Culturing a food chain

[shawngibson]

Thanks Dave, yes please describe it.

Shawn

[DaveH]

If the only large organism in the tank is artemia, can I introduce live spirulina into the tank? All phytoplankton I've been feeding is dead/genetically engineered to not reproduce.

Yes but the spirulina has to have something to eat itself, I must admit the price of the Rotifers surprised me, if the cost of the spirulina is affordable then you could feed the brine shrimp on it the same as the dead spirulina, and it will establish itself as part of the system, if the price is a shocker then I would wait 2 or 3 months, I'm hopping that at some point you will tell us you have found the Rotifers.

Dave

[shawngibson]

No, there are no rotifers or copepods. Even when I grabbed an eyedropper's worth in the original jar and looked in my microscope, I saw no copepods. Unless you need more than 10x (I have oblique and polarized and dark light), there were no copepods in the jar. I never looked at the rotifers, just added them when my tank chemistry was good.

I'm going to concentrate on raising brine shrimp to adulthood and hopefully see some pregnant females; then I'll introduce new small species like copepods and rotifers.

It bothers me that this has happened, because the supplier of my rotifers, copepods and phytoplankton has a good reputation and has been very helpful. I'm still thinking this is my fault.

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Yes but the spirulina has to have something to eat itself
Dave

They are light-eating autotrophs, no?

[DaveH]

If you take a drinks bottle, chose one that doesn't have the extra bit stuck to the bottom, cut the top off to a height just below the water surface when it is standing on the bottom of the tank up to an inch is fine, put a suitable weight in the bottom and make three or four holes in the side of the bottle just above the weight, put an inch of filter media on top of the weight any media will do, put your air stone on top of the media, the air will lift the water and it will effectively come out of the top drawing water in the bottom, the thinner the bottle the faster the flow, the more air you use the faster the flow.

As always make sure all items are suitable for marine use and wash well before use, I have used clear drinks bottles for marine use many times.

Dave

[DaveH]

No, there are no rotifers or copepods. Even when I grabbed an eyedropper's worth in the original jar and looked in my microscope, I saw no copepods. Unless you need more than 10x (I have oblique and polarized and dark light), there were no copepods in the jar. I never looked at the rotifers, just added them when my tank chemistry was good.

I'm going to concentrate on raising brine shrimp to adulthood and hopefully see some pregnant females; then I'll introduce new small species like copepods and rotifers.

It bothers me that this has happened, because the supplier of my rotifers, copepods and phytoplankton has a good reputation and has been very helpful. I'm still thinking this is my fault.

Shawn

Hi it's hard to say but I would have thought you should have seen something out of the original jar, I don't the size of the Copepods maybe someone else can help with this, I assume by 10x you are talking 100x if so then I would think you must see something. I think your plan is sound and you might be surprised what you find in a month or two.

Dave

[DaveH]

Yes but the spirulina has to have something to eat itself
Dave

They are light-eating autotrophs, no?

In short the awnser is I don't know but I assume that they have to absorb something from the water as dense populations of this type of life form often occur where pollution exists.

Dave

[shawngibson]

In short the awnser is I don't know but I assume that they have to absorb something from the water as dense populations of this type of life form often occur where pollution exists.

Dave

I'm not sure either. I know there are chemical and light eating autotrophs, but I'm not sure if spirulina is either. More Googling is necessary.

Shawn

[shawngibson]

On a positive note, I got an email today from photo.net (used to be the biggest photography site in the world) and they have chosen one of my images as "Photo of the Day" for tomorrow - a drosophila image I took through my microscope:)

I've been part of photo.net for almost 20 years, and this is this the first time I've ever been 'rewarded' for my efforts. Happy:)

Shawn

[DaveH]

On a positive note, I got an email today from photo.net (used to be the biggest photography site in the world) and they have chosen one of my images as "Photo of the Day" for tomorrow - a drosophila image I took through my microscope:)

I've been part of photo.net for almost 20 years, and this is this the first time I've ever been 'rewarded' for my efforts. Happy:)

Shawn

Nice one sometimes things go the right way.

I can't believe you have killed your 40x maybe upset it a bit, give it a good clean and see what happens.

Dave

[billbillt]

Thanks DaveH for the hint for a search on filters..."Bubble box filter" was to generic a term for this.. Your terminology worked well...

BillT

[billbillt]

One other thing that may need explanation, bubble filter boxes provide only what is described: bubbles, not a steady stream of water as depicted in the photo... How are you achieving this?.. Do you have an auxiliary water pump discharging above the surface of the water?...

The Best!,
BillT

[shawngibson]

If you take a drinks bottle, chose one that doesn't have the extra bit stuck to the bottom, cut the top off to a height just below the water surface when it is standing on the bottom of the tank up to an inch is fine, put a suitable weight in the bottom and make three or four holes in the side of the bottle just above the weight, put an inch of filter media on top of the weight any media will do, put your air stone on top of the media, the air will lift the water and it will effectively come out of the top drawing water in the bottom, the thinner the bottle the faster the flow, the more air you use the faster the flow.

As always make sure all items are suitable for marine use and wash well before use, I have used clear drinks bottles for marine use many times.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Just want to make sure I'm close to understanding here:

1) Get something like a plastic Coke container or water container and cut the top off so that it's about an inch taller than the water surface.
2) Put some dead rock in it, enough to weigh it down.
3) Put 3 or 4 holes in it above the dead rock. QUESTION: How big should the holes be?
4) I don't quite understand. Put an inch of filter media above the rock? Above or level with the holes? Is filter media the black mesh that came with my (too strong) filter? Should the filter media be the same size/shape as the container, i.e. a circle that reaches the edges of the container? What part is 1 inch?
5) Put my air stone above the filter.

Clearly I'm only half understanding this lol.

On another note, I grabbed some air pump tubing and taped a skewer stick to it, and now I have a siphon to get rid of the detritus/exoskeletons at the bottom of the tank:) Still haven't developed a technique for targeting the shells that cling to the corners to the surface. As soon as I get close, it all scatters.

Shawn

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

I think you have the idea ok, hole doesn't mater to much anything from 1/2" to 1" or some slits as long as the water can flow through them, put the filter media on top of the rocks as long as the top of the media is a inch or so above the holes. There are loads of filter media available from filter wool to exotic man made media any will do you could use the media out of your filter, it will still preserve any life in it.
You could have the top of the bottle just above the water level but it might work better just below as then the air won't have to lift the water above the water level.

Box filters and the home made version all work on air only, designs vary as does efficiency. The principal is simple air traveling up a tube of water will lift the water above that is replaced by water coming through the inlet holes, this can look complicated or simple as in the bottle filter, don't get the impression that the picture you posted is only providing air those small air bubbles are all lifting water providing water flow. These filters are low volume filters just what you need for your project. They can be used in any tank where you are not trying to grossly over stock it so it looks good.

Is the detritus the bit with all the other life forms in.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Is the detritus the bit with all the other life forms in.

Dave

Based on what I've seen in the microscope, it's largely unhatched cysts and empty eggs and moulted shells that I'm syphoning. The only life in those syphoned examples (blobs moving in patterns that are clearly lifelike, i.e. against the current) are incredible small (maybe 1/100th the size of a brine shrimp eye in early stages of development), most likely bacteria I suppose.

And since I don't have any concave slides, I've been leaving the inhabitants of the tank alone...will buy some concave slides when I get paid on Friday.

No copepods or rotifers. Grrr. From what I've seen here and at that photo micrography site, copepods and rotifers should be CLEARLY visible with a 10x objective. I could, of course, be wrong.

Trying to upload a few pics of my tank, but Photoshop is busy aligning photos; will take hours based on the loader image....

Shawn

[shawngibson]

On a positive note, for the first time, I'm seeing shrimp which are more complex than the ones I've seen in the past; a small number have clearly made it beyond babyhood. About 3x the size of the small ones, but still no bigger than 1mm approx.

This is in the tank, not the scope, i.e., by eye, so it's encouraging:)

If I didn't make it clear in my last post, the only things I'm looking at are the detritus, not chasing live shrimp for my scope yet; I want them to grow. So I have no idea what these bigger guys are, what state they're in. Hopefully they are growing big and strong:)

I've been looking at aquaponics videos on youtube all day. I'm determined to keep these guys alive, and make it self-sustaining ultimately. But as noted elsewhere, I need to be more like an ox in a slow-moving world. The quickest way to kill these guys is to let my ADHD get in the way. Patience, Grasshopper...

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Tank

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

The bigger guys should be shrimp, they should grow to 10mm plus, that looks like a load of eggs floating on the top you should be able to remove them either with a little home made net made from something like a cotton hanky or you could probably lift them off with a piece of paper kitchen towel, just gently lay it on the water service and lift it off and the eggs should be stuck to it.
I remember grasshopper well, Sunday afternoon over hear let the shrimp grow and watch them breeding and give the tank time to settle down.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Thanks Dave. I have a net for brine shrimp, I'll scoop the top bits off right now.

It's very hard to control the movement of such small objects in one plane (they all go Y on the grid when I intervene). I suppose I'll lose some shrimp as I remove the top bits.

Here goes...captain, employ the net drive.

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Did what you said. Much, much cleaner now! And still lots of shrimp. Thanks Dave:)

[DaveH]

Hi

If that haze in the water is all shrimp then expect to loose a few, are you heating the tank what sort of temp is the water.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Haze is shrimp. Heating the water. Temp is 82 degrees, hasn't changed for well over a week, the temp.

[shawngibson]

I'm ashamed to admit, when the tank initially died, I took all my cysts that were left over, and added them to the tank (maybe 1 tsp. of cysts), as opposed to the jar I was successfully using. My thought was, grow them from birth in the environment they will grow up in. But as you've noticed I bore too many and ended up with a lot of garbage to clean up.

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

It's hard to tell from the picture, but if you are over populated the shrimp will be competing to survive and not growing as well as expected, you may need to thin them out.

Dave

[shawngibson]

That's exactly what's happening. They are definitely surviving, but they are not growing. Most have gone on to the next stage, i.e. running around chasing eggs and nauplii, being aggressive, but not growing much. The next-stage guys are not visibly larger than the first stage guys, maybe 1/2mm as opposed to 1/3mm by eye (I'm leaving the tank alone for now, not under the scope, so these numbers are by eye).

How much do you suggest I cull?

Shawn

[shawngibson]

Removed maybe 2 tsp of shrimp in the net, about 5 passes top to bottom, emptied net after each pass. I feel like a tyrant

[shawngibson]

Numbers per tonight:

Ammonia: perfect/0
Nitrates: 20/OK
Nitrites: Caution
Alkalinity: Ideal
pH: Ideal
sg: 1.022-1.027
temp: 82F

edit: light is on only from 5am-5pm (23W daylight approx. 5K). Otherwise dark and I turn the air stone down at night, hoping for propagation:)

[charlie g]

Hi Shawn...thanks for including images in this terrific project. My concern and my question: where do these brine shrimp in natural range live? I thought these organisms were harvested from con-US Pacific shore to start commercial breeding of the organisms. Where in the Pacific shore is the water temp: 82 F for weeks? I thought you desired a 'balanced community of a variety of organisms'...and not a 'factory farm for brine shrimp'?

82 F sounds very unnatural for native brine shrimps interacting with other trophic levels of plants and 'animals'...I suggest you 'google' seasonal ocean temps of Pacific shore of Calif....and perhaps ask your aquarist contact person...and I hope Dave H too offers thoughts on temperature for a balanced system vrs 'factory farming of brine shrimp' ( which has it's utility to fish breeders...the fry flourish with specific inputs ( like factory farmed brine shrimp)....and fry flourish with specifics which master breeders may...or may not be willing to share (heh, heh...I keep thinking of those Japaneese Koi comanding multiples of: $1G).

Think of the temp at which totally sealed buildings,factory farmed chickens are raised in...then think of the temperature wild guinea fowl or whatever wild relative of chickens are engadged in with their variety of trophic levels.

I sense 82 F is too high to establish brine shrimp + other meiofauna ( the rotifers, the copepods, the algae, the larger plants, the snails, the marine flat worms...etc. . just my concern if your goal is brine shrimp in a balanced 'food chain' as this project was birthed. love your thread, Shawn...thanks for shareing. charlie guevara

[charlie g]

Ooops...I want to congradulate you, Shawn...on your submitted image of Drosophila being given formal recognition...yes, yes!! all the best, charlie guevara/finger lakes, US

[shawngibson]

>>I thought you desired a 'balanced community of a variety of organisms'...and not a 'factory farm for brine shrimp'?

I do, exactly. The only numbers I've found have been re: get pauplii quickly for feeding fish. I'm not at all sure what the Salt Lake in Utah would be for temperature. I suppose it's time to figure that out. To wit: you are saying the temp is too high, yes?

>>ask your aquarist contact person...

Probably not a good idea LOL. No one around here raises artemia to adulthood, and the copepods and rotifers...well let's just say I respect him but when I got home, I saw nothing in the container he gave me. Based on this forum and googling, I should be able to see copepods at 10x objective. At 10x an artemia takes up most of the view.

>>Think of the temp at which totally sealed buildings,factory farmed chickens are raised in...then think of the temperature wild guinea fowl or whatever wild relative of chickens are engadged in with their variety of trophic levels.

The former is hot; the latter is more natural and includes cycles of light/dark, warm/cold.

>>just my concern if your goal is brine shrimp in a balanced 'food chain' as this project was birthed.

Still aiming for that. Maybe I should remove the little heater on the wall of the glass. current temp in my apt. is approx. 23C

>>love your thread, Shawn...thanks for shareing.

Thank you and Dave for inspiring me to succeed:)

Shawn