ringing cements

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Milou
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ringing cements

#1 Post by Milou » Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:28 am

Hello,

At least I've found a paper about several possible cements to use with a ringing table :
http://s600401157.initial-website.co.uk/ringing0b.pdfA

I'm new in these techniques and I would appreciate some comment about the one(s) you generally use :-)

Anybody have experience with shellac?
If yes, do you make solution by yourself or buy it?

Thank you for your help

Hobbyst46
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Re: ringing cements

#2 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:43 am

Thanks for posting the link. On a first look, I like that article, because it points to the important required feature of resistance to solvents. Many other texts that praise ringing in general forget to mention that point. Note that immersion oil is not only an oil - it is a solvent, although slow-acting.

Shellac can be purchased in the form of brown-gold flakes, in paint and building materials stores. It stays fine for many years if kept dry. It is benign - not a pollutant, not harmful, a nice natural product.

For home use, as ringing material: You need a tiny amount. Place the flakes in a small hermetically sealed glass vial containing methylated spirit, stopper the vial and shake well. Methanol is a good solvent, but volatile and harmful. Ethanol is safer and is an acceptable solvent.
Anyway, work in a ventilated space.

For ringing: if you do not have a ringing table, the shellac solution can be applied from a small diaposable syringe (and a thin needle, say #23). Shellac is damaged by water. Shellac dissolves in alcohols. Poor resistance to immersion oil. So, it can be OK for slides that are kept dry.

I have tested several potential ringing materials for resistance to immersion oil. Humbrol and similar model airplanes paints failed. Hammerite direct-on-rust is very good.

Milou
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Re: ringing cements

#3 Post by Milou » Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:08 am

Thanks for your comment

Shellac as a natural product - not a pollutant, not harmful, as you underline seems to me interesting !
I already use it for wood buffer varnish......

Up to now I've no ringing table, but I'll make one following ideas seen in this forum :-)
Before, I could try with a syringe as you suggest

Furthermore I'll make slides with genitalia not requiring an immersion objective to observe them.

Phill Brown
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Location: Devon UK.

Re: ringing cements

#4 Post by Phill Brown » Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:07 am

I have Liberon black polish,shellac.
Easy to get good results,touch in antique slides if the ring is damaged.
Glossy but one of the best for sticking to glass.
Good 000 sable,only dip the very tip and build in several goes.
Hammerite satin black adheres to glass very well,tough enough when cured,not tried the spray can version but may be more economical to spray a small amount into a cap or container as required.
I have a Brunel table which works very well,Brunel ringing paint doesn't compare well,found it to be blobby and doesn't stick to glass very well.
Also a Flatters & Garnett table which doesn't have the issue with slides that overhang the edge of the table with the slip off centre.
Definitely worth having a go.

Greg Howald
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Re: ringing cements

#5 Post by Greg Howald » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:41 pm

My hands are not steady due to essential tremor, making it difficult for me to make rings. I developed a method using very thin neoprene o-rings.
Greg

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: ringing cements

#6 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:29 pm

I have good luck with black nail polish plus it's useful for goth parties. Euparal will dissolve it. Omnimount won't.

Shellac I wouldn't trust. I have quite a bit of experience in cabinetmaking, and shellac by itself is relatively fragile.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Phill Brown
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Re: ringing cements

#7 Post by Phill Brown » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:40 pm

I got plenty cheap/free slides and second best slips to practice with, easy enough to clean off and go again or recycle.
Shellac doesn't get flexed on glass.
It can be ideal and durable.
Used as adhesive for holding jewels in lever escape timepieces.
Many still stuck perfectly after well over a hundred years of ticking 18000 times an hour.
Anchoring the palm or finger tips near the work reduces the effect of shakes.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: ringing cements

#8 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:53 pm

yes but i would hope you would be keeping your antique timepieces away from chemicals and water. shellac will fold immediately in contact with xylene or alcohol, will absorb water over a long period, I don't know how it would fare against glycerol or immersion oil, but i wouldn't trust it to not soften. High humidity can cause a shellac finish to soften and get sticky in some cases, particularly when inexpertly applied.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: ringing cements

#9 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:08 pm

The ancients it seems used asphatum, the same material used in "Japanning" tools such as planes. This is easily done today as well by dissolving some roofing tar in turpentine. It's quite robust, as testified by roofs and old slides, but smelly and dirty. I have used it as a wood stain, but this application would call for much less turpentine.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Phill Brown
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Re: ringing cements

#10 Post by Phill Brown » Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:40 pm

I use napther based solvents for ultrasonic watch cleaning.
A gentle breath and a clean silk tie should suffice.
Likely enough alcohol/meths/xylene in the breath to dissolve shellac and it's best to leave vintage slides for the morning after.
Last edited by Phill Brown on Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hobbyst46
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Re: ringing cements

#11 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:49 pm

I should have mentioned in post #2 above, that my test of resistance to immersion oil involved 12 hours or more of contact of the ringing material with the oil. Hence the results I got might have differed from those in the article linked by the OP. I tested maybe 12 nail polishes (Can't remember exactly) from different brands; they all failed. Gel nail polish was better than others, but it can be too viscous for convenient ringing.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: ringing cements

#12 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:05 pm

Naphtha seems ok but I don't know of many naphtha based mountants. In the failed ringing experiment with nail polish the ringing material crept into the euparal, clouding it. I guess you could do some experiments, but as I said I wouldn't trust it if you are using a mountant that is based in a chemical that shellac readily dissolves in, like balsam or omnimount or euparal. I don't know about glycerol or PVA. Air mounts might work. I like shellac and always keep some at hand that I mix myself, but I wouldn't use it as a ringing material as it is not very chemically resistant.

Also, if you clean your slides with window cleaner, as some might think to do, the shellac will be damaged. There's a lot of things that will mess up shellac!
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: ringing cements

#13 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:14 pm

Maybe I'm wrong about the xylene, though. Might test later.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Milou
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Re: ringing cements

#14 Post by Milou » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:24 pm

Thank you all for comments
Therefore I can see shellac is not very used.......

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: ringing cements

#15 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:37 pm

Well if you do use it, I have some tips from the furniture trade:

Firstly, don't use the canned stuff at the hardware store. It might work, or it might have sat on the shelf for a long time. Shellac doesn't like to sit in the alcohol for more than a few months. If you mix your own, you want to get an alcohol that has the smallest fraction of water possible, as the inclusion of water is what leads to sticky shellac that doesn't set well. I am unfamiliar with the liberon product, but someone has got good results out of it. You will want the "dewaxed" flakes as the chemicals used in clearing are chosen for their ability to dissolve wax.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

EYE C U
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Re: ringing cements

#16 Post by EYE C U » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:09 pm

I've been using paint pens. as many layers as necessary. nylon washers for thick items
Last edited by EYE C U on Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Greg Howald
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Re: ringing cements

#17 Post by Greg Howald » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:10 pm

Having tried shellac I have to say no. It dries brittle on glass and flakes right off with no effort at all
Greg

ldflan
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Re: ringing cements

#18 Post by ldflan » Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:25 am

Glyptal, typically. If there is going to be a call to use solvents to clean the slide at some point, I give the exterior layers of Glyptal a coating with gum arabic over the top. Quick dry nail polish if drying speed is important, or to "tack" the coverslip down. Much depends on what your mounting medium is. PVP is an interesting possibility I have been playing with, with some success, as the base layer.

microcosmos
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Re: ringing cements

#19 Post by microcosmos » Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:07 am

Image

I have used ebony-coloured polyurethane wood varnish with some success on slides of paper fibres mounted in 99% glycerol. Glycerol is not really a permanent mountant so I needed something to seal it.

I didn't want to use nail varnish because I needed the sealant to be resistant to both the immersion oil and the ethanol that is used to clean off the immersion oil.

I've read that polyurethane is inert to alcohol and water, although I'm not sure how resistant it is to immersion oil - the oil didn't touch the polyurethane during observation and only fleetingly contacted it when it was being wiped off with the ethanol.

According to the label, the polyurethane is heat-, scratch- and impact-resistant.

Image

I didn't mind not having a perfect circle so I simply used a paintbrush to apply the varnish. You can use it straight from the can after shaking it to mix. I let it cure overnight and then I applied a second coating to make sure it was leakproof. The solvents are toxic and volatile so the procedures have to be done in a well-ventilated place. The ebony colour gives it a really classy look.

I noticed that polyurethane hasn't been listed in the various documents and posts above. Does it work well? Are there any drawbacks?

My inspiration for making these dark rings came from the Micrarium at the Grant Museum of Zoology at University College London. When I did my slides I hadn't joined this forum and had absolutely no idea what substance the rings were made of, so I "discovered" polyurethane while trying to find something that was looked similar and had the required properties.

Image

ldflan
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Re: ringing cements

#20 Post by ldflan » Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:03 am

"I have used ebony-coloured polyurethane wood varnish with some success on slides of paper fibres mounted in 99% glycerol. Glycerol is not really a permanent mountant so I needed something to seal it."

Polyurethane varnish is a really good thought! I think many polyurethanes bond very well to glass, and are used for windshield repair and such. Please let us know how it works over the longer term. Also if you start to use media other than glycerol, please report on how well they work together.

The nicest looking ringing cement I have ever tried is a classic asphalt varnish made by a local company that specializes in marine products. The stuff lays on beautifully and looks fantastic, but alas it tends to leach asphalt into many mounting media that I like to use, including gum Damar in turpentine, so it's not something I use.

KurtM on this forum swears by black Testor's model paint, I think with Euparal as the mountant. I have seen some of his slides, and they are beautifully ringed, with a very classy look... so that might be a good option for you. I can't speak to longevity of the Testor's enamel, or how well it works with glycerol, but it does look really nice and appears to lay on smoothly.

Glyptal 1201 red enamel used to be commonly recommended in the sparse literature on the subject I have seen from the 1960s-1970s on. (Before that, you see recommendations for uncommon things like "gold size" and asphalt varnish.) With some exceptions, I have had generally good luck with red Glyptal when used with a broad variety of mounting media, though you may need to thin it (xylenes) for a smooth application. Red Glyptal is really a hideous color in my opinion. Once fully dry, though, it is tough, flexible, and quite resistant to both water and other common solvents. It was designed as a coating for motor windings and such so it's quite resistant to water, oils, hydraulic fluid etc. Important to let it dry thoroughly before use.

Milou
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Re: ringing cements

#21 Post by Milou » Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:33 am

Thank you for your last comments and especially microcosmos for very nice pictures and Idflan for details about various cements.

Very surprise by the use of a " ebony-coloured polyurethane wood varnish" on slides described by microcosmos, and never seen in information about mounting mediums!
But I never used slides of paper fibres neither....

But it's perhaps indeed a good solution and furthermore very nice :-)

microcosmos
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Re: ringing cements

#22 Post by microcosmos » Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:51 am

Hi Milou and Idflan,

No problem, I am glad the polyurethane was of some interest. Answering Idflan's query, it has been three and a half years since I made those slides and they still seem fine and unchanged (I examined one of them under the microscope recently). I keep the slides vertically in a slide box in a dry cabinet to protect them from the tropical humidity, and the temperature is around 28-29 deg C in Singapore.

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KurtM
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Re: ringing cements

#23 Post by KurtM » Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:57 am

Thanks for the kind words, Leonard!

I tried just about everything in my quest for the perfect ringing cement for use on diatom slides with Pleurax as the mountant, and ended up liking Testor's model enamel better than anything else, glyptal running a close second. As Leonard says, glyptal is a pretty dismal color, but it's tough as nails and lays down nicely.

I've been using both the above for 6 or 7 years now, and the rings have been bombproof so far, withstanding plenty of immersion oil applications and cleanups.

You can use both on the same slide and get a snazzy paint job too!
Attachments
testors 1024px.JPG
testors 1024px.JPG (154.8 KiB) Viewed 5990 times
glyptal 1024px.JPG
glyptal 1024px.JPG (125.33 KiB) Viewed 5990 times
1-1-20 slides 1024px.jpg
1-1-20 slides 1024px.jpg (127.55 KiB) Viewed 5990 times
Cheers,
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/

Milou
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Re: ringing cements

#24 Post by Milou » Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:12 am

Thank you Kurt to show your very elegant slides with esthetic bicolour variations :-)

It could bee indeed a very good, and nice, solution to use these products as cement!

But if Testor enamel paint is well available in Europe, the other red product seems not to be available!
Perhaps similar ones do exist?

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KurtM
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Re: ringing cements

#25 Post by KurtM » Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:43 pm

Milou, I live in the USA, and was advised to try 'glyptal' by an internet friend who lives in England. I couldn't find 'glyptal', but somehow discovered that the product I show in my picture is the formulation I wanted. So now it's up to you to discover what brand name glyptal goes by wherever you are. I wish I could be of better help, but that's the best I can do.

The black is easier - just look for gloss black enamel paint made for and marketed to the hobby shop trade, for builders of plastic scale models.
Cheers,
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/

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