Culturing a food chain

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shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#91 Post by shawngibson » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:33 am

charlie g wrote:Ooops...I want to congradulate you, Shawn...on your submitted image of Drosophila being given formal recognition...yes, yes!! all the best, charlie guevara/finger lakes, US
Thank you:) I think on 'photography' sites, people are not used to seeing hair on a small fruit fly, i.e. microscope pics as opposed to macroscopic camera pics.

charlie g
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#92 Post by charlie g » Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:17 am

Hi Shawn...my folks and I love Toronto ( I went to college in Buffalo...we enjoy Torontos 'China town'...?Dundee St. area???).

If your brine shrimp are from Utahs salt lakes...you are almost dealing with a rugid assemblage of organisms we term: 'extremeophiles'! All bets are off in my sense on establishing a stable 'food chain of organisms' from such an 'extremeophil ecologic assemblage'.
Utah salt flats are a unique and extreme environment...very unique and hardy 'extremophiles' can flourish in that harsh saline environment.

Organisms thrive in 'hot springs'....organisms thrive in salt mines...organisms thrive in acidic waste pools of commercial industry...life 'finds a way'...but brine shrimp...native to Utah salt flats...can not be expected to function as one 'trophic layer' ...in a community supporting all those rotifers, and other meiofauna +plants...you expect to have in your indoor system...in my opinion ( I am a hobbyist on these matters).

Since you understand your brine shrimp harken from: Utahs salt flats...please consider just what vegetation and meiofauna exist in that environment...I doubt copepods or rotifers thrive in those salt flats. It's a terrific google project to sense : what algae, what protists, what meiofauna naturally live with brine shrimp! all the best...and please keep at this project. charlie guevara/finger lakes,US

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#93 Post by DaveH » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:50 am

charlie g wrote:Hi Shawn...thanks for including images in this terrific project. My concern and my question: where do these brine shrimp in natural range live? I thought these organisms were harvested from con-US Pacific shore to start commercial breeding of the organisms. Where in the Pacific shore is the water temp: 82 F for weeks? I thought you desired a 'balanced community of a variety of organisms'...and not a 'factory farm for brine shrimp'?

82 F sounds very unnatural for native brine shrimps interacting with other trophic levels of plants and 'animals'...I suggest you 'google' seasonal ocean temps of Pacific shore of Calif....and perhaps ask your aquarist contact person...and I hope Dave H too offers thoughts on temperature for a balanced system vrs 'factory farming of brine shrimp' ( which has it's utility to fish breeders...the fry flourish with specific inputs ( like factory farmed brine shrimp)....and fry flourish with specifics which master breeders may...or may not be willing to share (heh, heh...I keep thinking of those Japaneese Koi comanding multiples of: $1G).

Think of the temp at which totally sealed buildings,factory farmed chickens are raised in...then think of the temperature wild guinea fowl or whatever wild relative of chickens are engadged in with their variety of trophic level

I sense 82 F is too high to establish brine shrimp + other meiofauna ( the rotifers, the copepods, the algae, the larger plants, the snails, the marine flat worms...etc. . just my concern if your goal is brine shrimp in a balanced 'food chain' as this project was birthed. love your thread, Shawn...thanks for shareing. charlie guevara
Hi Charlie g and Shawn

Good information as always Charlie g, 82 F is high and is the type of temp used to grow shrimp on for food, down 70 F is fine or may be a bit lower at a pinch. Yes the shrimp are probably from the salt lakes where little or no other life exists but brine shrimp will live in a large range of conditions they adapt, Shawn set the tank up for the other expected inhabitants with regard to SG, I don't know how the temp was arrived at. The salt level Shawn is using should support many forms of other life, if I reflect back to an earlier post I have kept a few brine shrimp alive in a small container 250-300ml standing on top of a fish tank next to a window for years with very little servicing, algae growing in abundance I used to keep the only the front clean and never changed the water, this container supported 3 or 4 adult shrimp with a few shrimp at other stages. I never look at the water under the microscope so I can't say what other life was living in it but I sure there was some other life in there. I think Shawns project has changed and become simpler at the moment to growing some shrimp as a stepping stone to allow the tank to mature and hopefully start growing algae.

With regards to brine shrimp and fish keeping the benefits are simple, small fish fry are fed newly hatched shrimp and the nourishment in in the shrimp yoke sack, some of the exotic reef fish will only eat live food and brine shrimp are cheep and easy to grow on, and some fish keepers just like to treet there fish.

Dave

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#94 Post by DaveH » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:00 am

shawngibson wrote:Numbers per tonight:

Ammonia: perfect/0
Nitrates: 20/OK
Nitrites: Caution
Alkalinity: Ideal
pH: Ideal
sg: 1.022-1.027
temp: 82F

edit: light is on only from 5am-5pm (23W daylight approx. 5K). Otherwise dark and I turn the air stone down at night, hoping for propagation:)
Hi Shawn

The high nitrites are caused by over population or over feeding with a simple system the only thing you can do is change some water, or you could try a small carbon filter but that detracts from the original idea, you could leave the light on 24h and try and get the algae growing as that will benefit the system.

Dave

Edit
Think of 20,000 using one port a loo
Last edited by DaveH on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#95 Post by shawngibson » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:06 am

Thanks Dave and Charlie. I'll respond more in depth in a bit. For now, I've removed the heater and will keep the light on 24/7. I think I still have far too many brine shrimp in the tank. When I get home from work I'll remove more. Hopefully that will both promote growth and reduce nitrites.

Shawn (needs his morning coffee...)

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#96 Post by DaveH » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:13 am

shawngibson wrote:Thanks Dave and Charlie. I'll respond more in depth in a bit. For now, I've removed the heater and will keep the light on 24/7. I think I still have far too many brine shrimp in the tank. When I get home from work I'll remove more. Hopefully that will both promote growth and reduce nitrites.

Shawn (needs his morning coffee...)
Hi Shawn

The nitrites won't go down without some help, have you got any salt left.

Dave

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#97 Post by shawngibson » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:16 am

Hi Dave,

Lots. And about 2 gallons of distilled water.

Shawn

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#98 Post by DaveH » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:50 pm

Hi Shawn

You should be able to turn the temp down on your heater, keep an eye on the nitrites and if they are still going up then change 20% of the water over a week or two.

A quick note on nitrites, surplus food, rotting vegetation and fish wast all produce nitrites that are harmful, the way tuis is controlled in an aquarium is by the use of a filter most often a biological filter,
vegetation will also convert nitrites. The amount of nitrites produced will depend on the mass producing them, in my experience a few shrimp in a tank the size of your tank shouldn't produce enough nitrites before algae starts to grow on the sides, so I think the reason your nitrites are increasing is the number of shrimp, if I relate to keeping shrimp in a jar then each adult shrimp requires 2 square inches of water surface area you will still have shrimp at various stages of growth as well. Not many shrimp for the size of the tank you may think, but you are looking for the tank to support itself. At the moment if you discount light,heat and the air supply you have, you only have one component of your system and are waiting for the second component to appear, then the system will start to expand.

Don't rush trying to find the other bits yet, I don't know what the coastline is like where you are but if you find yourself at the seaside then grab a jar or two of sand from the low water line, a thin layer in your tank will provide a habitat for other life forms, may some stones or a rock with green growth on them will provide additional vegetation, a few shells from the beach or over here every beach has a bucket and spade shop they sell small pieces of coral these will provide a buffer for your tank. Don't rush out looking for bits take the opportunity when it appears. Hope this is of some help.

Dave

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#99 Post by shawngibson » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:40 pm

Thanks Dave, sorry for the delay. I was looking at some stream samples I got a few days ago, was fascinated, taking pics til after midnight lol:)

My heater doesn't actually have a control unit. When I got home last night, after having removed the heater the night before, the water is actually the same as the ambient temperature in my apartment. The thermometer was green between 78 and 68, so I'm guessing around 73 degrees?

Regarding adding water, should I be preparing it beforehand, i.e. with salt, bacteria, prime, and alkalinity additives (when and if necessary based on testing)?

I culled (euphemism for killed :oops: ) the shrimp again last night, removed all the shells I could and now have a population with about 1 small shrimp per centimeter, approx.

These shrimp have been alive for a week now, which is great, but they are only slightly larger than they were 48 hours after putting them in water. I guess it's time to look at them in the scope and see what state they are in, as they still look like juveniles to my naked eye.

Would this filter be good in your opinion?

https://www.bigalspets.ca/quick-draw-co ... ilter.html

I'm also going to get this and re-mesh it with fine net so I have a reserved area to take samples and remove water without affecting the population:

https://www.bigalspets.ca/fish-net-breeder.html

Unfortunately I'm not anywhere near a marine environment, I'm right on Lake Ontario.

I'm not complicating the environment any more until the chemistry is stable and I have a good population of (hopefully procreating) adult shrimp. I think that makes the most sense, no?

edit: p.s., I'm feeding them frozen (i.e. dead) phytoplankton, namely "nanno sp. and tet sp" to quote the supplier.
DaveH wrote:Hi Shawn

You should be able to turn the temp down on your heater, keep an eye on the nitrites and if they are still going up then change 20% of the water over a week or two.

A quick note on nitrites, surplus food, rotting vegetation and fish wast all produce nitrites that are harmful, the way tuis is controlled in an aquarium is by the use of a filter most often a biological filter,
vegetation will also convert nitrites. The amount of nitrites produced will depend on the mass producing them, in my experience a few shrimp in a tank the size of your tank shouldn't produce enough nitrites before algae starts to grow on the sides, so I think the reason your nitrites are increasing is the number of shrimp, if I relate to keeping shrimp in a jar then each adult shrimp requires 2 square inches of water surface area you will still have shrimp at various stages of growth as well. Not many shrimp for the size of the tank you may think, but you are looking for the tank to support itself. At the moment if you discount light,heat and the air supply you have, you only have one component of your system and are waiting for the second component to appear, then the system will start to expand.

Don't rush trying to find the other bits yet, I don't know what the coastline is like where you are but if you find yourself at the seaside then grab a jar or two of sand from the low water line, a thin layer in your tank will provide a habitat for other life forms, may some stones or a rock with green growth on them will provide additional vegetation, a few shells from the beach or over here every beach has a bucket and spade shop they sell small pieces of coral these will provide a buffer for your tank. Don't rush out looking for bits take the opportunity when it appears. Hope this is of some help.

Dave

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#100 Post by DaveH » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:26 pm

Hi Shawn

I had assumed you had been looking on the net and been looking at the many hits about growing shrimp on and ramped the temp up to hurry them up, if the heater has no temp control on it and is from the pet/fish shop then I would take it back and get a replacement as it should heat the tank in the green area on the thermometer, I started a jar yesterday, put 15 to 20 in it, as we are heading for winter temp at my place is 65 to 70 F they will take a week plus to hatch, if you can keep them near the lower green area on the thermometer that would be good.

As Charlie g recommend any of that type of filter will be a good choice, it won't suck the shrimp up.

The shrimp are not growing probably because they are over crowded and there is not enough food for them, don't increase the food to much the system won't cope with it thin the shrimp out. As you have thinned the shrimp out leave it a week and see what happens. If you can it's best to prep the water the day before if you can and have room to store it, I wouldn't bother with the bacteria it's job is in a biological filter and as you have no filter at the moment I wouldn't add more. The bacteria need both a home and a food supply at the moment they technically have no home, the small filter will provide a very small bacterial filter and the tank will have enough in it to do the job, although it takes time to establish. The little breeding net will probably have netting fine enough to keep the shrimp out.
If you can have a look at a shrimp and see how far developed they are. Good the the 40X is working.

Dave

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#101 Post by shawngibson » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:36 pm

Hi Dave,

The heater has a green led (and sometimes it went red, if I recall?) but there is no dial or anything. I suppose that means the amount you submerse is the controlling factor?

"f you can keep them near the lower green area on the thermometer that would be good". I'm not quite sure what that means, sorry:(

I'll pick up the filter I linked to, or something similar, on Saturday when I have a chance to get to the fish store.

I have about a pound of 'dead rock' in the tank. Is that potentially adding anything biological? It's calcium carbonate I'm pretty sure.

I'll throw a few shrimp on the Barbecue tonight and have a look at what I've got. Very happy the 40x is working again:)

Shawn

DaveH wrote:Hi Shawn

I had assumed you had been looking on the net and been looking at the many hits about growing shrimp on and ramped the temp up to hurry them up, if the heater has no temp control on it and is from the pet/fish shop then I would take it back and get a replacement as it should heat the tank in the green area on the thermometer, I started a jar yesterday, put 15 to 20 in it, as we are heading for winter temp at my place is 65 to 70 F they will take a week plus to hatch, if you can keep them near the lower green area on the thermometer that would be good.

As Charlie g recommend any of that type of filter will be a good choice, it won't suck the shrimp up.

The shrimp are not growing probably because they are over crowded and there is not enough food for them, don't increase the food to much the system won't cope with it thin the shrimp out. As you have thinned the shrimp out leave it a week and see what happens. If you can it's best to prep the water the day before if you can and have room to store it, I wouldn't bother with the bacteria it's job is in a biological filter and as you have no filter at the moment I wouldn't add more. The bacteria need both a home and a food supply at the moment they technically have no home, the small filter will provide a very small bacterial filter and the tank will have enough in it to do the job, although it takes time to establish. The little breeding net will probably have netting fine enough to keep the shrimp out.
If you can have a look at a shrimp and see how far developed they are. Good the the 40X is working.

Dave

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#102 Post by DaveH » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:15 pm

Hi Shawn

I assume your thermometer has a green band on it, that is the recommended temperature range for keeping tropical fish usually 75 to 80 F, I would have thought the heater would be adjustable I order to suite this range, if it's pre set then I would expect it to hit 77 to 78 F, maybe have a look at the instructions.
The rock will probably slowly dissolve keep an eye on the PH that will show if there's any problam.

Dave

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#103 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:23 am

Hey Dave, Charlie. Tank failed miserably. Started to smell. Shrimp died. Pretty much everything I did was wrong at the beginning.

Starting over tomorrow, going to get a 20 G tank and live sand. Bought 2 large bio/mech foam filters (for fry), and activated carbon.

Made a little brine shrimp starter (I'll attach a pic here) to import into the tank once hatched (air stone at bottom, light at top), so no detritus/cysts in the main tank. I'll put cysts into it when the aquarium numbers are right.

My new goal is, VERY SLOWLY, the following:

1) get the tank chemical numbers right! This might take some time.
2) I have no idea (introduce autotrophs...cyanobacteria which the shrimp will eat, but only photoautotrophic cyanobacteria which means my light must be perfect). How do you grow spirulina in a marine environment?
3) grow some brine shrimp, a small sustainable number which can reproduce.

I am very unsure right now.

Shawn

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#104 Post by DaveH » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:43 am

Oh Shawn

Sorry to hear your tank has failed, it's gone all smelly for one reason that's to much organic matter in it. If you look at the mass of a single shrimp in your tank you will appreciate that the amount of food it needs is so small that you could never measure it, feed once a week or so. A small mouse living in a kitchen cupboard will happily live on a few crumbs left laying around unnoticed by the people living in the house. My money goes on over feeding.
Tank size is just a matter of choice you can achieve your project in any size vessel. I am mindful that this project has become expensive so I'm not going to encourage you to spend more money.
When you say you will get some live sand I assume you mean mature coral sand, often recommend for new start ups, traditionally marine tanks use under gravel filters where the water is circulated through the sand in the bottom of the tank bacteria build up on the surface of the sand and convert the nitrites, this only happens when two conditions are met firstly water has to flow through the entire bed, any dead spots will produce nitrates (counter productive), second the bacteria need a supply of oxygen this is achieved by a high flow rate through the filter, this is a completely different setup from the one you have been using.
I have been looking at spirulina and as far as I can see its fresh water but there must be a marine equivalent, when I work out how to copy a link from my iPad I will post a link showing some compleat cultures that won't break the bank.
Light has been a controversial talking point for years, you can't beat daylight, the thing to do is keep the one you've got until you find out what you are going to grow.
I think you are at a point where you have to decide on a clear direction regarding the tank, either set up a full marine tank, or go for a simple eco culture.

Dave

Ps you could use one of the bubble filters with some live sand in it.

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#105 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:11 pm

Thanks Dave. My goal remains the same, to form a largely self-sustaining food chain from bacteria and algae to brine shrimp.

Now that I have the bio/mech foam filters (these things: https://www.bigalspets.ca/breeder-sponge-filter-60.html) and activated carbon (this stuff: https://www.bigalspets.ca/black-diamond ... 10-oz.html) and a basic filter bag to put the carbon in, I assume, with a fresh start/new water, I have the capacity to filter biologicals?

I'm not sure how to utilize the carbon bag, except maybe to secure it at the bottom to a piece of dead rock with an air stone under it? I have a 3-way valve (was thinking ahead for once).

I agree I should spend as little as possible right now, and concentrate on what I have. On that note, maybe what I need to concentrate on, assuming I can get the chemicals to get in line, is a light source that will be conducive to the growth of algae. Should that be my next purchase, once the tank is in good shape, chemically? I have very limited access to light, and it's late autumn in Toronto now, so not a lot of light in the best of conditions.

1) get the chemistry perfect.
2) get some algae growing.
3) hatch brine shrimp in a separate environment and introduce the nauplii to the tank.

If I can get Big Al's (local fish store) to give me some algae scrapings from a big marine tank, would that in any way be beneficial?

edit: How's this for a light source:

https://www.bigalspets.ca/6-400k-cf-lam ... -25-w.html

"Promotes the growth of macro algae in refugium environments."

Shawn

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Re: Culturing a food chain

#106 Post by DaveH » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:48 pm

Hi Shawn

The filter is just another take on the bubble box filters so should be fine if you already have it run it on air then you wont vacuum the shrimp again, carbon usually goes in the filter so you could put it in a more conventional bubble filter. Lighting is one of those things that every manufacture clams to make the best light, you can only try it and see what happens, I would stick with what you have at the moment and upgrade later. If you can get some algae scrapings that would be a flying start definitely go for it. Don't get side tracked buy water chemistry, over here we would use tap water the only problem is the chlorine but if you set the tank up and leave it a couple of days the chlorine disperses.
I would set the tank up to the correct sg, check the ph and adjust if required, put the test kit in the cupboard and put 20 to 30 brine shrimp in, if you can get some algae scrapings put them in and grow the shrimp on, the body mass of the shrimp won't upset a 5 gallon tank for ages, don't over feed I think that was the problem before, and don't let the numbers drive you mad, feed using either spirulina or the dried food you bought from the shop use an amount that will fit on the head of a pin once a week, grow them on in the jar until you get the hang of it, just stir it up once a day and you should grow a few on ok.

Dave

charlie g
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#107 Post by charlie g » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:46 pm

Hi Shawn and Dave...sorry your aquatic system 'went south', Shawn. My son and I just enjoyed big screen saga: "The Martian"...we both enjoyed it...lot's of interplanetary considerations, lots of our dear globes machinations...and yes, yes,...the protagonist ( astronaut stranded on mars...hence he was 'the Martian'.)...the hero of this current big screen flick...had a setback related to your setback!

Here is my desperate 'pitch' to you, Shawn...don't give up...but pretty please consider a freshwater food chain/ ecologic microcosm...rather than 'salt water/ marine microcosm'...you are in my neck of the woods ( on a global scale)...why not 'tool up for a fresh water system. all the best...don't give up...in my Iowa family clan...it often is understood: ' you can not die in the corn field'. Consider a freshwater system naturally a part of your home environment! charlie guevara

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#108 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:58 pm

Hey Charlie, yes, a non-marine tank is in my head...daphnia. But as you say, I'm not giving up. So here is my LAST attempt at a marine environment.

Per Dave's advice, I tried to follow what Dave said. Today I cleaned the tank, bought a carbon "carpet" (for want of a better term).

The guys at my local fish store are sometimes very helpful, and sometimes not so much. Today I got lucky. I also got a free bag of algae:)
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shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#109 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:00 pm

Algae tank. During the day, I will give it sunlight; during the night, I have this set up:
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shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#110 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:04 pm

And a microscopic look at the algae from Big Al's. They were awesome today:)
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shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#111 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:07 pm

More algae:
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DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#112 Post by DaveH » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:38 pm

Hi Shawn and Charlie

Fresh water would be easier but I'm sure Shawn can grow shrimp to adult and they will breed as that's the only thing they know how to do.
The tank looks fine just think living mass, sorry to keep harping on abought mass but that's the be all and end all, it's a big help that the shop gave you some algae even if it disappears there will something left to growin the tank, on reflection the shop are probably telling you that a larger tank will be easier to set up and maintain in the fish keeping world they are correct, a bigger mass of water will take longer to go bad giving more time to get established, but we are back to living mass in your set up you will be lucky to to have a gram or two so the volume to mass ratio is large (ie large amount of water compared to the living mass). I have three shrimp in my jar at the moment and am hoping that a few more will turn up in the next day or two, I will see how long I can keep them alive for without doing anything to the water. If you can talk the shop into giving you a handful of mature sand for no cost when there in a helpful mood then it will make the tank more attractive but don't go to the expense of buying it everything comes to those that wait.
Just put 20 or 30 shrimp in the tank and they should be fine.

Dave

shawngibson
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#113 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:42 pm

Full setup:
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#114 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:47 pm

20-30 cysts. Repeat. 20-30 cysts. They even have their own home now to erupt within:)

Not 2000-3000 like last time. Blah:(

Even my cat walked up to me and said, hey dude, you know my stinky shit litter? This smells much worse...

Shawn
DaveH wrote:Hi Shawn and Charlie

Fresh water would be easier but I'm sure Shawn can grow shrimp to adult and they will breed as that's the only thing they know how to do.
The tank looks fine just think living mass, sorry to keep harping on abought mass but that's the be all and end all, it's a big help that the shop gave you some algae even if it disappears there will something left to growin the tank, on reflection the shop are probably telling you that a larger tank will be easier to set up and maintain in the fish keeping world they are correct, a bigger mass of water will take longer to go bad giving more time to get established, but we are back to living mass in your set up you will be lucky to to have a gram or two so the volume to mass ratio is large (ie large amount of water compared to the living mass). I have three shrimp in my jar at the moment and am hoping that a few more will turn up in the next day or two, I will see how long I can keep them alive for without doing anything to the water. If you can talk the shop into giving you a handful of mature sand for no cost when there in a helpful mood then it will make the tank more attractive but don't go to the expense of buying it everything comes to those that wait.
Just put 20 or 30 shrimp in the tank and they should be fine.

Dave

DaveH
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Re: Culturing a food chain

#115 Post by DaveH » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:54 pm

Yes 20 to 30 if you lose them they won't turn the tank, and you can repeat doing that loads of times if you have to, is the dish for the algae you are collecting from the lake or is it for this project, if it's for this project I would just put it in the tank. If you search eBay for marine Rotifers you should find a supply at a fraction of the cost of your last lot you can also get plankton cultures, just a thought for stage two.

Dave

shawngibson
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:39 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Culturing a food chain

#116 Post by shawngibson » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:59 pm

First numbers with no life in the tank:

Ammonia: 0
sg: 1.021
Temp: 74 F
Alkalinity: not desired (??? that doesn't make sense to me)
pH: "Acceptable"
Nitrates and nitrites: both at the lowest: PERFECT

shawngibson
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:39 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Culturing a food chain

#117 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:01 am

Algae is from a thriving marine tank with corals at my local fish store. Edit: sorry, 'tank' is an old glass thing, no fresh water, recently wiped with dry towel.

20-30 cysts. I must remember this. It's the most important thing right now. Not 100s or 1000s.
DaveH wrote:Yes 20 to 30 if you lose them they won't turn the tank, and you can repeat doing that loads of times if you have to, is the dish for the algae you are collecting from the lake or is it for this project, if it's for this project I would just put it in the tank. If you search eBay for marine Rotifers you should find a supply at a fraction of the cost of your last lot you can also get plankton cultures, just a thought for stage two.

Dave

shawngibson
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:39 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Culturing a food chain

#118 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:11 am

Dave, I'll introduce rotifers and copepods after I have 1 brine shrimp that propagates. It's actually very hard to get rotifers and copepods in Toronto, and the guy who sold me the first batch is very respected, so once I have a thriving environment (I've showed him that there were no rotifers or copepods in his last batch), I might get a good discount. Frankly, it should be free, since the day I bought it, under my scope, I saw nothing, and showed him that.

shawngibson
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:39 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Culturing a food chain

#119 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:19 am

Annotated...
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shawngibson
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:39 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Culturing a food chain

#120 Post by shawngibson » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:57 pm

DaveH wrote:Yes 20 to 30 if you lose them they won't turn the tank, and you can repeat doing that loads of times if you have to, is the dish for the algae you are collecting from the lake or is it for this project, if it's for this project I would just put it in the tank. If you search eBay for marine Rotifers you should find a supply at a fraction of the cost of your last lot you can also get plankton cultures, just a thought for stage two.

Dave
Hi Dave,

Added the algae and a pinch of cysts this morning. Numbers are very good, save pH which is "acceptable". Not having the dead cysts and empty shells bugger up the tank is an awesome progression:)

The advice I've gotten re: algae light mirrors your thoughts, i.e. it's hit-and-miss. The saltwater 'expert' at my LFS said for micro and macro algae, you might indeed want a cold and a warm source. So I've done this (for now, clearly a temporary solution). In-tank is daylight; external light is 4300 deg Tungsten.

I've also included a pic of the hatchery. Fingers crossed:)

Shawn
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