Culturing a food chain

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shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#121 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:58 pm

Question I have now is, at this stage, should light be 24/7 or more akin to a natural day, i.e. maybe 12 on, 12 off?

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#122 Post by DaveH » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:14 pm

shawngibson wrote:Question I have now is, at this stage, should light be 24/7 or more akin to a natural day, i.e. maybe 12 on, 12 off?
I would go for 12 on and 12 off, and let the tank settle down.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#123 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:19 pm

Will do, thanks Dave. I also think I should leave the juveniles in the fry tank for a few moltings, and put them into the bigger part of the tank once it's clear they're healthy. Helps with the cleaning as well, i.e. no moltings in the tank with younglings which have not yet proven their heartiness.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#124 Post by DaveH » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:35 pm

shawngibson wrote:Will do, thanks Dave. I also think I should leave the juveniles in the fry tank for a few moltings, and put them into the bigger part of the tank once it's clear they're healthy. Helps with the cleaning as well, i.e. no moltings in the tank with younglings which have not yet proven their heartiness.
Yes I was going to suggest growing them on first but hadn't got round to it yet.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#125 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:38 pm

Good stuff, and I must say, I owe you (and Charlie) a huge thanks. I'm very obsessive with this project, and truly want it to succeed.

Once I have this sustaining itself (not sure how I am going to deal with the carbon?) I will start another 5G tank with daphnia.

I'd also really like a green hydra tank; they are very fascinating, but I've heard they are hard to culture.

Shawn

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#126 Post by DaveH » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:45 pm

shawngibson wrote:Good stuff, and I must say, I owe you (and Charlie) a huge thanks. I'm very obsessive with this project, and truly want it to succeed.

Once I have this sustaining itself (not sure how I am going to deal with the carbon?) I will start another 5G tank with daphnia.

I'd also really like a green hydra tank; they are very fascinating, but I've heard they are hard to culture.

Shawn
Hi Shawn

I've only provided information gathered over the years, when I acquired my first tank much like you it was drummed into by the shops that the numbers had to be spot on, then a local shop closed and my father purchased all the tanks and equipment from the shop and we set up the garage as a fish house, breeding and selling fish to the shops in the area. When I started working at one of the biggest fish farms in the UK that's when I was put straight in what's important and what's not.

Not to complicate matters I think the problem with the old setup was over feeding, I think frozen food has a lot of rubbish in it, in the form of frozen water. The other thing in the back of my mind is that the shrimp have to find the food, so I think trying to grow them on in the hatchery is probably a good move, even if you loose 20 or 30 shrimp from starvation in the main tank that won't be enough to turn the tank.

Now hydra that's well above my head although I do remember seeing one back n 1963 I think.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#127 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:37 pm

That's awesome, you have family history and a long time in the field.

I grew too quickly, too hot, too many (by many magnitudes!), based on feeding fish. Failure from the start. I had thousands of brine shrimp in a 5G tank in a matter of 24-36 hours.

With the new hatchery breeding a small pinch of brine shrimp at 74 deg., not interacting with the rest of the tank, save water, as you say, I can have some failures, and remove the hatchery and start over, without affecting the tank. I assume pee and poop will still make it into the tank, but not molted remains. Hopefully the mech/bio filter and carbon sheet will take care of that.

I'm still more concerned with algae, making it propagate; hopefully having a hot and cold light, Kelvin-wise, will promote propagation.

To be clear, I should not be feeding the post-yolk-sack nauplii the frozen bacteria, just the spirulina flakes I have (I remember your numbers, grind a bit and just a pin-head amount)? I.e., throw out the frozen stuff? Once in the tank, I assume they will feed on live algae...
DaveH wrote:
Hi Shawn

I've only provided information gathered over the years, when I acquired my first tank much like you it was drummed into by the shops that the numbers had to be spot on, then a local shop closed and my father purchased all the tanks and equipment from the shop and we set up the garage as a fish house, breeding and selling fish to the shops in the area. When I started working at one of the biggest fish farms in the UK that's when I was put straight in what's important and what's not.

Not to complicate matters I think the problem with the old setup was over feeding, I think frozen food has a lot of rubbish in it, in the form of frozen water. The other thing in the back of my mind is that the shrimp have to find the food, so I think trying to grow them on in the hatchery is probably a good move, even if you loose 20 or 30 shrimp from starvation in the main tank that won't be enough to turn the tank.

Now hydra that's well above my head although I do remember seeing one back n 1963 I think.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#128 Post by DaveH » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:39 pm

Hi Shawn

Keep the frozen stuff for later on when the tank has matured but use only in very small amounts, the amount of wast a few shrimp will make won't cause a problam in your tank, each component in the system relies on the other components, the algae will need both light and wast, this process will happen naturally, as you have some algae from the shop you have a head start it might well start to disappear but hopefully it will establish itself before it disappears compleatly. Once in the tank I think you will have to feed them for a number of months, you will have to increase the food as the shrimp grow at adult size for maybe 30 shrimp feed twice a week food abought the size of a match head, keep a close eye on the water and if you can see a light haze/cloud in the water stop feeding until the water clears.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#129 Post by shawngibson » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:43 am

Thanks Dave, noted.

Got home tonight and the shrimp have hatched already - tank is at 76 right now, but I was shining a light on the corner for the algae; must have quickened the brine hatch. Distribution of live shrimp in the tank is very good, maybe one 1/1000th of the last batch. 1 per 2" babies. Still too many, I think, but I don't have anything small enough to remove them. Maybe 75-100 babies in the tank in total.

Saw that the shrimp had made their way into the tank, through the mesh. Also, since it was all hatched, I removed the fry tank, but as I lifted it out of the water, the dead cysts and empty eggs made their way through the filter. Bummer.

Biggest mistake this time was adding the shrimp to the same tank (thinking a fry area would help), and putting still too many in, i.e. my baby finger tip grabbed them, and I added that. It was maybe 2mm x 2mm WxL, and level (z), i.e. just a single layer on my fingertip.

Also, all of the large algae I put into the tank is gone, but when I looked at a bottom sample in my microscope, there is some small algae, mostly cyanobacteria and diatoms, I think.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#130 Post by DaveH » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:45 am

Hi Shawn

All sounds good, the hatch rate depends aeration, if you have eggs with a hatch rate of 95% then that's what you get if you provide aeration if you hatch in still water ice a jar the hatch rate will drop maybe down to 10%. 100 shrimp will be fine as long as it's not 100,000. So what have you got so far shrimp providing wast, algae (although you can't see it) feeding of the wast from the shrimp, a filter that will grow a colony of bacteria that will process the wast, that's the start of the process, you will have to feed the shrimp until the tank matures I would suggest for 100 shrimp an amount that will fit on a match head once a week. I can't stress enough not to over feed, the shrimp will find a level that suites the environment. Leave the muck that ended up on the bottom of the tank there it is forming part of the process, it must be so small that it won't cause a problem and is a important part of the process. Don't look at the numbers they will drive you mad look at the shrimp you will soon get to recognise if they are happy or not if they look right they are right, they won't like the water interfered with any change should be slow, slow, slow.
Ah the unspoken word fly killer, air freshener or any aerosol is a no no in the same room, have you got a cover for your tank.
I think you are on the way now it's a waiting game.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#131 Post by shawngibson » Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:18 pm

Hi Dave,

Excellent, thanks...feeling confident now:)

No air-borne chemicals in the apartment, and the tank is covered.

I'll feed the brine in a couple of days, by then they should be done with the yolk-sack. As per your advice, a match-head of dry/ground spirulina, and once a week thereafter.

I've developed such a fascination with algae that I'm going to head back to the ravine across the street and gather a very large sample to look at under the microscope:)

Shawn

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#132 Post by Crater Eddie » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:48 pm

Be careful, algae is addictive.
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#133 Post by shawngibson » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:57 pm

So I'm learning :lol:

I kept a ravine sample alive by my window for over 2 weeks. All I did was replenish the water (distilled). Then I knocked it over and broke the jar :(

I find cyanobacteria fascinating. When I look out the window, nothing I see - animals/plants/fungi, man-made structures and the atmosphere itself - would exist with these guys. Humbling.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#134 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:26 pm

Tank is yet again devoid of brine shrimp. They're not in the tank, nor on the bottom. Just gone. No bad chemistry, no smell, just devoid of brine shrimp.

Chemistry is perfect (Ammonia is 0, Nitrates and Nitrites are all in the best zone, pH and Alk. as well - finally all the numbers are good!). SG is 1.021. Temp is 74F.

2-3 very small struggling shrimp up top by the light. Not much larger than newborn.

Maybe aliens are transporting my shrimp to Uranus?

Either the carbon carpet or the mech/bio filter or my rate of airflow is causing them all to get sucked up.

This is driving me bananas!

I'm going to go to Big Al's tomorrow and buy some adult shrimp, a small amount, and put them into the tank, just to make sure I'm not completely losing my mind. Adult brine shrimp are larger than filtration, I would think. I'll also slow down the airflow.

The shrimp I put into a plastic water bottle with water from the tank, added an air stone and some tungsten light, they are doing fine, but only a couple of days old. What's up with my aquarium?

If this fails, I'll clean everything and start over with freshwater and a long, long go at culturing algae before adding any consumers.

I can't possibly be this inept.

Shawn

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#135 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:48 pm

Hi Shawn

No you're not inept, far from it one of three things have happened either the shrimp have ended up in the filter although that's a long shot, or the shrimp starved as they couldn't find the small amount of food that's quit possible or the filter filtered out the food. The one good thing is the tank is still good, you can try some adult shrimp but they lead a hard life and my be on there last legs when you get them, if they dispense the shrimp from a large display cone shaped tank then look for the dead ones if there are to many then wait for a new shipment, if they are bright red then they are short of oxygen and it's a chance that they will like the move. I would start a few more eggs and try again. I can understand it's driving you mad, but you have made a start the tank is still good and is maturing more every day. How many have you got in the jar.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#136 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:20 pm

Thanks Dave. Big Al's said they are old and about to be replaced, so maybe I'll wait for the plastic bottle to mature for a few days.

Jar has maybe 200 shrimp; it's 4.7L

I just removed the carbon carpet and bio/mech filter, and cut the carbon carpet to fit the bio/mech filter, and airflow is one large blob that moves the whole tank, but doesn't create any crazy airflow, i.e., this:
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#137 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:35 pm

Here's a video of the tank right now (all of the small things are dead, from the bottom and the filter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ponYnwUu8NM

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#138 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:38 pm

Hi Shawn

There's a good chance it's not enough food, but it's a fine balance to start with if you want to keep the water, if you buy shrimp they will need more food than hatchlings, the only thing you can do is keep an eye on the water if it goes cloudy then don't feed until it clears. Why no grow the shrimp on in the plastic bottle until they glide around rather looking like there being chased round buy a cattle prod then transfer them into the tank.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#139 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:41 pm

OK, so in the bottle, turn the air and light down and add a bit of food?

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#140 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:44 pm

shawngibson wrote:Here's a video of the tank right now (all of the small things are dead, from the bottom and the filter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ponYnwUu8NM
Hi the filter might be better upright, it's hard to see are all the little bits dead shrimp, my jar looks like somebody dumped there rubbish in the bottom of it but the waters clear. The bottle look fine if you want to grow them on quicker the keep the water just cloudy only just cloudy.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#141 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:45 pm

shawngibson wrote:OK, so in the bottle, turn the air and light down and add a bit of food?
In the bottle keep the air and light on and add food.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#142 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:52 pm

Just had another look at the video the air is fine, you could give it a bit more if you have it, 200 shrimp feed them a small pinch of food and feed again when the water clears may be 2 or 3 days, when you transfer them into the tank don't put the water out the bottle in the tank it will be knackered.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#143 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:54 pm

Better? Less flow, less light, added food. They can move on their own now without fighting the current:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkc2tjQTMt0

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#144 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:57 pm

OK, posted this without seeing your last 2 responses. I fed them. Will up the light and airflow a bit.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#145 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:05 pm

shawngibson wrote:OK, posted this without seeing your last 2 responses. I fed them. Will up the light and airflow a bit.
Yes if you want to grow them on quick keep the water well on the move with air and keep the water just with a hint of cloud so there's plenty of food in the water, sounds a bit of a contradiction I know but it's short term grow them and use them, you can do that maybe two or three times then the water has had it you have to dump it. Move them into the tank a few at a time the shock might kill them if it does the just a a bit of the tank water to the bottle every hour until the bottles full then they should move ok.

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#146 Post by shawngibson » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:08 pm

Fixed:)


DaveH wrote:
shawngibson wrote:Here's a video of the tank right now (all of the small things are dead, from the bottom and the filter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ponYnwUu8NM
Hi the filter might be better upright, it's hard to see are all the little bits dead shrimp, my jar looks like somebody dumped there rubbish in the bottom of it but the waters clear. The bottle look fine if you want to grow them on quicker the keep the water just cloudy only just cloudy.

Dave
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#147 Post by DaveH » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:12 pm

That looks better

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#148 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:33 pm

Well, I took the plunge today (another $100 lol) and decided to get rid of any filtration that might swallow the shrimp. I currently have some very energetic nauplii in a water bottle with light, aeration, and I fed them a bit of crushed spirulina flakes and frozen algae.

Remembering what you said earlier (at least in part) and the advice from the manager at Big Al's today, I removed all filtration, bought live sand, and about 5 pounds of live rock; the live rock has 2 full-blast air stones under them to create airflow, but there's now nothing in the system to 'eat' the shrimp.

Here are a couple of videos showing the new setup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s03FXGY7Ays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsRwDU4YHfY

The sand is still settling, and since my water was good, had some algae in it, I siphoned it and re-used it to water the tank.

I'm still a bit confused about the live sand, does it need aeration too?

Shawn

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#149 Post by DaveH » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:47 pm

Hi Shawn

The tank looks good, $100 is probably not a bad price hopefully it will last a long time you will need some form of life in the tank in the next week or two in order to complete the cycle.
Good news the shrimp in the bottle are doing well can you see they are growing. The live sand is usually used in conjunction with an under gravel filter, if you look at the tanks in the shop you will most likely see a pipe in each back corner of the tank with air coming out of it, they are conected to a perforated plate under the sand, the air draws the water through the sand using it as a filter, with a thin layer of sand on the bottom of the tank only the sand that is in contact with the water that is circulating round the tank will be of benefit with regards to bacterial filtration. I hope that makes sense.

Dave

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#150 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:57 pm

Thanks Dave:)

I think this project is starting to head in its own direction lol.

What kind of life-form would you recommend I introduce? Maybe some sort of fish, i.e. just one? I'm actually thinking of adding some sort of soft coral, simply because having spent so much time at the store, I'm starting to think they are very beautiful.

The shrimp in the bottle are still very energetic, however they aren't getting any bigger yet. The water is still green from the frozen algae, not sure what that means. Maybe they don't like it?

I think this is the type of filter you are talking about:

https://www.bigalspets.ca/under-gravel- ... 0-gal.html

At this point in time, I'm starting to think that the shrimp should be viewed as an externally-raised food source.

Bear in mind, through all of this, that one of the main reasons I'm doing all of this is to grow microscopic organisms that I can view under my microscope and take images of (algae, rotifers, copepods, etc.), so I'm starting to think that the shrimp are not the most important part of the process.

I'd still like this to be self-sustaining, but that is becoming secondary to getting an actual, living, environment to thrive.

Unless you say differently, I'll buy a small fish tonight (something that eats brine shrimp nauplii) on my way home and add it to the tank.

Shawn
DaveH wrote:Hi Shawn

The tank looks good, $100 is probably not a bad price hopefully it will last a long time you will need some form of life in the tank in the next week or two in order to complete the cycle.
Good news the shrimp in the bottle are doing well can you see they are growing. The live sand is usually used in conjunction with an under gravel filter, if you look at the tanks in the shop you will most likely see a pipe in each back corner of the tank with air coming out of it, they are conected to a perforated plate under the sand, the air draws the water through the sand using it as a filter, with a thin layer of sand on the bottom of the tank only the sand that is in contact with the water that is circulating round the tank will be of benefit with regards to bacterial filtration. I hope that makes sense.

Dave

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