darkfield but would kill contrast in brightfield.
If it's the same generic Chinese 2x adapter most sellera have it gets pretty variable results from system to system. The amazon listing looks a bit dofferent though.
What microscope are you using? There are a few name brand m4/3 adapters out there which might get better results, and demand is lower than ones for aps-c or full frame.
Microscope is Swift 380T . Are there name brand 4/3 adapters? When I looked before I couldn't find any besides this one from amazon.

NA 1.25 Abbe condenser and iris diaphragm

https://www.amazon.com/Magnification-Si ... NrPXRydWU=


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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#7 Post by MicroBob » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:54 am

Do you have to refocus when you change from eyepiece to camera or are botz parfocal?

micro
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#8 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:55 am

MicroBob wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:54 am
Do you have to refocus when you change from eyepiece to camera or are botz parfocal?
I have to refocus

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#9 Post by Scarodactyl » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:10 am

micro wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:30 am
Scarodactyl wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:50 am
Maybe flare from inside the adapter? This wouls not be such an issue in darkfield but would kill contrast in brightfield.
If it's the same generic Chinese 2x adapter most sellera have it gets pretty variable results from system to system. The amazon listing looks a bit dofferent though.
What microscope are you using? There are a few name brand m4/3 adapters out there which might get better results, and demand is lower than ones for aps-c or full frame.
Microscope is Swift 380T . Are there name brand 4/3 adapters? When I looked before I couldn't find any besides this one from amazon.
Actually this was my mistake, the adapters I was thinking of (martin microscope mm99) are actually for camcorders, so likely not so good here. And checking again what's on eBay is way too expensive.
More importantly I was wrong to suggest this kind of adapter jn the first place. Micro four thirds cameras are usually pretty easy to adapt since the sensor is small--a 2x relay factor is overkill, as the image the scope puts put is likely plenty big enough as-is. It looks like the trinocular adapter on your scope is held on with a thumb screw on the side. If you remove that and hold your camera (sans lens) over the opening, you will likely find a height where you get a well-sized parfocal image. Figuring out how to suspend your camera at that height would require a few more measurements and some improvisation on parts, but the end result should be a lot better.

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#10 Post by 75RR » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:12 am

Are you adjusting the brightness when you change from Darkfield to Brightfield?

Make sure to do by varying the voltage/amps rather than raising or lowering the condenser.

The Camera is more sensitive to light than our eyes, check the camera screen to see what the image looks like.

It is best to put all camera settings on manual.
The g85 is definitely better than my phone because it has a higher megapixel count
Make sure to check pixel size - in microscopy pixel size rather than number of pixels is the critical factor.

Run through Charles Krebs tips to make sure your settings are as they should be.

http://www.krebsmicro.com/pdf/trinoc_a3.pdf
http://krebsmicro.com/parfocal/index.html
http://www.krebsmicro.com/
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micro
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#11 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:40 am

I just put the camera on the trinocular port without the adapter and it seems like the image quality might be better. The issue now is that there is no seal so outside light is getting in. I'm thinking maybe I will break the glass out of the adapter and then I can use the adapter without the 2x vignetting part.

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#12 Post by 75RR » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:03 am

I'm thinking maybe I will break the glass out of the adapter and then I can use the adapter without the 2x vignetting part.
That might work. Though ideally you would find a way to take it apart. Does the adapter have a way to adjust the camera height?
75RR wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:12 am
Make sure to check pixel size - in microscopy pixel size rather than number of pixels is the critical factor.
Just worked out your pixel size, came out at 3.7µm which is fine. Mine are 4.2µm

Would be interesting to know what size your phone's pixels are.
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#13 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:21 am

https://i.imgur.com/oYGyB41.jpg

What kind of screw driver does this need?

Cellphone is LG G6 with 13 megapixels

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#14 Post by micro » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:36 am

The adapter doesn't have a height adjustment but I guess I can work around that more or less

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#15 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:42 am

micro wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:21 am
https://i.imgur.com/oYGyB41.jpg
What kind of screw driver does this need?
.

An Allen Key

Available in sets of good or bad quality ... but if you can find a decent tool supplier, buy a selection of the small sizes individually.
For these small screws they need to be a very good fit.

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#16 Post by MicroBob » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:59 am

micro wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:55 am
MicroBob wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:54 am
Do you have to refocus when you change from eyepiece to camera or are botz parfocal?
I have to refocus
This means that you are not using the objective as intended. This can introduce image degradation. Perhaps you can arrange the camera in a way that makes refocussing unnecessary?

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#17 Post by micro » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:50 am

I took off part of the trinocular port and held the camera up over it without the adapter and the images are definitely better. I also figured out the distance needed so I don't have to refocus when switching back and forth with the eyepieces to the trinocular port. But now there is a problem with blue dots/pixels appearing in both brightfield and darkfield images. I guess this is lens flare or something caused by the light being too bright but I don't know how to fix it. Maybe I need to make the opening smaller so light doesn't pass through as much? Adjusting the condenser doesn't work because if I lower it then the lighting is overall too dark. I figure I can carve my own adapter out of wood or something so the camera can be in the right spot. Or I can get one of those mechanical camera arm mounts.

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#18 Post by 75RR » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:14 am

I took off part of the trinocular port and held the camera up over it without the adapter and the images are definitely better.
Sounds like you are using the intermediate image, that right?
But now there is a problem with blue dots/pixels appearing in both brightfield and darkfield images.
Could be light is reflecting off something. Perhaps a hood of dark material will help.
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#19 Post by micro » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:20 am

75RR wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:14 am
I took off part of the trinocular port and held the camera up over it without the adapter and the images are definitely better.
Sounds like you are using the intermediate image, that right?
But now there is a problem with blue dots/pixels appearing in both brightfield and darkfield images.
Could be light is reflecting off something. Perhaps a hood of dark material will help.
idk what intermediate image means

There is no outside light getting in that I can tell because I am using part of the adapter I had before and I placed a piece of cardboard with a hole over the port

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#20 Post by micro » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:29 am

I just took a video to show whats happening but the blue pixels don't show up in the completed video file. I only see them through the camera screen so idk what thats about.

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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#21 Post by 75RR » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:30 am

idk what intermediate image means
You should look through the links I posted above.

Repeating here:

http://www.krebsmicro.com/pdf/trinoc_a3.pdf
http://krebsmicro.com/parfocal/index.html
http://www.krebsmicro.com/

Here is a page from the first one ...
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#22 Post by micro » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:33 am

This is the setup so far I just need to make something more secure
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Re: Camera taking bad bright field images

#23 Post by 75RR » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:48 am

If you can secure that and there is no vibration then that should work fine, assuming the coverage of the field of view is acceptable.

Make sure that the microscope is setup correctly before fixing the camera height.

Not sure if you have Köhler, if not then place the Condenser just a couple of mm or so below the slide.

Parfocality requires that the view through the eyepieces and the camera be simultaneously in focus.

Looking at the Swift SW350T phototube you would seem to be using the intermediate image.
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