Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

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Zwei²Lines
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Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#1 Post by Zwei²Lines » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:58 am

Hello.
I'm a relatively experienced microscopist looking to purchase a second hand Ph microscope--preferably from one of the big 4 (Leica, Olympus, Nikon & and Zeiss).
Specifically, I'm looking for people who have owned such systems who could provide model suggestions based on their own experiences. Some other brands such as Meiji and Motic have been suggested in the past; What's the general consensus of these lines?

I'd be grateful if anybody could find the time to vouch their thoughts in this thread
Thanks in advance

Alexander
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#2 Post by Alexander » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:05 am

Two older phase contrast scope I own. A Leitz Dialux and a Leitz Diavert. The Dialux is from 1971 the Diavert from about 1980. The Leitz 402a condenser is a quite comfortable thing. It offers 6 positions for annuli. One is always empty for bright field and one is typically for dark field. The others are for phase contrast. My Dialux supports phase contrast with objectives from 10x to 100x immersion by just switching the wheel on the condenser. Objectives are well available on the used market at reasonable pricing. The stands are old school quality. Rock solid with almost no plastic parts. All the knobs are metal for example. Due to their age most of those scopes offered for sale today need service and re-lubrication. Luckily I have access to a very competent service expert knowing everything about Leitz scopes and sitting next a shelf full of spare parts.

Zwei²Lines
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#3 Post by Zwei²Lines » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:34 am

Alexander wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:05 am
Two older phase contrast scope I own. A Leitz Dialux and a Leitz Diavert. The Dialux is from 1971 the Diavert from about 1980. The Leitz 402a condenser is a quite comfortable thing. It offers 6 positions for annuli. One is always empty for bright field and one is typically for dark field. The others are for phase contrast. My Dialux supports phase contrast with objectives from 10x to 100x immersion by just switching the wheel on the condenser. Objectives are well available on the used market at reasonable pricing. The stands are old school quality. Rock solid with almost no plastic parts. All the knobs are metal for example. Due to their age most of those scopes offered for sale today need service and re-lubrication. Luckily I have access to a very competent service expert knowing everything about Leitz scopes and sitting next a shelf full of spare parts.
Thanks for the reply.
The Diavert is an inverted scope right?
I'm curious about how one would enter the used market. What websites would you recommend?
Thanks

Alexander
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#4 Post by Alexander » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:31 am

Yes, the Diavert is a inverted scope. It has much in common with the Ortholux II and the grey Dialux from its time and shares many components with them. It came with a LWD condensor A0.25 L62 and a phase contrast annulus Phaco 1 which fits the LWD objectives typically found on inverted scopes. All other Leitz condensers from the 400 and 600 series could be used as well if you want more picture resolution or to use Phaco 2 or Phaco 3 objectives.

You will find many things on Ebay. A trustworthy local dealer of used microscopes might be a better start though.

TonyT
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#5 Post by TonyT » Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:40 pm

I have an Olympus phase contrast (BH2-PC) for my BH2/BHS scope; works well but never used!
Because I also have an Olympus DIC setup (BH2-NIC) for the same scope which I think gives better results than the phase; also a lot easier to use.
The BHS with the brighter light (100watt?) is a better option than the 'regular' BH2 (12watt?)
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apochronaut
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#6 Post by apochronaut » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:54 pm

Many of the manufacturers of phase systems produce(d) simple phase systems, having defaulted to a single type of phase system. Dark phase medium contrast. That's what you get when the description is phase contrast unless otherwise qualified.
Other makers have produced and still do produce other types of phase as well, usable with the same condenser. Anoptral, Bright, Positive, Negative , B-Minus L and Apodized are some of the other terms used and some of them are available in various contrast ranges, low, medium and high.
These alternative forms of phase have the capacity to reveal more or different information and are selected by a change in the objective only, greatly expanding the capability of phase.
If I were searching out a phase contrast microscope I would be looking for a system that has at least some of those other phase options available .
Adfitionally, many systems are based only on achromat or plan achromat colour correction. Again , many of the better manufacturers offer fluorite or apochromat objectives for phase. There is a considerable difference in the imaging of achromat phase compared to apochromat.

PeteM
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#7 Post by PeteM » Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:06 pm

It does seem that demand (and eBay prices) for Olympus BH2 phase systems have risen a bit beyond reason. I've seen some sell, with just phase achromats, for well over $1K. They're very good, but not necessarily better than some of those listed below.

Others I've used and can recommend include the Leitz Laborlux versions with off-white frames, Nikon Labophot and Optiphot -especially with "CFN" phase objectives which compare to Olympus SPlans, Reichert Microstar IV, and Zeiss Standard. I'd think that one of these should show up, nicely equipped, in the $500-$700 range. Old black Nikon S models are surprisingly easy to use if equipped with floating stages and a working fine focus gear. Older American Optical systems can also be very good and very affordable - we've found several around $200 that are entirely suitable for kids and pond critters. Older Olympus "short barrel" phase scopes are another good and often affordable choice.

There are also excellent inverted scopes with phase contrast (Leitz, Nikon, Olympus, Hund, etc.).

I've had Leica DM, Nikon Eclipse, and Olympus BX phase, but they're not all that much better optically* and no better mechanically than their finite counterparts. And at that price range, as suggested above, DIC is the superior contrast enhancement method from a purely visual standpoint. Some researchers, however, may want something like phase contrast and fluorescence to better identify what's going on inside cells.

*Nikon claims its "apodized" phase contrast (a different sort of ring in the objective) has less of a halo than conventional phase contrast. Not a huge difference to my eyes in the one example I have. Plan Phase Fluorites are, however, more commonly seen on newer research grade scopes.

dtsh
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#8 Post by dtsh » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:11 pm

I have a Leica Microstar IV (Cambridge, Reichert, same thing) phase system and it's nice. About the only complaint I have is that the trinocular setup is a pain and that most of the more unusual options are scarce as hen's teeth with assosciated prices.

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Dmi3n
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#9 Post by Dmi3n » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:28 pm

I have a Zeiss Jena Nf with Phv variable (two rings) phase contrast system for pancratic condenser and plan achromatic objectives and I really love it. I will post some photos when I'll have more time. Unfortunately CZJ microscopes and accessories are rather rare outside of Germany and former Soviet Union as far as I know.
Gear list:
CZJ NfPk and Polmi A w/ 45mm apo objectives, Phv, Epi Pol, trinocular
Gamma Hungary 3D-condenser
LOMO ОИ-28 Fluorescence Attachment
Set of Leitz Photar macro lens
Nikon D500 DSLR
LOMO МС-2 microtome

apochronaut
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#10 Post by apochronaut » Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:35 pm

The dreaded halo, commonly referred to as a defect of phase systems is reduced to a mere border in some of the better systems. In fact it frames the membranes or walls of cells and other interface areas nicely, showing off features rather than obscuring them, particularly with planfluor or planapo objectives where the chroma are reduced to virtually nothing. I suspect that apodization was employed in more than a few highly engineered phase objectives as a matter of course, without blowing a horn about it. They just ended up being better phase objectives. Most less expensive phase systems seem to be high on the halo effect as well as featuring more than enough of the other notable phase contrast bugbear: shading off.
One more reason to look for systems from companies that didn't just copy a concept but actually researched their way to it. AO, B&L, Leica, Leitz, Nikon, Olympus, PZO, Reichert, Zeiss and CZJ.
I would be cautious with most other systems.

deBult
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#11 Post by deBult » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:19 pm

Olympus BH2 usere here, pond dipper, the phase objectives help to visualize the outer “shell” of algae, the flagella of flagellates, the cilia of protozoa etc. (hope my wording is correct here, not a native speaker).

Agree with Apochronaut above, I do prefer the PLL (positive low low) and the NH (negative high) phase objectives above the standard PL (positive low). I’m not aware of the existence of Olympus Fluor of Apo phase objectives though (correction, discovered there are some, see post below) The SPlan version of the phase objectives (still achromat, only PL and NH versions available) has a slight advantage in the “halo” effect though, compared to the standard version.


Please refer to the BH2 product documentation on the Alan Wood website, for pictures of the different phase effects.

@Apo: please elaborate on the “shading off” effect: what does it look like?
Last edited by deBult on Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deBult
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#12 Post by deBult » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:30 pm

To answer my own question: Shade off effect in phase contrast is demonstrated on the Nikon website

https://www.microscopyu.com/tutorials/s ... -artifacts

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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#13 Post by deBult » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:57 pm

The discussion triggered a bit of research.

Discovered there are Olympus Apo Phase objectives in existance:
DApo PL 40 and 100*
DPlan Apo PL UV PL series 10/20/40/100*
SPlan Apo PL 60 and 100*

Hmm going to cost me some in hunting them down, intrigued to see the improvement Apochonaut is referring to in previous posts.

Zwei²Lines
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#14 Post by Zwei²Lines » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:11 pm

deBult wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:30 pm
To answer my own question: Shade off effect in phase contrast is demonstrated on the Nikon website

https://www.microscopyu.com/tutorials/s ... -artifacts
Thanks for this, I was totally unaware of this artefact.
apochronaut wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:54 pm
Many of the manufacturers of phase systems produce(d) simple phase systems, having defaulted to a single type of phase system. Dark phase medium contrast. That's what you get when the description is phase contrast unless otherwise qualified.
Other makers have produced and still do produce other types of phase as well, usable with the same condenser. Anoptral, Bright, Positive, Negative , B-Minus L and Apodized are some of the other terms used and some of them are available in various contrast ranges, low, medium and high.
These alternative forms of phase have the capacity to reveal more or different information and are selected by a change in the objective only, greatly expanding the capability of phase.
If I were searching out a phase contrast microscope I would be looking for a system that has at least some of those other phase options available .
Adfitionally, many systems are based only on achromat or plan achromat colour correction. Again , many of the better manufacturers offer fluorite or apochromat objectives for phase. There is a considerable difference in the imaging of achromat phase compared to apochromat.
You seem very insightful about this subject. How do these phase modes differ with respect to dark phase medium contrast?
In any case, thank you for the detailed post
deBult wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:19 pm
Olympus BH2 usere here, pond dipper, the phase objectives help to visualize the outer “shell” of algae, the flagella of flagellates, the cilia of protozoa etc. (hope my wording is correct here, not a native speaker).

Agree with Apochronaut above, I do prefer the PLL (positive low low) and the NH (negative high) phase objectives above the standard PL (positive low). I’m not aware of the existence of Olympus Fluor of Apo phase objectives though (correction, discovered there are some, see post below) The SPlan version of the phase objectives (still achromat, only PL and NH versions available) has a slight advantage in the “halo” effect though, compared to the standard version.


Please refer to the BH2 product documentation on the Alan Wood website, for pictures of the different phase effects.

@Apo: please elaborate on the “shading off” effect: what does it look like?
Thank you, would you personally recommend the BH2--It seems popular.

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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#15 Post by apochronaut » Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:28 am

deBult wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:19 pm
Olympus BH2 usere here, pond dipper, the phase objectives help to visualize the outer “shell” of algae, the flagella of flagellates, the cilia of protozoa etc. (hope my wording is correct here, not a native speaker).

Agree with Apochronaut above, I do prefer the PLL (positive low low) and the NH (negative high) phase objectives above the standard PL (positive low). I’m not aware of the existence of Olympus Fluor of Apo phase objectives though (correction, discovered there are some, see post below) The SPlan version of the phase objectives (still achromat, only PL and NH versions available) has a slight advantage in the “halo” effect though, compared to the standard version.


Please refer to the BH2 product documentation on the Alan Wood website, for pictures of the different phase effects.

@Apo: please elaborate on the “shading off” effect: what does it look like?
Apologies. I just checked in. I see you found out some info., though.

apochronaut
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#16 Post by apochronaut » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:14 am

Zwei²Lines wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:11 pm


You seem very insightful about this subject. How do these phase modes differ with respect to dark phase medium contrast?
In any case, thank you for the detailed post.
Dark phase contrast is also known by the term Positive phase contrast. It produces an image where thicker but transparent objects show very dark against a grey background. Bacterial cells or a nucleus for instance appear almost black. The relationship between the objects and the background are determined by the contrast level of the objective ; low, medium, high or in some cases low low etc. Anyone who made a phase system, made a version of dark or positive. Some companies made a broad range of contrast levels but many, such as Bausch & Lomb just made one.

Bright phase contrast is also known as Negative phase contrast. In this case thick but transparent objects appear white on a dark background. The effect is somewhat like DF. AO, Olympus, Nikon and Zeiss West(?), maybe Meiji have made Bright phase. Not sure about Jena. There is a planachro Negative series used by Motic that should work on most Olympus 180mm infinity formatted microscopes. They are not too expensive. The objectives are around under different brands. Boli optics are one.

Anoptral phase was made by Meopta, PZO, Reichert, Zeiss West. Possibly others but I don't know of them. Anoptral yields a rusty brown background, with no halo. There is also very high relief, so more 3D than other phase types but the contrast between the background and the object is lower. I know of no variations in degrees of contrast with Anoptral.

B- Minus was unique to AO. It existed in low and medium contrast levels, although high might have bern made briefly. B-Minus refers to Bright or Negative phase minus some. I would have to look it up to see how much but there is no phase ring discernable to the eye in the objective. The effect is of dark objects on a whitish background, kind of like a super contrasty BF.

I think I have an old post with some comparative images of Dark L, Bright L, and B-Minus L. Achromat stuff. The lower the contrast level, the less dramatic the difference is between phase types. I will find it and add as an edit.

viewtopic.php?t=4289
Last edited by apochronaut on Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#17 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:20 am

Also Tiyoda made bright phase, and you can find some of their pretty little short barrel versions sometimes.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

apochronaut
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#18 Post by apochronaut » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:22 am

BramHuntingNematodes wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:20 am
Also Tiyoda made bright phase, and you can find some of their pretty little short barrel versions sometimes.
Good catch. I always forget about Tiyoda. I think possibly Unitron too.

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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#19 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:32 am

Yeah I really like the build quality of the Tiyoda stuff but I never found enough of them-- settled for an old Nippon Kogaku for bright phase. Nikon had some short barrel apo phase objectives in bright medium but they are scarce also. The old Kogaku phase condenser is fun as there are no centering screws you just shove the diaphragms around in the damping grease. Works pretty well really.

The 10x dynoptic phase ring turns out doesn't fit the 10x planachromat phase so good. The other three do. Will have to find a work-around eventually or somehow encounter the flat field condenser. Never seen one of those out in the wild! All the flat field scopes are outfitted pretty plainly for routine lab work looks like.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

deBult
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#20 Post by deBult » Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:24 am

Zwei²Lines wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:11 pm
Thank you, would you personally recommend the BH2--It seems popular.
Avid BH2 fan myself, 2 phase equipped CH2 and 2 phase equipped BH2 scopes in use.

Olympus BH2 series are popular as good quality/price performance, a lot of spare parts and scopes are available in the 2nd hand market in the US (a bit less in continental Europe).
Plus the excellent maintenance instructions and video's available by fellow forum member Carl Hunsiger;

http://alanwood.net/olympus/microscopes.html

Noot: you have a Personal Message on Carl’s contact details

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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#21 Post by PeteM » Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:00 am

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:22 am
. . . I think possibly Unitron too.
Good recall. The Unitron (US distributor and of telescopes as well) microscopes were made by Union Optical of Japan. We have one of their scopes with both bright medium and dark medium phase objectives.

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75RR
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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#22 Post by 75RR » Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:29 am

.
Any of the finite Zeiss Standards but particularly the 18 and the WL (both come with removable nosepieces) are well worth having.

One should not have a Phase Contrast System however without trying COL

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artdec02/pjcol.html

https://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ar ... denser.pdf
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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Re: Looking for second hand phase contrast systems-

#23 Post by apochronaut » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:40 pm

75RR wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:29 am
.
Any of the finite Zeiss Standards but particularly the 18 and the WL (both come with removable nosepieces) are well worth having.

One should not have a Phase Contrast System however without trying COL

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artdec02/pjcol.html

https://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ar ... denser.pdf
An important point. COL sort of comes along with phase, as well in many systems does low magnification DF( up to 200X), which due to the precise focus of the phase diaphragm/condenser combination and centering capability, produces as good DF as is possible at low magnifications, outside of using a wide field oil toric type.
I have come across two possibly uncatalogued objectives that seem to exist as oblique phase objectives : a 40X .70 Reichert Phase Planfluor infinity and a 43X .66 AO Dark High phase achromat that don't really perform well as phase objectives but when used in oblique, present a sort of DF phase with unusual relief. They both require the condenser diaphragm to be decentered and closed off some to get an almost black background with a contrasty phase image over it.
This really just points to the fact of how versatile , diverse and therfore useful phase contrast can be.

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