Culturing a food chain

[DaveH]

Should have read your previous post a bit better, evaporated sea salt sounds good to me, now to boil or not to boil, some would say boil to sterilise it but I wouldn't there might be some handy life forms lurking.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Very, very helpful. Thanks Dave:)

Yes, I don't want to initially breed huge numbers via the cysts, doesn't make sense, might even lead to a crash.

I ended up with a 5.5 gallon tank (will get a bigger one once I've convinced myself I have the talent to keep all these creatures alive).

I guess it comes down to wanting to breed early season or late season shrimp.

But then:

Specific Gravity:
Rotifers: 1.0075 - 1.026
Copepods: 1.020 to 1.025 (crapshot, as the various species like different sg)
Artemia: 1.024-1.028

I guess that leaves me with 1.024-1.025; therefore, spring it is!

With a 5.5 gallon tank, do you think something approximately 1/8-1/4 teaspoon (i.e. 'a pinch') of cysts would be an appropriate start?

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Should have read your previous post a bit better, evaporated sea salt sounds good to me, now to boil or not to boil, some would say boil to sterilise it but I wouldn't there might be some handy life forms lurking.

Dave

Lurking in the salt or in the water? I could just make a concentrate, i.e. as much salt as a liter of distilled water will take and still remain water?

Shawn

[DaveH]

Very, very helpful. Thanks Dave:)

Yes, I don't want to initially breed huge numbers via the cysts, doesn't make sense, might even lead to a crash.

I ended up with a 5.5 gallon tank (will get a bigger one once I've convinced myself I have the talent to keep all these creatures alive).

I guess it comes down to wanting to breed early season or late season shrimp.

But then:

Specific Gravity:
Rotifers: 1.0075 - 1.026
Copepods: 1.020 to 1.025 (crapshot, as the various species like different sg)
Artemia: 1.024-1.028

I guess that leaves me with 1.024-1.025; therefore, spring it is!

With a 5.5 gallon tank, do you think something approximately 1/8-1/4 teaspoon (i.e. 'a pinch') of cysts would be an appropriate start?

Shawn

If you need 1.025 for the Copepods then that's a good starting point the Artemia will be fine, I think you can do a lot with a 5.5 gallon tank, the problem will be trying to start it off to quick. The light cycle will be important, if you are using artificial light I think I would fill the tank and leave the light on 24 hours a day until the algae starts to form and then introduce the other life forms starting at the bottom of the chain, I was thinking cysts lurking in the salt. Are you collecting the sea water or buying the salt.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Bought the salt. I am planning on putting these two products into the mix, in the aquarium, and letting it sit without any live animals for a week. I've also read that putting a couple of dead artemia in the tank is a good idea, too.

As mentioned, I'll be using Prime, and I'm getting this stuff on my way home:

http://www.petsmart.ca/fish/cycling-aid ... 3Dcategory

[DaveH]

Bought the salt. I am planning on putting these two products into the mix, in the aquarium, and letting it sit without any live animals for a week. I've also read that putting a couple of dead artemia in the tank is a good idea, too.

As mentioned, I'll be using Prime, and I'm getting this stuff on my way home:

http://www.petsmart.ca/fish/cycling-aid ... 3Dcategory

Not sure the Prime is needed are you setting up a filter system in your tank.

Dave

[DaveH]

Hi I'm beginning to think that either your local fish/pet shop or myself are totally on the wrong wavelength.
I think the shop are thinking this strange chap wants to set up a marine aquarium to keep brine shrimp in.
I'm thinking you want to try and set up an ecosystem.

Both are different projects in my mind.

Dave

[shawngibson]

I suppose it's a bit of both at this point. Any confusion by either you or those I'm buying from is my fault.

I fell apart at the bottom, via having live autotrophs, and at the top, via the above notes about top level predators needing 10x herbivores, and herbivores needing 10x autotrophs.

Right now, I'll be feeding frozen phytoplankton to rotifers, copepods, and brine shrimp. The last 3 can apparently co-exist, and all eat phytoplankton, which I will feed to them.

2 things (out of probably dozens of things I've not even considered) are, can I add some sort of animal that eats detritus? Other than the rotifers, the rest are Ecdysozoa, and they'll all be molting exoskeletons regularly. Second, since these creatures all eat phytoplankton, I need some sort of population control. Maybe a single male and a single female endler would work, and if they spawn, I can sell the fry or give them away.

So at this point, I'm a bit further ahead than I was in my first post, but I'm still not remotely sure this will work lol. However, now that I've got a phytoplankton-zooplankton-brine shrimp setup established, and have learned a bit more about keeping everything alive, hopefully I can keep everything alive while I continue to learn...

I'm meeting a successful phyto/zooplankton breeder/distributor tomorrow; hopefully he will have some advice.

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Bought the salt. I am planning on putting these two products into the mix, in the aquarium, and letting it sit without any live animals for a week. I've also read that putting a couple of dead artemia in the tank is a good idea, too.

As mentioned, I'll be using Prime, and I'm getting this stuff on my way home:

http://www.petsmart.ca/fish/cycling-aid ... 3Dcategory

Not sure the Prime is needed are you setting up a filter system in your tank.

Dave

Missed this. Just a mechanical filter. Would prefer not to, but I've read a lot of things about live rocks that make me think that's 'advanced' at this point.

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn
I don't think it's your fault at all just caused by having one line conversations, things I have experience in are keeping tropical fish both freshwater and marine and breeding freshwater fish at both hobbyists and commercial level. My 45 year obsession with brine shrimp started around 1970 with my first hatching of shrimp to feed some fish fry.

I saw my first rotifer a week or so ago so I'm not sure what there requirements would be, my understanding was rightly or wrongly that is would be a body of water with life forms in that required no maintenance although I think you will have to provide light and heat, the population of any life forms will stabilise at a level the system will support, you may have noticed some comments from the guys that keep culture jars that the population changes in cycles.

Aquariums are a totally different concept, they are grossly overstocked and this is achieved by using efficient filtration that requires both water flow and oxygen, hence the need to build large bacteria beds.

I think if understanding is correct you will be looking at quite small populations of the various life forms, the stumbling block will be maintaining the system until it matures.

Dave

[charlie g]

I appreciate your shareing your experience in stewarship of fish and aquatic systems, Dave H., thanks.

I too was nudgeing Shawn to an 'mini balanced community' (a microcosm), Shawn. But there too are the 'abiotic factors' we all live with: lighting, temperatures, indoors/outdoors system, tank size, aeration method, circulation methods...and ...gulp...salinity/water chemistry. Saltwater systems can get very demanding...fresh water system can be fascinating...and cheap!

Please try and look into this manual: " Plankton Culture Manual", 5th edition (May,2001) by: Florida Aqua Farms.Inc.

Everything you ellect to tackel with Artemia brineshrimp as a keystone level of heterotroph...you could do with fresh water crusteaceans 'cheaply'...copepods, daphnia, ostracods, water mites, rotifers, flatworm, Gammerus shrinp...regular crayfish thrown too...along with snails...and fish can be kept too, and water bettles...I'll calm down...joke, joke.

Try and take a look at the manual I suggest, all the best...charlie guevara

[shawngibson]

Hi Shawn
I don't think it's your fault at all just caused by having one line conversations, things I have experience in are keeping tropical fish both freshwater and marine and breeding freshwater fish at both hobbyists and commercial level. My 45 year obsession with brine shrimp started around 1970 with my first hatching of shrimp to feed some fish fry.

I saw my first rotifer a week or so ago so I'm not sure what there requirements would be, my understanding was rightly or wrongly that is would be a body of water with life forms in that required no maintenance although I think you will have to provide light and heat, the population of any life forms will stabilise at a level the system will support, you may have noticed some comments from the guys that keep culture jars that the population changes in cycles.

Aquariums are a totally different concept, they are grossly overstocked and this is achieved by using efficient filtration that requires both water flow and oxygen, hence the need to build large bacteria beds.

I think if understanding is correct you will be looking at quite small populations of the various life forms, the stumbling block will be maintaining the system until it matures.

Dave

Well, it STARTED as a thought experiment to create a completely self-sufficient environment, light and heat notwithstanding, but this tank has turned into me feeding the zooplankton with phytoplankton, so I am in essence adding light,head, and autotrophs. I think?

If and when I can stabilize the environment, I've read about a very beautiful symbiotic relationship between a certain goby and a certain shrimp, which could aid in population control, and a certain soft coral as well.

Am I correct that any brine shrimp cysts I add, at the beginning they will float to the bottom (even with proper aeration and light) and that empty shells will float to the top? In other words, if I have no cysts on the bottom a day later, they've mostly hatched?

Rotifers are beautiful bilateral protostomes, but they don't molt like ecdysozoans/arthropods/copepods/shrimp. I've got a bottle ready to add to the tank.

I spoke with the person who supplied me with the copepods and he ensured me that my copepods/rotifers are in good condition. This leads me to my microscope. I can't see anything at 4x or 10x, and those lenses work very well. However at 40x and 100x, I can't see anything, but those lenses have never seen anything, which means, either I have bad lenses/objectives or I don't know what I'm doing, which is quite possible. In other words, maybe copepods and rotifers require higher magnification, which I haven't dialled in yet.

I appreciate your shareing your experience in stewarship of fish and aquatic systems, Dave H., thanks.

I too was nudgeing Shawn to an 'mini balanced community' (a microcosm), Shawn. But there too are the 'abiotic factors' we all live with: lighting, temperatures, indoors/outdoors system, tank size, aeration method, circulation methods...and ...gulp...salinity/water chemistry. Saltwater systems can get very demanding...fresh water system can be fascinating...and cheap!

Please try and look into this manual: " Plankton Culture Manual", 5th edition (May,2001) by: Florida Aqua Farms.Inc.

Everything you ellect to tackel with Artemia brineshrimp as a keystone level of heterotroph...you could do with fresh water crusteaceans 'cheaply'...copepods, daphnia, ostracods, water mites, rotifers, flatworm, Gammerus shrinp...regular crayfish thrown too...along with snails...and fish can be kept too, and water bettles...I'll calm down...joke, joke.

Try and take a look at the manual I suggest, all the best...charlie guevara

I will buy this manual, Charlie, thanks! Per my other post: "My tank is currently no stess for ammonia, nitrate, low stress for nitrite, sucking bad for alkalynity and ideal for ph.".

I've since added a bit more Prime and then an hour later more bacteria. I'm not sure how to increase alkalinity; I'm at 80, should be 180. edit: sg is on spot, between 1.020 and 1.025. Temp is 80 degrees F.

The reason I went marine is brine shrimp are salt, copepods are salt, I like arthropods...but you are saying I can do this with fresh water? As I've said, I'd also like a tank with Daphnia as the top predator, and that's a fresh environment. And I could introduce a male and female endler for population control (so I guess they would be the top predator, not the Daphnia). Just not sure about the lower level food chain. Can I introduce copepods in a freshwater environment which will reproduce?

I feel eminent failure at this point...

Shawn

[DaveH]

Hi thanks for the kind comments Charlie G you are dead right regarding freshwater being easer.

Shawn there's no guarantee the hatched egg shells will float in still water why not take a jar of water from the tank and hatch the shrimp and then transfer them into the main tank that will stop you wondering if you have any live shrimp or not. PH and Alkalinity are related, PH is what you have if that makes sense and Alkalinity is how robust the PH is with regards to changing, what changes PH mostly wast from fish and rotting food in a marina aquarium. You can buy a buffer from the fish shop if you feel it's an issue, I would advise jut keep an eye on the PH and take action if it's unstable, I think that you will be looking at small numbers of each life form so it should remain stable, if you put even the smallest fish in the system it will eat all your shrimp in next to no time and if it can't find anything to eat it will starve to death, the system is just not big enough to support a small fish. The population will find its own level depending on resources once the tank starts growing algae on the sides you will a system that should work with brine shrimp as the top of the chain.

Dave

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn how is your tank doing, did you find the Rotifers in the end and are the brine shrimp still alive in the mason jar.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Hi Dave, Pretty sure I screwed up. After putting in a LOT of live 24-hour old brine shrimp (visibly alive by eye) I came home from work the next day and it looked like there were a lot less shrimp. Next day, got home, the tank appeared empty.

So I figured it's time to give up and move to Daphnia. First thing I did was pull the filter and throw it in the tank, to start deconstructing.

The filter turned the water almost completely opaque. Everything was in the filter.

Tonight, I have a tank with thriving brine shrimp, but under the scope, that is the only life form I see. If there are any copepods or rotifers in the tank, they are part of a swirl of detritus at the bottom, and have no movement.

I removed the filter.

I'm gonna restart at step 1: raise artemia to adulthood.

Frustrating. And expensive lol.

Shawn

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

Sorry to hear that you have been disappointed at the moment, brine shrimp are hardy little critters.
If you still have the filter media put it back in the tank you never know what's hidden in it.
I found a water bear last week but had to put it back in the culture jar now it's like looking for a lost ring on a sandy beach.

Grow the brine shrimp on and let the tank settle down for a number of weeks, when algae starts to grow on the sides of the tank only keep the front glass clean, when you have good growth of algae I'm sure you will be suppressed what's living in it be patient, if you put it in the tank then I'm sure something survived.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Thanks Dave. I assume you mean put the filter itself directly in the tank, and not turn on the filter pump? I can do that:)

I'll have to research how to properly filter for microbes as this kit clearly is too big/powerful. Maybe some brine shrimp mesh placed over the filter uptake (if I may call it that) would work?

edit: Also, is it possible to somehow separate an area of the tank so that it has water, but no life forms? I'd like to have an area where I can properly get samples for testing, and I'm sure having a couple hundred brine shrimp and whatever else a in 5ml testing jar would affect an ammonia test, for example.

Shawn

[DaveH]

Thanks Dave. I assume you mean put the filter itself directly in the tank, and not turn on the filter pump? I can do that:)

I'll have to research how to properly filter for microbes as this kit clearly is too big/powerful. Maybe some brine shrimp mesh placed over the filter uptake (if I may call it that) would work?

edit: Also, is it possible to somehow separate an area of the tank so that it has water, but no life forms? I'd like to have an area where I can properly get samples for testing, and I'm sure having a couple hundred brine shrimp and whatever else a in 5ml testing jar would affect an ammonia test, for example.

Shawn

Hi Shawn

Yes I assume the filter has media inside either sponge or cartridges, if not just take the pump top of and put the filter case and media in, you could find a piece of plain net curtain and make a tiny net that you could take samples from or they sell a set of brine shrimp sieves that you could hold in the water to take samples from, but that's more money (if it's not free it's not for me).

It sounds like you have a lot of shrimp expect the population to decline until it reaches a level the tank can support, don't give up in the first year, it's only humans that try to live at the speed of light the rest of the planets population live at the speed they always have.

Has your tank turned into a bubbling mess if so there are some other things you can try to settle it down.

Dave

[charlie g]

Consider a simple: bubble box filter..these easily regulate current of flow...and achieve tank aeration (sp?).

[billbillt]

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for posting about your adventures with culturing a food chain.. I view this as a very interesting endeavor... Please keep us updated on your progress!...

Regards,
BillT

[charlie g]

A simple bubble box filter is the only component a microcosm needs besides proper natural lighting...for a lot of microcosms, perhaps configure one for your brine shrimp project. charlie guevara

[billbillt]

I did a search for "bubble box filter" to no avail.. Is there any way you could give more info on what you use?..

Thanks!
BillT

[DaveH]

I did a search for "bubble box filter" to no avail.. Is there any way you could give more info on what you use?..

Thanks!
BillT

Search corner aquarium filter that will bring up the results you are looking for.

Good idea from Charlie g that should work well without stirring the tank up to much, what have you got living in your tank Charlie g.

Dave

[charlie g]

I am trying to offer Shawn ideas to keep his food chain system simple! This buble-box filter and $5 tank..I set up with duckweed a few native plants(finger lakes/US location)...and native fish collected from the area.

Shawn wants his setup indoors...this setup I had indoors.

[DaveH]

Yes I agree simple is best, your tank looks well matured, you hit the nail on the head with the filter, my suggestion involved a plastic bottle. The little air operated filters are very 1970s I must admit I thought they had gone out of fashion, but says otherwise. When this thread started my thoughts were towards providing light and heat only, as I have achieved this many times in the past. I think the main ingredient to success is time.

Dave

[DaveH]

Hi just ic case there are any crossed wires, my suggestion to put the filter media in the tank was to preserve any life in it as it appears everything in the tank ended up in the filter. Even if most of it died there should be some remnants to protect the next generation.

Dave

[shawngibson]

I understood:) You said it well.

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Consider a simple: bubble box filter..these easily regulate current of flow...and achieve tank aeration (sp?).

If I wrap a large brine shrimp mesh around a standard filter, does that accomplish something similar?

[shawngibson]

If the only large organism in the tank is artemia, can I introduce live spirulina into the tank? All phytoplankton I've been feeding is dead/genetically engineered to not reproduce.

[DaveH]

Hi maybe not if its to powerful everything will get stuck to the sides, as everything ended up inside the filter I think you are taking a chance. Charlie g has a good idea with the corner filter, you don't want filtration as in marine aquarium all you want is gentle flow. You can make a simple filter out of a drinks bottle I can describe it if you want but the corner filters are inexpensive as they run on air.

Dave