Culturing a food chain

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

Looks like the project has turned 180 degrees, nothing wrong with that. If you are heading for an aquarium the the rules change, you will have to reinstate an efficient filter system, my preference is for under gravel but I think you have a filter that will do the job. What you put in the tank is really down to what takes your fancy, have a chat with Big Al don't put anything in the tank that will grow to big or is difficult to keep, bear in mind that if you are looking at living Corel then don't get anything that will peck at the Corel and kill it, some of the shrimps are popular, but it really is what takes your fancy.
Don't forget that any fish will eat your brine shrimp so I think you would be lucky to breed them in the tank, you will end up growing them as food. The living rock should provide some shelter for the the smaller life. The green water with the shrimp is probably food, just keep the water green and plenty of air, when you hatch shrimp they don't seem to grow at first (a watched kettle never boils) then all of a sudden they take off give them a couple of weeks then you will see the diffrence.

If you find yourself ever at the coast don't forget to take a jar with you, or if you know someone who is either going or lives by the coast they could post you some algae scrapings in a small plastic bag.

Dave

[DaveH]

Oh Shawn just a thought fish shops are very addictive there should be a health warning over the door

[shawngibson]

Hi Dave, yes, this is clearly an addiction.

I added a bunch of aeration to the live rock and live sand tonight.

What I'm thinking now is:

1) Algae tank to feed rotifers/copepods
2) Rotifer/Copepod tank to feed 1 coral/1 fish/ 1 invert
3) A Coral, and a Goby/Pistol Shrimp (symbiotic relationship)

This current tank, sans carnivores, is perfect, the numbers are perfect. But I'm not sure if it's going to be an algae tank or a copepod/rotifer tank.

Yesterday night I moved about 40-50 brine shrimp to the aquarium, and they are thriving, but again, not gaining any size.

Right now the tank is grey because I added more aeration to the live sand (moved a lot, my big hands causing a ruckus). Hopefully in the morning it will be a bit more clear.


Shawn

[DaveH]

Sorry to see your little starfish met an untimely end, probably got crushed with the move around these things happen, the shrimp will grow give them time, I would get this tank established then you can decide what to do with it.

Dave

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

Been a bit quite, have the shrimp grown these are about a week old.



Took the plunge and picked up a 5.5ltr tank the other day.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Very cool. You've got some older guys in there, awesome.

I've not gotten a shrimp past the nauplii stage, but I have been using a batch from a student science site and it was not stored properly for some time.

I just bought some new cysts from a reputable company, and have started the cycle with about 30-40 shrimp. They're alive, have molted I think twice based on size increases.

Went out yesterday and today, because of "Black Friday". Got a 20G long tank, lighting, heating and a propeller for $150.

Also got 30Lbs of live sand and 30Lbs of live rock for $115 - a HUGE discount. The rock is usually $150 and the sand is usually $90. Great deal:)

So if the shrimp prove to be healthy, I'll move them into the 5G tank to live/propagate, and feed them eventually to coral and a symbiotic pistol shrimp/goby in the 20G tank - I'll give that a couple of months though, before I add corals and fish/shrimp.

One thing I'm still confused about, though it's probably been answered, is - now that I have live sand and live rock, does the live sand/rock decompose the molted brine shrimp exoskeletons?

ps yes, very sad the brittle star died. It bothers me actually, to see such a beautiful creature in so much stress for almost an hour, only to not survive.

Shawn

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

The exoskeletons will just lay in the bottom of the tank, they may desolve back into the water if the conditions allow it but they don't seem to cause any problems. Glad you got a bargain sounds like a good deal, look forward to seeing the results, my shrimp are in a small container at a temp of 75F grow the shrimp in your bottle until you can see them quite well, it might be either lack of food or to much food or to cold that is causing you a problam, if the bottle doesn't smell then try more food. Maybe the food is not so good try and get some spiritua in the form of a green powder they love it.
Here's a look at my tank


Dave

[shawngibson]

Thanks Dave. Wow your heater is the same size as the one in my 20G tank.

I just remembered that my phone is "apparently" totally waterproof (Sony Z4, I've seen many YT vids showing it underwater) so I'm going to try to do some underwater video. I hope I don't fry my phone lol!

...OK since I didn't hit "submit" it seems to have worked. Kinda cool, if the footage is rather useless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl-bbkdmM8E

[charlie g]

Yikes your phone gets a workout Shawn! Both Dave H and you have me curious...what sort of lighting are you each useing for your tanks? At the very end of your phone-video, Shawn, I see the reflection of your tanks lights off the water as you emerge from the water with your phone.

In my days of freshwater tropical fish addiction...the aquarium folk always noted you need special intense lighting for marine tanks. Even when I had pet snapping turtles...they needed UV lightsource for their health.


Careful not to grow gills, Shawn...joke...joke! charlie guevara

[shawngibson]

Hey Charlie,

The 20G tank has led lights ($99 for the LEDs and lid), but I suspect they are not conducive to corals or marine fish. I'll need to upgrade, for sure.

Here's a video of me turning on the propeller to get aeration with the live rock and sand. It reminds me of the Wizard of Oz. Who knows, I've got aeration, but I'm creating an underwater hurricane...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9mG3Q0QyfI

Yikes your phone gets a workout Shawn! Both Dave H and you have me curious...what sort of lighting are you each useing for your tanks? At the very end of your phone-video, Shawn, I see the reflection of your tanks lights off the water as you emerge from the water with your phone.

In my days of freshwater tropical fish addiction...the aquarium folk always noted you need special intense lighting for marine tanks. Even when I had pet snapping turtles...they needed UV lightsource for their health.


Careful not to grow gills, Shawn...joke...joke! charlie guevara

[charlie g]

Think your tank is a nice size to work with...but I'd harness the power of that water pump propeller inside a filter box...let that prop suck up water from an underground /under sand filter grate. Pump is conected to a tube, tube goes under the sand to a filter grate.

The outwash from the filter box then instills a sensible current into your tank.Aeration does not need that harsh current your prop is vortexing your tank with. Didn't that submerged motor+prop come with a filter box? charlie guevara

[shawngibson]

Do you mean this, Charlie?

https://www.bigalspets.ca/under-gravel- ... 9-gal.html

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn and Charlie

Shawn the tank looks great you will have to have chat with Big Al regarding feeding your living rock as I see you have quite a number of living bits on it, usually living rock has a colony of bacteria established in it and anything else included is a bonus. Did the shop recommend an under gravel filter for that set up. My budget on this project is as near £0.00 as posable so the heater is one I had laying around.

Charlie when I set my little jar up I wondered round the house with a thermometer for a week looking for a warm spot, in the end I put an interior car light bulb in a test tube and put it in the jar, it's controlled buy an electronic thermostat kit I made, the light is on for appx 50% of the time and it keeps the jar warm within 0.4F that was more luck than judgement. My 1 gallon tank has led lighting that came with it after all it is a children's tank, back in the day when we had a fish house with over 100 tanks Grow-Lux was the be all and end all for aquarium lighting, over the years most manufacturers have made a bulb that they clam is better than the rest but we ended up using household bulbs in the end, the problem is getting the light intensity into the tank. The way to go is find the best light wavelength for your requirements and then find a light source to match. It's not a hard as it appears I have grown chilli's in a completely enclosed environment with led lighting, the thing I found out was that not all blue led lights are equal. I look d at led lights for a portable moth trap and that was doable as well. Lighting is something I need to look at.

Dave

[DaveH]

Writing the last post Charlie hit the nail on the head, I can't keep up

[shawngibson]

Hi Dave:)

No they didn't recommend an undergravel filter; to be honest, the guys at Big Al's don't really understand what I'm doing. They do their best to help, but can only help to a point.

For example, the live sand, they don't use it in their aquaria and don't really seem to understand it. I've checked all of their tanks; there's no live sand anywhere.

They use gravel. So, I can't get any help re: undergravel filtration. They sell the products, but can't offer advice. I don't hold that against them, though, since I'm not by any stretch their 'regular customer'.

The live sand they sell me includes a packet of good bacteria. Ocean Direct Carib something-or-other.

So seeing as I now have every conceivable type of filtration available to me (lol) how do I incorporate undergravel filtration?

I should buy the undergravel link above and connect it to my propeller somehow?

[shawngibson]

Charlie, can you draw me a diagram, would you mind, please and thank you?

Think your tank is a nice size to work with...but I'd harness the power of that water pump propeller inside a filter box...let that prop suck up water from an underground /under sand filter grate. Pump is conected to a tube, tube goes under the sand to a filter grate.

The outwash from the filter box then instills a sensible current into your tank.Aeration does not need that harsh current your prop is vortexing your tank with. Didn't that submerged motor+prop come with a filter box? charlie guevara

[DaveH]

Hi. Shawn

I'm not the best a writing posts but here goes,

Filtration for efficient bacterial filtration you need a large surface area, coral sand provides this large surface area and is suitable for marine aquarium (it should not be used in freshwater aquarium) , the bacteria lives on the surface of the sand, in order for the bacteria to flourish you have to provide water flow around every grain of sand, this provides the bacteria both wast products to feed on and oxygen, if you don't provide these two requirements then the bacteria dies and a different type of bacteria grow that are not good for the aquarium, there are a few ways you can achieve the correct environment for the bacteria but by far the easiest way is by using an under gravel filter, like the type you linked to, it should cover the entire bottom of the aquarium, this way you won't have any dead spots, you may need to put a layer of nylon net curtain over the filter plate to stop the sand going through the slots in the filter plate and blocking the filter. With the sand over the filter plate water is drawn up the pipes in the filter plate, this in turn forces the water through the sand, hence filtration. You can draw the water up the tube either by air or by using a power head ie a pump.

Hope this helps more to follow.

Dave

[shawngibson]

That was a perfect set of instructions. Let me build it in Photoshop to make sure I understand you...back in a few minutes...

[DaveH]

I have an under gravel filter set up in my tank, I used gravel purely because I had it but coral sand would have been a better choice, depending on what you want to use the tank for will depend on the the flow rate through the filter, if you have filter feeders then there is a danger that you will filter the food out of the water if the flow rate is to high, you can check this by looking at a drop of water from mid water under your microscope, also an air stone in the the tank will help to keep the food in suspension.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Is this correct?

[DaveH]

Yes that's right, buy a filter that firs your aquarium, you may have to cut it down a bit it can be a little bit short if you can get just a bit small but don't have any large areas that haven't got filtration, also buy the filter first and if you need fine curtain to stop the sand going through don't get anything to fine or it will cause problems later, we found that plain net curtain worked well, only use one layer. If you only have a pump on one tube then make sure the other one is above the water level.

Just to give you an idea the shrimp in my video have thinned out a lot either not enough surface area or not enough food, but I have got about 10 or 12 fully formed shrimp.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Thanks Dave. I'll put the undergravel filter on hold to pick it up tomorrow.

I'm not at all sure what is going on with the Artemia. I've been feeding them a spirulina fish food, which I crush; I've also been feeding them micro algae. I've also started with a fresh batch of cold (not frozen) shrimp from a reputable dealer. I can only surmise that they are not eating what I feed them, since they thrive in the early stages and then die.

[DaveH]

Thanks Dave. I'll put the undergravel filter on hold to pick it up tomorrow.

I'm not at all sure what is going on with the Artemia. I've been feeding them a spirulina fish food, which I crush; I've also been feeding them micro algae. I've also started with a fresh batch of cold (not frozen) shrimp from a reputable dealer. I can only surmise that they are not eating what I feed them, since they thrive in the early stages and then die.

It's got to be either food or temp, send of for some spirulina it looks like green powder the sell for health food, in the meantime hard boil an egg make sure it's hard boiled. Take the yoke and liquidises in water, now make a solution that is still like water but has a lot of egg yoke in it, feed your shrimp on this add it to your brine shrimp bottle until the water just has a haze to it then don't feed until the water clears. That's what we used to do before spirulina arrived on the sean.

Did you have any luck with the eggs you put straight in the tank, I can't see them until they are about 3 or 4 days old.

Dave

[shawngibson]

>>Did you have any luck with the eggs you put straight in the tank, I can't see them until they are about 3 or 4 days old.

I had the same luck I always have: they thrive for a few days but then die. I think food is the issue. I will get some spirulina with no additives. I'm not sure how this can be correct, since spirulina are freshwater, and brine shrimp are very much marine. I wish I knew what they fed on in the salt lakes.

Shawn

[DaveH]

In the wild they will be feeding on Phytoplankton, but that's phase 2
They don't only live in the salt lakes they live in numerous locations throughout the world but the salt lakes and San Francisco Bay are the two places they collect eggs from, if you use the boiled egg for food don't put it in your tanks only use it in the shrimp bottle. Egg yoke is a good food and has been sold by one major manufacturer as both fry food and brine shrimp food.
The eggs in the tank may have hatched and there may be a few shrimp hiding in the live rock if not it will be shortage of food but don't chance turning the tank foul for the sake of a few shrimp, all of a sudden it will all come together so don't panic. Does Big Al sell live Phytoplankton.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Thanks Dave. I'll be picking up the undergravel filter when it arrives tomorrow, and will see what is available for food for the shrimp while I'm there.

Just a quick question. Is "plain net curtain" something I could get at a well-supplied textile store? There are several of those downtown, and I've not had any luck at the aquarium stores with any sort of 'bulk fish net'.

Shawn

Yes that's right, buy a filter that firs your aquarium, you may have to cut it down a bit it can be a little bit short if you can get just a bit small but don't have any large areas that haven't got filtration, also buy the filter first and if you need fine curtain to stop the sand going through don't get anything to fine or it will cause problems later, we found that plain net curtain worked well, only use one layer. If you only have a pump on one tube then make sure the other one is above the water level.

Just to give you an idea the shrimp in my video have thinned out a lot either not enough surface area or not enough food, but I have got about 10 or 12 fully formed shrimp.

Dave

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

Yes you should get it no problam from a textile store, look for nylon as it won't rot you only need enough to cover the bottom of the tank. I think you should look for some food for the bit and bobs that came with your living rock. I think this is an oversight on my part but if you are growing your shrimp in a pop bottle then feed daily as you are only using the water short term and if it gets smelly then it's no big issue just start again.

Dave

[DaveH]

Trigger finger got out of control and I just ordered this,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phyto-Plus-Br ... teWTF5IIhw

Hopefully I can do something with it.

Dave

[shawngibson]

Hey Dave, did you get your order yet?

I did a DIY undergravel filter for the 20G tank, and added bio and mech filtration. Not sure if it's going to work, especially the bio attachment to the undergravel propeller. Here's what I've got so far, sorry it's 3 videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYUCm5CbI1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy1qsgANnK0

Most important video, re: filtration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12xiT_l8hzI

Shawn

[DaveH]

Hi Shawn

Filter looks impressive, have you covered the holes to stop the sand blocking the filter.
Yes I received my order, the Rotifers are type L Brachionus plicatillis, they looked like dust in the water but could be seen as living creatures with a 20X magnifying glass through the side of the pouch they came in, the Copepods I could see moving abought with the naked eye. The only thing I could do with them was put them in the tank, I can see Copepods but hopefully the Rotifers are ok as well.

I will post a couple of very bad pictures to give you an idea what they look like, my scope is crap I get a good view by eye but the usb camera won't take a decent picture it works to a degree on a single objective straight tube scope, I need a USB port on the back of my head.

How are you getting along with your shrimp have you got them growing yet, and most important have you found some food for your living rock.

Dave