These 'New Members'

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LouiseScot
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These 'New Members'

#1 Post by LouiseScot » Fri May 27, 2022 11:36 am

Dear moderators

We really need to vet all these 'new members' posting spam and possibly dangerous links!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

dtsh
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Re: These 'New Members'

#2 Post by dtsh » Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm

It's hard to balance vetting new members and fighting spam, if you make it harder for the spambots to get in, you also make it harder for new members to sign up.
The issue isn't helped by the fact the spam gangs often use compromised machines to run the programs which trawl the internet for forums and the software to create the bogus accounts and posts. I think the average person would be absolutely amazed at the sheer number of compromised hosts on the internet, its so common I'd be willing to be some of the members here are using compromised computers unkowingly. There are often patterns that can be found to identify spam, but they change over time as the spammers update their toolset and there's a cost in time for someone to maintain all of the anti-spam efforts on the site.
Methods of combatting the spam can take up time, money, computer power, etc which all drive the cost of maintaining the site ever upwards until it stops being worth the effort. If you rely on moderators to manually remove it, you need more moderators which often involves adding privileges that will eventually get abused. If you put too many obstacles in the way of creating new accounts or new posts you frustrate new users and they go elsewhere.
I don't mean to make it sound bleak, but it's hard work fighting spam without making it harder on legitimate users.

LouiseScot
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Re: These 'New Members'

#3 Post by LouiseScot » Fri May 27, 2022 4:49 pm

dtsh wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm
It's hard to balance vetting new members and fighting spam, if you make it harder for the spambots to get in, you also make it harder for new members to sign up.
The issue isn't helped by the fact the spam gangs often use compromised machines to run the programs which trawl the internet for forums and the software to create the bogus accounts and posts. I think the average person would be absolutely amazed at the sheer number of compromised hosts on the internet, its so common I'd be willing to be some of the members here are using compromised computers unkowingly. There are often patterns that can be found to identify spam, but they change over time as the spammers update their toolset and there's a cost in time for someone to maintain all of the anti-spam efforts on the site.
Methods of combatting the spam can take up time, money, computer power, etc which all drive the cost of maintaining the site ever upwards until it stops being worth the effort. If you rely on moderators to manually remove it, you need more moderators which often involves adding privileges that will eventually get abused. If you put too many obstacles in the way of creating new accounts or new posts you frustrate new users and they go elsewhere.
I don't mean to make it sound bleak, but it's hard work fighting spam without making it harder on legitimate users.
I see what you mean but we don't get that many new members per week, do we? Can there not just be some hurdle for someone to become a member such as having to say why you want to join, or something similar? I've also noticed the forum has become a lot quieter than it was a few months ago...

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

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Wes
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Re: These 'New Members'

#4 Post by Wes » Fri May 27, 2022 6:58 pm

This is an old issues, yes. I raised it some years ago

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8276

What I suggest is to have a question at the time one registers. Something simple yet relevant to the hobby

for example

"Which part of the microscope do you look through with your eye?"

A)eyepiece
B)potato
C)1776
D)none of the above
Zeiss Photomicroscope III BF/DF/Pol/Ph/DIC/FL/Jamin-Lebedeff
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LouiseScot
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Re: These 'New Members'

#5 Post by LouiseScot » Fri May 27, 2022 7:01 pm

Plus maybe 'why do you want to join this forum?'
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

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Wes
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Re: These 'New Members'

#6 Post by Wes » Fri May 27, 2022 7:27 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:01 pm
Plus maybe 'why do you want to join this forum?'
yeah but that can't be easily automated. You want a filter that doesn't require the conscious attention of the admin.
Zeiss Photomicroscope III BF/DF/Pol/Ph/DIC/FL/Jamin-Lebedeff
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dtsh
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Re: These 'New Members'

#7 Post by dtsh » Fri May 27, 2022 7:28 pm

Wes wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 6:58 pm
This is an old issues, yes. I raised it some years ago

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8276

What I suggest is to have a question at the time one registers. Something simple yet relevant to the hobby

for example

"Which part of the microscope do you look through with your eye?"

A)eyepiece
B)potato
C)1776
D)none of the above
Such a question already exists and obviously imposes little impediment.

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Wes
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Re: These 'New Members'

#8 Post by Wes » Fri May 27, 2022 7:35 pm

dtsh wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:28 pm
Wes wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 6:58 pm
This is an old issues, yes. I raised it some years ago

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8276

What I suggest is to have a question at the time one registers. Something simple yet relevant to the hobby

for example

"Which part of the microscope do you look through with your eye?"

A)eyepiece
B)potato
C)1776
D)none of the above
Such a question already exists and obviously imposes little impediment.
I had no idea but I have seen it on other forums. Maybe the question is too easy?

How about "calculate the resolution of a microscope with a 63/1,4 objective coupled to a 0.9 condenser at 550 nm"?
Zeiss Photomicroscope III BF/DF/Pol/Ph/DIC/FL/Jamin-Lebedeff
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dtsh
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Re: These 'New Members'

#9 Post by dtsh » Fri May 27, 2022 7:58 pm

Wes wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:35 pm
I had no idea but I have seen it on other forums. Maybe the question is too easy?
The problem is that the tech is getting better; it's pretty trivial these days to programatically parse a simple question and get the answer. At the point you start tripping up the program, humans tend to be failing as well. There are so many search engines and AI backends one can query to get reasonable utility quickly, which I am sure the spammers are utilizing.

Take for example the origins of email spam. Early on it was jerks, manually sending emails, but that quickly became automated. At first you could just filter the jerks by network and most of the problem went away...for a while. Eventually, they started using compromised computers to send email for them, which worked for a while until dynamic block lists were created and programs to run on the server were deveoped to evauluate emails and look for signs that statisically indicated they were spam, which worked for a while....

Even if you fix the technologic challenge, it still has to be implemented. Few forum owners are fluent in the programming language their forum runs, if they know any programming at all, so they tend to wait for that to be implemented by whomever wrote the forum software. It's all a matter of the time and effort needed to combat it and trying to keep that effort below the threshold where the host decides it's no longer worth their effort.
Wes wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:35 pm
How about "calculate the resolution of a microscope with a 63/1,4 objective coupled to a 0.9 condenser at 550 nm"?
A bot might be able to answer that, but I'm pretty sure it'd keep out most of the new users. It certainly would have me.

Hobbyst46
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Re: These 'New Members'

#10 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat May 28, 2022 2:44 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:49 pm
dtsh wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 4:43 pm
It's hard to balance vetting new members and fighting spam, if you make it harder for the spambots to get in, you also make it harder for new members to sign up.
The issue isn't helped by the fact the spam gangs often use compromised machines to run the programs which trawl the internet for forums and the software to create the bogus accounts and posts. I think the average person would be absolutely amazed at the sheer number of compromised hosts on the internet, its so common I'd be willing to be some of the members here are using compromised computers unkowingly. There are often patterns that can be found to identify spam, but they change over time as the spammers update their toolset and there's a cost in time for someone to maintain all of the anti-spam efforts on the site.
Methods of combatting the spam can take up time, money, computer power, etc which all drive the cost of maintaining the site ever upwards until it stops being worth the effort. If you rely on moderators to manually remove it, you need more moderators which often involves adding privileges that will eventually get abused. If you put too many obstacles in the way of creating new accounts or new posts you frustrate new users and they go elsewhere.
I don't mean to make it sound bleak, but it's hard work fighting spam without making it harder on legitimate users.
I see what you mean but we don't get that many new members per week, do we? Can there not just be some hurdle for someone to become a member such as having to say why you want to join, or something similar? I've also noticed the forum has become a lot quieter than it was a few months ago...

Louise
+1

Tom Jones
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Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: These 'New Members'

#11 Post by Tom Jones » Sat May 28, 2022 4:02 pm

Wes wrote:
How about "calculate the resolution of a microscope with a 63/1,4 objective coupled to a 0.9 condenser at 550 nm"?
I'd venture a guess that most amateurs wouldn't care what the resolution is numerically. Most professional microscope users wouldn't either. I know I've never bothered to calculate it for any of my objectives. If it was a required question, I *might* look it up to comply, but I'd be just as likely to blow it off and not bother to join. I doubt that's the intent.

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Wes
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Re: These 'New Members'

#12 Post by Wes » Sat May 28, 2022 6:40 pm

Ok so what solution do you offer?
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Re: These 'New Members'

#13 Post by Tom Jones » Sat May 28, 2022 11:31 pm

It's not that these posts aren't annoying. They certainly are. But requiring an answer to a rather esoteric question doesn't seem like a productive way to screen potential members for bots.

They're usually pretty obvious, and I don't find them annoying enough to do anything keep new folks away.

This may be a bit self-serving, but I have a website, https://www.exploremicroscopy.com, where many of the Microbehunter videos and forums are listed under "Web Resources", along with a lot of other material. The site is an addition to my outreach activities where some 67,000+ kids have had a chance to look through nice microscopes (BH-2s) at interesting specimens since 2010. My primary outreach venue went completely online in the summer of 2020 due to Covid-19. Last year it was a combo - partially online and partially in person. 22,000 kids were involved last year. This October it will be the same. If any of the K-12 kids, parents or teachers follow the links to these forums, I'd rather not have them scared off by a question most of them won't even understand and isn't even relevant to most of us.

I doubt Oliver wants to scare off potential new members either.

Tom

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Wes
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Re: These 'New Members'

#14 Post by Wes » Mon May 30, 2022 8:39 am

dtsh wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:58 pm
Wes wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:35 pm
I had no idea but I have seen it on other forums. Maybe the question is too easy?
The problem is that the tech is getting better; it's pretty trivial these days to programatically parse a simple question and get the answer. At the point you start tripping up the program, humans tend to be failing as well. There are so many search engines and AI backends one can query to get reasonable utility quickly, which I am sure the spammers are utilizing.

Take for example the origins of email spam. Early on it was jerks, manually sending emails, but that quickly became automated. At first you could just filter the jerks by network and most of the problem went away...for a while. Eventually, they started using compromised computers to send email for them, which worked for a while until dynamic block lists were created and programs to run on the server were deveoped to evauluate emails and look for signs that statisically indicated they were spam, which worked for a while....

Even if you fix the technologic challenge, it still has to be implemented. Few forum owners are fluent in the programming language their forum runs, if they know any programming at all, so they tend to wait for that to be implemented by whomever wrote the forum software. It's all a matter of the time and effort needed to combat it and trying to keep that effort below the threshold where the host decides it's no longer worth their effort.
Wes wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:35 pm
How about "calculate the resolution of a microscope with a 63/1,4 objective coupled to a 0.9 condenser at 550 nm"?
A bot might be able to answer that, but I'm pretty sure it'd keep out most of the new users. It certainly would have me.
It was more of joke suggestion but I am surprised that a bot would be able to comprehend and answer the question (maybe have a question posed in an image with some skewing like those pesky captchas).
Tom Jones wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:31 pm
It's not that these posts aren't annoying. They certainly are. But requiring an answer to a rather esoteric question doesn't seem like a productive way to screen potential members for bots.

They're usually pretty obvious, and I don't find them annoying enough to do anything keep new folks away.

This may be a bit self-serving, but I have a website, https://www.exploremicroscopy.com, where many of the Microbehunter videos and forums are listed under "Web Resources", along with a lot of other material. The site is an addition to my outreach activities where some 67,000+ kids have had a chance to look through nice microscopes (BH-2s) at interesting specimens since 2010. My primary outreach venue went completely online in the summer of 2020 due to Covid-19. Last year it was a combo - partially online and partially in person. 22,000 kids were involved last year. This October it will be the same. If any of the K-12 kids, parents or teachers follow the links to these forums, I'd rather not have them scared off by a question most of them won't even understand and isn't even relevant to most of us.

I doubt Oliver wants to scare off potential new members either.

Tom
That's a cool site Tom.
Zeiss Photomicroscope III BF/DF/Pol/Ph/DIC/FL/Jamin-Lebedeff
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Tom Jones
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Re: These 'New Members'

#15 Post by Tom Jones » Mon May 30, 2022 2:56 pm

Thanks Wes!

wuicylucy
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Re: These 'New Members'

#16 Post by wuicylucy » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:02 am

Thank you for your article, it has brought a lot of new knowledge to me, articles like this are very helpful to many people, looking forward to reading more articles like this.
tiny fishing nerdle

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imkap
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Re: These 'New Members'

#17 Post by imkap » Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:26 pm

...and the bot bumps the topic...

SWmicro
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Re: These 'New Members'

#18 Post by SWmicro » Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:50 pm

Yes, I had to laugh at that bot as well, perhaps the bots are learning a sense of humour ? :)

Not all bad, sometimes they raise interesting stuff from long ago !

Brutha
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Re: These 'New Members'

#19 Post by Brutha » Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:28 pm

It makes you wonder if at some point the bots will get so good they actually start providing useful contributions!

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imkap
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Re: These 'New Members'

#20 Post by imkap » Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:17 pm

Brutha wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:28 pm
It makes you wonder if at some point the bots will get so good they actually start providing useful contributions!
Maybe they are already doing that... :shock:

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Wes
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Re: These 'New Members'

#21 Post by Wes » Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:10 am

imkap wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:17 pm
Brutha wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:28 pm
It makes you wonder if at some point the bots will get so good they actually start providing useful contributions!
Maybe they are already doing that... :shock:
Have you seen what some of the AI is capable of today? Sometimes I legitimately wonder what % of online interactions are with real people.
Zeiss Photomicroscope III BF/DF/Pol/Ph/DIC/FL/Jamin-Lebedeff
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