Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

Here you can discuss all microscopy-related accessories and equipment (microtomes, filters...)
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ebenbildmicroscopy
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Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#1 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:52 am

One of my favorite Germans has just made a French connection...

I just acquired this De Fonbrune micromanipulator, having used one extensively in the mycology lab of the late James F. Wilson back in the late 80s. I will be using this one in conjunction with a Leitz mechanical micromanipulator. The plus of these hydraulic systems is that you can remotely control the micro tools. Spending hours at one of these setups can lead to fatigue and something as simple as where the joystick is can make a huge difference in comfort over time.

This is one of the later De Fonbrunes, the earlier models featured plated canister style sheaths over the master cylinders that added a somewhat beefier and more elegant appearance. Shown also is one of my 3 Leitz Laborlux IIs. This one is going to get a complete, museum quality airbrush paint restoration. The scope, unusually, sports a full sized later model Ortholux I stage - which I love - it's like working on the deck of an aircraft carrier! I'm really looking forward to playing with this setup and will hopefully have more posting content soon!!

JeffO, ebenbildmicroscopy
Attachments
microinject1.jpg
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microinject2.jpg
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microinject3.jpg
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microinject4.jpg
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microinject5.jpg
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JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
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75RR
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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#2 Post by 75RR » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:42 am

That is one cool looking instrument!

Any chance of a video showing its movement?
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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#3 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:03 am

75RR wrote:That is one cool looking instrument!

Any chance of a video showing its movement?
THANK YOU!! When I have described these manipulators to people who are non-microscopists, I've always started with, "Imagine if Darth Vader had an Atari game system, the De Fonbrune would be his joystick!!"

You'll have to be patient with me making a video... I'm just learning how on a Canon Rebel T3i... I'm in the process of setting up a very nice YouTube studio especially dedicated to microscopy in addition to featuring repair and machining videos related to microscope repair - (I'm a machinist/optical instrument repairman).

JeffO
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#4 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:42 am

Here's a few more close-ups of the engraving, the master cylinders, and the slave diaphragms/cylinders. That's gotta be hand engraving.
Attachments
DeFonbrune1.jpg
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DeFonbrune2.jpg
DeFonbrune2.jpg (86.91 KiB) Viewed 14953 times
DeFonbrune3.jpg
DeFonbrune3.jpg (100.85 KiB) Viewed 14953 times
DeFonbrune4.jpg
DeFonbrune4.jpg (108.47 KiB) Viewed 14953 times
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
Leitz Macro-Dia Device
Zeiss GFL
Zeiss Standard
Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#5 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:57 am

A wonderful acquisition, JeffO
... and it looks to be in fantastic condition.

MichaelG.
.
.
Edit: Here is a brief biography of our hero
https://webext.pasteur.fr/archives/fnb0.html
DeepL (recently mentioned on this forum) does a creditable job of translating this to English
https://www.deepl.com/translate
Too many 'projects'

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#6 Post by MicroBob » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:08 am

Hi JeffO,
thank you for presenting this rare apparatus! Now I know the background the inventors of the first computer games must have had! :lol:

Bob

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#7 Post by Bryan » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:23 pm

That's very interesting, what does it use for the hydraulics, water, oil, air?

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#8 Post by billbillt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:36 pm

That is machine engraving... Engraving machines have been produced for several hundred years....

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#9 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:32 pm

billbillt wrote:That is machine engraving... Engraving machines have been produced for several hundred years....
That may be machine engraving to drive the graver but it is not following a template. I ran a Deckel G1L German engraving pantograph in the microscope dept of Carolina Biological for a couple of years, and we even had the cylinder jig that would allow engraving over the barrel of an objective or the little hand-held, plated microtomes the master machinist made in house.

The reason I believe this engraving to be free form is because the letters are not consistent - just like hand writing.
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
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Zeiss GFL
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Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#10 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:40 pm

Bryan wrote:That's very interesting, what does it use for the hydraulics, water, oil, air?
It uses a clear oil that, to me, seems to be common mineral oil. The cylinders are sealed by black (I'm assuming) rubber O-rings so, the oil may not be petroleum based. This setup came from an estate so I'm also assuming it's probably been in the system for years. I'm anxious to set up a dial indicator and a stage micrometer to measure what the ratio of movement is.
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
Leitz Macro-Dia Device
Zeiss GFL
Zeiss Standard
Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#11 Post by billbillt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:52 pm

ebenbildmicroscopy wrote:
billbillt wrote:That is machine engraving... Engraving machines have been produced for several hundred years....
That may be machine engraving to drive the graver but it is not following a template. I ran a Deckel G1L German engraving pantograph in the microscope dept of Carolina Biological for a couple of years, and we even had the cylinder jig that would allow engraving over the barrel of an objective or the little hand-held, plated microtomes the master machinist made in house.

The reason I believe this engraving to be free form is because the letters are not consistent - just like hand writing.
Quite possible, but some numbers/letters are too perfect...
BillT

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#12 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:16 pm

billbillt wrote:
ebenbildmicroscopy wrote:
billbillt wrote:That is machine engraving... Engraving machines have been produced for several hundred years....
That may be machine engraving to drive the graver but it is not following a template. I ran a Deckel G1L German engraving pantograph in the microscope dept of Carolina Biological for a couple of years, and we even had the cylinder jig that would allow engraving over the barrel of an objective or the little hand-held, plated microtomes the master machinist made in house.

The reason I believe this engraving to be free form is because the letters are not consistent - just like hand writing.
Quite possible, but some numbers/letters are too perfect...
BillT
It looks like hand engraving to me ... but surely there is an easy way for a microscopist to check.
Let's see some detail photos please JeffO.

MichaelG.
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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#13 Post by billbillt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:26 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
billbillt wrote:
ebenbildmicroscopy wrote:
That may be machine engraving to drive the graver but it is not following a template. I ran a Deckel G1L German engraving pantograph in the microscope dept of Carolina Biological for a couple of years, and we even had the cylinder jig that would allow engraving over the barrel of an objective or the little hand-held, plated microtomes the master machinist made in house.

The reason I believe this engraving to be free form is because the letters are not consistent - just like hand writing.
Quite possible, but some numbers/letters are too perfect...
BillT
It looks like hand engraving to me ... but surely there is an easy way for a microscopist to check.
Let's see some detail photos please JeffO.

MichaelG.
I downloaded one of the pics and zoomed in on the numbers... some look too perfect to be done by hand,,, I have also been involved with machine engraving....

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#14 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:34 pm

billbillt wrote:I downloaded one of the pics and zoomed in on the numbers... some look too perfect to be done by hand,,, I have also been involved with machine engraving....
Sorry ... I evidently didn't make myself clear: I was hoping that JeffO might take a full frame image of one character, so that we could see the tool marks.

MichaelG.
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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#15 Post by billbillt » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:50 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
billbillt wrote:I downloaded one of the pics and zoomed in on the numbers... some look too perfect to be done by hand,,, I have also been involved with machine engraving....
Sorry ... I evidently didn't make myself clear: I was hoping that JeffO might take a full frame image of one character, so that we could see the tool marks.

MichaelG.
I UNDERSTAND.. I WAS JUST POSTING WHAT I HAD DONE....

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#16 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:31 am

I've been looking for an excuse to try and mate my Canon DSLR with the big Zeiss surgical microscope Stemi 6S out in the machine shop - this may be a good time to see if I've got an adapter that'll do it. The Zeiss has a long working distance as well as a great depth of field for detail work.

I keep comparing the "stumps" of the number 4 and the "front legs" of the letter R... why I think it resembles very fine hand engraving.

Lemme see what I can rig up out on the repair bench with the Zeiss

JeffO, ebenbildmicroscopy
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
Leitz Macro-Dia Device
Zeiss GFL
Zeiss Standard
Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#17 Post by mnmyco » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:47 am

The "Ms" appear to be of different widths and the details at the tops of the "Ms" and the "Ns" do not appear consistent to me. Still it is pretty perfect looking overall. Either way, it is a nice machine. Any idea what the mycology lab was using it for? Professional interest on my part.

mnMYCO

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#18 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:00 am

mnmyco wrote:The "Ms" appear to be of different widths and the details at the tops of the "Ms" and the "Ns" do not appear consistent to me. Still it is pretty perfect looking overall. Either way, it is a nice machine. Any idea what the mycology lab was using it for? Professional interest on my part.

mnMYCO
I was a biology undergraduate working in the lab of James F. Wilson back in 1989. Wilson had received his PhD from Stanford University in the mid 1960s having been a student of the 1958 Nobel laureate, Edward Tatum who, along with George Beadle and Joshua Lederberg, received the Nobel prize for Medicine and Physiology for their work, in short, proving that chromosomes control chemical events in cells - in this case - those of the orange bread mold, Neurospora crassa.

Dr. Wilson studied non-mating types (ie, those not occurring in nature) by inducing them to occur through the use of micro-injection. Neurospora vegetative hyphae are very similar to how a bamboo shoot grows, with septate walls discerning the cells. We would use the de Fonbrune to pierce the outer hyphae, go through a naturally occurring pore in the center of the septa into the next cell over, inject the nuclear material, and then remove the glass needle that was thinner than a human hair. The sudden loss of pressure in the initial injection site would cause a crystal to plug the pore and we would then grow up the mold on agar and subject subsequent "generations" to various nutritional deficiencies to demonstrate how the genes "expressed". It was fascinating, but very obscure, work. Wilson had made his own micro-forge for making the needles and we did the injection work under an old B&L scope that had been modified in California. *This* de Fonbrune in my posting is actually an Ebay purchase - I've been looking for one for several years. I don't know what became of Wilson's - he died, at 93, several years ago. His was the older more ornate version that had a beautiful greenish, hammertone paint finish.
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
Leitz Macro-Dia Device
Zeiss GFL
Zeiss Standard
Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#19 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:18 am

ebenbildmicroscopy wrote:I've been looking for an excuse to try and mate my Canon DSLR with the big Zeiss surgical microscope Stemi 6S out in the machine shop - this may be a good time to see if I've got an adapter that'll do it. The Zeiss has a long working distance as well as a great depth of field for detail work.

I keep comparing the "stumps" of the number 4 and the "front legs" of the letter R... why I think it resembles very fine hand engraving.

Lemme see what I can rig up out on the repair bench with the Zeiss

JeffO, ebenbildmicroscopy
Thanks JeffO ... That should be an interesting forensic exercise [whatever the result]

MichaelG.
.
.
P.S. ... I found this last night: http://www.cablesfarm.co.uk/category/engraving/
... It's amazing what was, and is, possible !
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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#20 Post by mnmyco » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:24 pm

ebenbildmicroscopy wrote:
mnmyco wrote:The "Ms" appear to be of different widths and the details at the tops of the "Ms" and the "Ns" do not appear consistent to me. Still it is pretty perfect looking overall. Either way, it is a nice machine. Any idea what the mycology lab was using it for? Professional interest on my part.

mnMYCO
I was a biology undergraduate working in the lab of James F. Wilson back in 1989. Wilson had received his PhD from Stanford University in the mid 1960s having been a student of the 1958 Nobel laureate, Edward Tatum who, along with George Beadle and Joshua Lederberg, received the Nobel prize for Medicine and Physiology for their work, in short, proving that chromosomes control chemical events in cells - in this case - those of the orange bread mold, Neurospora crassa.

Dr. Wilson studied non-mating types (ie, those not occurring in nature) by inducing them to occur through the use of micro-injection. Neurospora vegetative hyphae are very similar to how a bamboo shoot grows, with septate walls discerning the cells. We would use the de Fonbrune to pierce the outer hyphae, go through a naturally occurring pore in the center of the septa into the next cell over, inject the nuclear material, and then remove the glass needle that was thinner than a human hair. The sudden loss of pressure in the initial injection site would cause a crystal to plug the pore and we would then grow up the mold on agar and subject subsequent "generations" to various nutritional deficiencies to demonstrate how the genes "expressed". It was fascinating, but very obscure, work. Wilson had made his own micro-forge for making the needles and we did the injection work under an old B&L scope that had been modified in California. *This* de Fonbrune in my posting is actually an Ebay purchase - I've been looking for one for several years. I don't know what became of Wilson's - he died, at 93, several years ago. His was the older more ornate version that had a beautiful greenish, hammertone paint finish.
Interesting work. I have a PhD in mycology, and it is always nice to find one of the few people who have even worked in a mycology lab. My work was one molecular ecology and systematics (building species trees). I did some work as a post-doc on growing shiitakes for sequencing their genomes and the RNAs expressed as we grew them. That work is pretty close to what you have described, though the methods used are very different the goals are similar.

mnmyco

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#21 Post by charlie g » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:11 pm

Thanks for sharing this beautiful stand and your micromanipulator purchase, Jeff O. ( the eBay price points for these micromanipulators has kept me at bay for years...I do have a Nikon micromanipulator microscope stage...same oil hydraulics...if I dig out it's manual..it may state the hydraulic fluid used.).

I especially appreciate ( I,m sure all forum folk do as well!) your descirpition of your class days mycologic lab research activities, thank you, thank you for taking the time to share this. So good to hear your recollections of your Professor and his work. I had an undergrad course and the test was:" Genetics", by Strickland?? (1972 my course)...Nerospora illustrations, the manipulations of it's spores, the inferences from this molds biology, and your cited Profs name and work...filled a few dense chapters of the Strikland text.

Yours hands on genetic work with microscope and micromanipulator quite profound and fascinating...bravo post, Jeff O. BTW...when I hold a hand lens up to my computer screen, quite a few of the engraved letters have different terminal endings...I'm talking the same alphabet letter..in the same string of engraved characters...my sense is it's high craftmanship free form hand generated engraving.

Wonderful instruments you showcase here, Jeff O. Charlie Guevara, finger lakes/US

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#22 Post by MicroBob » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:41 pm

Hi JeffO,
these engravings are really nice! To me they look handmade by somebody who did this regularly. I know the Deckel engraving machines, but they were milling the material away. This looks as if cut with an engraving chisel to me. Have there ever been machines that worked with a pushed chisel?

On old technical drawings one sometimes finds very precise "Normschrift" written by hand. Not as even as written with with letter templates, but much nicer to look at.

Bob

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#23 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:05 am

MicroBob wrote:Hi JeffO,
these engravings are really nice! To me they look handmade by somebody who did this regularly. I know the Deckel engraving machines, but they were milling the material away. This looks as if cut with an engraving chisel to me. Have there ever been machines that worked with a pushed chisel?

On old technical drawings one sometimes finds very precise "Normschrift" written by hand. Not as even as written with with letter templates, but much nicer to look at.

Bob
YESSSS! They're definitely hand engraved! And your description of "milling" material out is PRECISELY what the pantographs do! In fact, in a pinch, they can be adapted to do light milling when no mill is present - had to do it once!
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
Leitz Macro-Dia Device
Zeiss GFL
Zeiss Standard
Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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Re: Forgive me if I try to manipulate you, a little!!

#24 Post by ebenbildmicroscopy » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:17 am

GUYS! I am humbled by your responses to my post... I have been, through no credit of my own, fortunate to learn from some mighty giants of microscopy and machining and hope to share more of those experiences
JeffO, aka "Ortho amore"
Leitz Ortholux I
Leitz Orthoplan
Leitz Macro-Dia Device
Zeiss GFL
Zeiss Standard
Zeiss Photomicroscope III
Zeiss OPMI 6S
B&L Stereozoom and Balplan

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