Makeshift vibration isolation?

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josmann
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Makeshift vibration isolation?

#1 Post by josmann » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:27 am

Hey folks - just curious if anyone's ever come up with a good makeshift vibration isolation table. California's getting hit by something of a cyclone right now and the wind is ripping so hard it's vibrating my apartment! And, of course, it'd be nice to walk around without vibrating my camera if I'm dwelling on a subject for a while.

Looks like amazon has a fair amount of vibration isolation stuff for speakers and record players and whatnot - anybody ever try something they liked for the scope?
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microb
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#2 Post by microb » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:32 am

Here's a thread: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11715

The rubber blocks are smelly from lots of plasticizers that can corrode metals. And didn't do much. The pinpoint stereo system vibration set-ups didn't seem to help either. There is the Veeco isolator shown here next to a #D print I made with five springs. I can't remember if the test 3D prints helped much. I'd have to dig up the videos. But I did try tennis balls and racket balls -- why not? Stomping around still showed in the videos. But I guess it helped a tiny bit. I have videos of the interference objective and the response it had to these set-ups.

Silicon Valley years ago, would just use a granite surface plate. That's still done today, although a lot of optical table set-ups are used now. The extra weight adds a resistance in momentum.

The Veeco isolation are sold for research set-ups. Links are given in the thread above.
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Scarodactyl
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#3 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:30 am

I've found sorbothane very helpful but my microscope has angled narrow corners that eventually sink right through and cut the sorbothane in half so it doesn't last too long.

Dubious
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#4 Post by Dubious » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:10 am

With a heavy table top, don't you want the microscope to be connected to it as solidly as possible (i.e. no insulation between that might encourage independent movement) so as to partake of its mass-derived inertial resistance to movement? Or am I looking at it wrong?

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#5 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:40 am

Instead of reiterating; may I refer you to this previous discussion : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6443

… and particularly to my comment that
The most cost-effective solution I have ever seen was devised by Lester Lefkowitz, and described in his 1979 book 'The Manual of Close-Up Photography' ...
MichaelG.
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#6 Post by josmann » Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:36 am

Thanks for the ideas guys. I know there's a bunch of granite/marble places by my work so maybe I'll loiter around to see if I can get filch a nice scrap slab. I also like the idea of some sort of airbag isolation mount - might experiment with that although it might not be the most stable solution in terms of long term installation.

The other thing that occurs to me is that I can definitely feel where the cross supports are under the floor so maybe I can move my setup such that the table and scope are nicely positioned on one of those and not in between where it's all trampoline-y.

A few months ago I was considering moving out and was eyeing this inlaw unit that had poured concrete floors. Now I'm regretting not pulling the trigger :lol:
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#7 Post by Dubious » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:24 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:40 am
Instead of reiterating; may I refer you to this previous discussion : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6443

… and particularly to my comment that
The most cost-effective solution I have ever seen was devised by Lester Lefkowitz, and described in his 1979 book 'The Manual of Close-Up Photography' ...
MichaelG.
That doesn't entirely answer my question, but looking at the examples and putting it together, I believe I am right that putting insulating material between the microscope and the table top would usually not be a good idea. That is, you want whatever the microscope sits on to be as heavy as possible, whether it's the actual table top or a granite slab on the table top. But, putting insulating material between the microscope and what it sits on would defeat the goal of having the microscope be part of the massive table top/granite slab for inertial purposes. (Maybe it would help in situations where the microscope was on a light-weight structure.)

Anyway, good information and ideas. I definitely need to do more to dampen vibration. Unless I come across a suitable granite slab, I think I'll take a workbench that has a 2-inch wood top and simply bolt weights to the underside--I have a collection of no-longer-used barbell weights that might work.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#8 Post by dtsh » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:04 pm

Dubious wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:24 pm
Anyway, good information and ideas. I definitely need to do more to dampen vibration. Unless I come across a suitable granite slab, I think I'll take a workbench that has a 2-inch wood top and simply bolt weights to the underside--I have a collection of no-longer-used barbell weights that might work.
I didn't see it mentioned, but if you have a monument shop nearby that carves granite headstones for graves and other markers, you can probably get a small off-cut or other discard that is smooth enough on both sides to serve as well.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#9 Post by 75RR » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:38 pm

josmann wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:36 am
Thanks for the ideas guys. I know there's a bunch of granite/marble places by my work so maybe I'll loiter around to see if I can get filch a nice scrap slab.
I spent a long time (months) peering into skips hoping to find a suitable slab of marble.

When I finally did find something that looked promising and took it to a marble workshop to have it cut to size I found out

that buying a slab costs pretty much the same as bringing in a slab and having it cut.

Plus you get to choose the marble. Note that they vary in colour, pattern and density.

Big improvement on both the book and the wooden board I had tried previously.

Only 3cm thick but it provides plenty of stability + gives me the height needed to fit either the 60w or the 100w external lamp-house.
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PeteM
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#10 Post by PeteM » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:20 pm

It's best to know the source of the vibration, before attempting to mitigate it.

For example, if it is from passing vehicles (or footfalls in a lab with a springy floor) a heavy isolation table on vibration mounts can be effective - especially if tuned to avoid the resonant frequency. If it's from a California tremor, all bets are off :-).

If it's from camera shutters or curtains operating, a slab with a scope resting on top of it won't be much if any improved. One can see, in disassembling old 35mm film camera shutters meant for microscopy, that great care was taken to make the shutter as light as possible and to isolate it (tiny little flexible dampers) from the rest of the photo unit. Many modern mirrorless cameras also avoid disturbances from mirrors moving and shutter curtains.

One of the best "vibration isolation" methods for photos for lower frequency vibration is to use a flash. And, for the most part, the high frequency stuff is less likely to disturb a fairly massive scope.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#11 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:52 pm

Dubious wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:24 pm
That doesn't entirely answer my question …
Sorry … the introductory bit that I left our was :

“Having worked for several years in a Vibration Test facility … ”

To cut to the chase : In the absence of an infinitely heavy and stiff “mechanical earth” I would recommend that you mount the microscope “hard” on a heavy slab, and isolate that from outside influence with a resonant frequency of 4Hz or less.

MichaelG.
.

Edit: __ This might help: https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... up_id=8275
Too many 'projects'

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#12 Post by DonSchaeffer » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:49 pm

I really am having trouble because my arm vibrates the computer when I ride the focus knob and the mechanical stage to keep protists in focus. Thanks for those suggestions. I found some thin foam packaging material. I'm going to try that.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#13 Post by Dubious » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:10 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:52 pm
Dubious wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:24 pm
That doesn't entirely answer my question …
Sorry … the introductory bit that I left our was :

“Having worked for several years in a Vibration Test facility … ”

To cut to the chase : In the absence of an infinitely heavy and stiff “mechanical earth” I would recommend that you mount the microscope “hard” on a heavy slab, and isolate that from outside influence with a resonant frequency of 4Hz or less.

MichaelG.
.

Edit: __ This might help: https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... up_id=8275
Thanks. The ThorLabs information is interesting. Their tables are a bit pricey, but I suppose for a research lab that is spending obscene amounts on high-end microscopes and related equipment, the tables would seem downright reasonable.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#14 Post by dazz » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:01 am

Hi
I have my 3D printer mounted on a concrete paving stone, isolated from the table it sits on.
Concrete is cheaper than marble.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#15 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:57 pm

dazz wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:01 am
Hi
I have my 3D printer mounted on a concrete paving stone, isolated from the table it sits on.
Concrete is cheaper than marble.
See post #5 above :ugeek:

MichaelG.
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#16 Post by Dubious » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:29 am

dazz wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:01 am
Hi
I have my 3D printer mounted on a concrete paving stone, isolated from the table it sits on.
Concrete is cheaper than marble.
With a 3D printer, the vibration is mainly internally generated unlike with a microscope (unless talking about shutter shock, which is another subject); but, to the degree inertial dampening helps, I would think a suitably heavy slab of concrete would work quite well. MichaelG's link to ThorLabs provides a lot of information on the methods used to dampen vibration for an optical table, which has apparently been the subject of some research. While a microscope probably does not require a full-blown optical table, the principles are the same.

"Ideally, an optical table should maintain a rigid and flat upper surface without being overly massive. The table is then mounted seismically, usually on air springs, to prevent the coupling of ambient background vibration. In the past, tabletops have been constructed from granite, concrete, wood, steel, and a variety of unusual composite structures in attempts to improve performance while keeping weight at an acceptable level. Although each of these materials was found to have advantages and disadvantages, the best overall performance was achieved using a composite construction technique. Consequently, a clad metal honeycomb sandwiched between two flat plates (as seen in Figure 2) is now generally accepted as the best material for optical tabletop and optical breadboard construction."

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... up_id=8275

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#17 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:25 am

In my own situation I have external illuminators generating their own vibrations, and a very heavy microscope. So in this case isolating illuminator and microacope from the table worked fine. That said, I may go with a different approach now that I'm going to be reorganizing everything.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#18 Post by Dubious » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:57 am

I noticed this very heavy/expensive microscope table on Ebay and remembered our vibration-dampening discussion:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224796821021?h ... SwVNRh5pwa

I googled "TMC air table" to find the manufacturer's website and found that, among other things, TMC makes an innovative table-top vibration dampener (sits between the microscope and table) that uses active piezoelectric technology:

"Designed to isolate ultra-precision instruments from building floor vibration down to below 1 Hz, the Everstill K-400 is ideal for optical microscopes, SPMs, and metrology instruments. With Gainmatch™ (patent pending), easily choose one of three gain settings to achieve optimal performance in your environment.

With technology evolving from TMC's STACIS® piezoelectric vibration cancellation, Everstill is an active hard-mount that cancels vibration starting at 0.7 Hz. Specifically designed for maximum low frequency performance, Everstill excels in the critical 1-10 Hz range where precision instruments tend to be the most sensitive."

https://www.techmfg.com/products/bencht ... still-k400

No idea what the Everstill K-400 costs, but seems like a great idea.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#19 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:48 am

.

What an excellent find … Thanks, Dubious !

It is, however, worth understanding the description of its purpose:
advanced floor vibration control.
This one will not do much to control vibrations generated in the region of the microscope.

I have just downloaded the referenced patent for further study :geek:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/ ... S8899393B2
[ pdf download is accessible via the ‘three dot’ menu ]

But the new patent for Gainmatch™ appears to be still pending …

MichaelG.

.
Note: __ It reminds me of the debate amongst Audiophiles, about the relative merits of [simple but well-made] heavy turntables and the lightweight ones [with ‘clever’ Direct Drive motors].
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#20 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:08 am

Dubious wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:57 am
https://www.techmfg.com/products/bencht ... still-k400

No idea what the Everstill K-400 costs, but seems like a great idea.
I often get the perhaps incorrect impression, that vibration dampening is targeted at heavy microscopes, weighing tens of kilograms.
Here is an accessory for the Everstill that seems to support the impression..
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Dubious
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#21 Post by Dubious » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:51 pm

I suspect it's not so much that vibration dampening products target heavy microscopes because of their weight as that laboratory microscopes tend to be heavy. Because of its greater mass/at-rest inertia, a heavier microscope is already more protected against vibration compared to a lighter microscope. This "load plate" you found is interesting. I wonder if it just builds on that principle, giving the microscope more mass so as to make it more resistant to vibration even without the K400, or if it is needed because the algorithms that guide the K400's active circuitry assume a certain ballpark payload mass?

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#22 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:49 pm

I'd assume the ltter, but that the latter is because of the former. Aim for heavy scopes, and if they aren't heavy make them heavy since it's easier than making them light and has its own benefits.

Greg Howald
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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#23 Post by Greg Howald » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:02 am

Truth us, if I had to be vibration free I'd have to go down about ten feet. :lol:

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#24 Post by Finelld » Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:51 pm

Check out holographic websites. Making holograms require system movement less than 1/2 wavelength. One of the best solutions I’ve seen is using a gravestone on inner tubes.

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Re: Makeshift vibration isolation?

#25 Post by microb » Sat Sep 02, 2023 3:25 pm

dtsh wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:04 pm
Dubious wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:24 pm
Anyway, good information and ideas. I definitely need to do more to dampen vibration. Unless I come across a suitable granite slab, I think I'll take a workbench that has a 2-inch wood top and simply bolt weights to the underside--I have a collection of no-longer-used barbell weights that might work.
I didn't see it mentioned, but if you have a monument shop nearby that carves granite headstones for graves and other markers, you can probably get a small off-cut or other discard that is smooth enough on both sides to serve as well.
Search Facebook marketplace and ebat for granite surface plate. They're not that expensive. Also gravestone makers always have mispellings, so if you can hide the front somehow, you can get a nice parallel surfaced granite stone for cheap. It just has a name and date with typo somewhere. One person was build a stone wall with the, using the rough cut side as the expose part of the stone wall. Personally, I'd just buy a surface plate for $25 to $50 depending on size. They're around.

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