New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

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Giovan95
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New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#1 Post by Giovan95 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:21 pm

Hi guys I’m giovanni from Italy. I’m in a crazy mind status about buying my new microscope. I’m a med student but I wouldn’t use the newer microscope for my career as much. It will be used much more for hobby/ histology.
I have 4000€ as a budget. I’m very tempted to buy motic BA410Elite trinocular with a moticam s6. On the other hand I get so sad when I read that motic is a Chinese brand that money spent aren’t worth for it.
I would love to buy axiolab a1 from zeiss, but I wouldn’t be trinocular, and of course it would have all the basic components dish as a basic condenser and so on... I would spend almost 4000€ for a basic binocular axiolab a1 or a full moticBa410E with camera.
What DO I DO? Please help me understand in which direction I go.
Ps: I could probably raise my budget to almost 5500€. Thank you everyone, please forgive my English.

PeteM
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#2 Post by PeteM » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:47 pm

Your budget would buy you a high quality research microscope (used), perhaps even with DIC and top notch objectives in the US. I'd be inclined to see what's available used in your area.

As a comparison example, I recently had a Motic BA410 with trinocular head and fluor objectives in new condition; that I sold for under 1000 Euro equivalent. Fitting a better quality camera to any of the well-established brands (Olympus BX, Nikon Eclipse or N series, Leica DM, or Zeiss Axio) should be relatively straightforward.

Giovan95
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#3 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:27 am

In my area there are 0 used microscopes available at the moment. Can you believe it? :| It’s uncommon here to sell used microscope and I would have to import it from UK but at that point I would have to pay duties. I found a axiolab a1 from Romania which is sold for a pretty good price. The problem is: do I trust this seller? What happens if I get the scope and then it has some weird problem?
The seller said that the scope is perfectly okay almost as brand new. It wouldn’t have the trinocular head tho

Giovan95
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#4 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:45 am

Also let me tell you this: I spoke to a company that sells both motic and zeiss and the specialist agent said that nowadays differences between high end motic and basic zeiss are no longer existing. He said that low end zeiss are made the same way and the same country where motic is made and with same materials. Optically spiking he says that there is no difference in between a BA410E and a primo star zeiss or even axiolabA1.
He said that the difference is noticeable only with a good grade Olympus or 10k zeiss. Does anyone has ever experimented both BA410E and primo star or axiolab and can tell if there is a difference ?
I’m investing more then 4K€ and to me it’s not worth the sentence “ choose for what you need”. I mean, I’m investing a lot for me ( it’s all from hard working as a waiter ) and I’d like to buy something very good ( even a good used). Thanks guys

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#5 Post by viktor j nilsson » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:51 am

So where are you located?
Edit: Sorry, I now saw you said Italy.
But would you really need to pay duties from the UK? That is odd, the UK is still in the EU, from a tax+duties standpoint.
Germany has a pretty large second hand microscope market. Lots of good Zeiss and Leitz options there. Good deals show up in many other places in the EU from time to time. For the price you are willing to pay, you should be able to find a really really nice microscope with some patience. In my experience, you get a lot of bang for the buck when you are looking for "premium" complete, used microscopes. Most of the people willing to shell out 4000€ for a microscope have already bought their dream microscope. They might pay good money for a certain accessory that they are missing, but they would rarely jump on a whole package for 4000€.
Last edited by viktor j nilsson on Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Giovan95
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#6 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:57 am

I’m in Italy, Bologna

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75RR
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#7 Post by 75RR » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:12 am

As far as the UK is concerned it is my understanding that you have until the end of December.

Ebay.de (Germany) also has a lot of microscopes for sale.

Note that if you buy a used finite microscope from for example Zeiss, you will be buying something that probably cost the equivalent

of €10000+ in its day and yet if in good condition would be 100% functional.

You have a large budget but not an institutional one - think finite!
Last edited by 75RR on Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giovan95
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#8 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:14 am

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:51 am
So where are you located?
Edit: Sorry, I now saw you said Italy.
But would you really need to pay duties from the UK? That is odd, the UK is still in the EU, from a tax+duties standpoint.
Germany has a pretty large second hand microscope market. Lots of good Zeiss and Leitz options there. Good deals show up in many other places in the EU from time to time. For the price you are willing to pay, you should be able to find a really really nice microscope with some patience. In my experience, you get a lot of bang for the buck when you are looking for "premium" complete, used microscopes. Most of the people willing to shell out 4000€ for a microscope have already bought their dream microscope. They might pay good money for a certain accessory that they are missing, but they would rarely jump on a whole package for 4000€.
Thanks for your help. I’m thinking it’s better to have patient and buy a used one. What do I need to be aware of when buying a used one? How do I trust that optics are good, not damage? What should I ask to the seller? Many thanks for your help, I appreciate it

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#9 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:15 am

75RR wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:12 am
As far as the UK is concerned it is my understanding that you have until the end of December.

Ebay.de (Germany) also has a lot of microscopes for sale.

Note that if you buy a used finite microscope from for example Zeiss, you will be buying something that probably cost the equivalent

of €10000+ in its day and yet if in good condition would be 100% functional.

You have a large budget but not an institutional one - think finite!
Thank you! I’ll be aware of this :D

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#10 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:24 am

A potentially good source for quality research grade used microscopes is University surplus. Not what they intend to dump in the trash but what they want to get replace, to upgrade a laboratory. Perhaps in the school of medicine or life sciences. Even old confocal microscopes are being removed from service from time to time, because their software and computer hardware become outdated and too costly to upgrade. Their optics and mechanics might still be perfect. Although it would be infinity corrected optics, there might be enough objectives for decent hobby work.

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#11 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:24 am
A potentially good source for quality research grade used microscopes is University surplus. Not what they intend to dump in the trash but what they want to get replace, to upgrade a laboratory. Perhaps in the school of medicine or life sciences. Even old confocal microscopes are being removed from service from time to time, because their software and computer hardware become outdated and too costly to upgrade. Their optics and mechanics might still be perfect. Although it would be infinity corrected optics, there might be enough objectives for decent hobby work.
Thank you! I found a zeiss axiolab A1 for a good price. The microscope is in a very very good state. It has 5 objectives ( 4 ph contrast). I might think of buying this and then change something as I need. What do you think?
Thank you I appreciate

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#12 Post by Wes » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:52 pm

Giovan95 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 pm
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:24 am
A potentially good source for quality research grade used microscopes is University surplus. Not what they intend to dump in the trash but what they want to get replace, to upgrade a laboratory. Perhaps in the school of medicine or life sciences. Even old confocal microscopes are being removed from service from time to time, because their software and computer hardware become outdated and too costly to upgrade. Their optics and mechanics might still be perfect. Although it would be infinity corrected optics, there might be enough objectives for decent hobby work.
Thank you! I found a zeiss axiolab A1 for a good price. The microscope is in a very very good state. It has 5 objectives ( 4 ph contrast). I might think of buying this and then change something as I need. What do you think?
Thank you I appreciate
What are the objectives? For the money you offer I won't go lower than at least plan-neofluars and DIC with the option for fluorescence.
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Giovan95
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#13 Post by Giovan95 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:01 pm

Wes wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:52 pm
Giovan95 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 pm
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:24 am
A potentially good source for quality research grade used microscopes is University surplus. Not what they intend to dump in the trash but what they want to get replace, to upgrade a laboratory. Perhaps in the school of medicine or life sciences. Even old confocal microscopes are being removed from service from time to time, because their software and computer hardware become outdated and too costly to upgrade. Their optics and mechanics might still be perfect. Although it would be infinity corrected optics, there might be enough objectives for decent hobby work.
Thank you! I found a zeiss axiolab A1 for a good price. The microscope is in a very very good state. It has 5 objectives ( 4 ph contrast). I might think of buying this and then change something as I need. What do you think?
Thank you I appreciate
What are the objectives? For the money you offer I won't go lower than at least plan-neofluars and DIC with the option for fluorescence.
You are really helping me. I’m offering 2700 USD, approximately 2260€. It’s a nice axiolab A1 with 1planacromat and 3 phase contrast plan acro , all from zeiss. Also with a ph contrast condenser. Is it worth it? And Especially, will I be able to costomize it as I mess with other objectives ? I mean is it possible for this model to change some of its part ?

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#14 Post by 75RR » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:30 pm

Giovan95 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:01 pm
I’m offering 2700 USD, approximately 2260€.
Dollars? Where is it?
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#15 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:32 pm

Most importantly, it should be trinocular. Another forum member was looking for a trino head for an Axiolab and it was difficult to find and expensive.
The asking price of $2700 seems to me on the high side for a hobby microscope, whereas professionals tend to buy new anyway. 2nd hand Planapo or plan neofluar objectives will cost in the hundreds (each). Anyway, I would verify that the mechanics (focusing movement, stage, condenser rack, irises) are all in working conditions.

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#16 Post by viktor j nilsson » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:42 pm

Although I have no personal experience with the Axiolab A1, I would stay away from it. It looks competent enough and has the potential to be upgraded quite a bit, see system overview on: https://www.ctk-instruments.com/Zeiss_A ... A1-bio.pdf
It can do some form of DIC, for example.

However, it comes with pretty average plan achromat objectives. Upgrading those to plan fluors or plan apos will be very expensive. Phase contrast can be useful for many practical applications, but it's, in my opinion, not very appealing from a photographic perspective. So, I think you would pretty soon be looking to upgrade several things on this microscope. And your chances of finding these parts without paying a ton of money will be slim.

I still think you should be looking for a well-regarded finite scope with good potential for upgrades, excellent optics and good availability of parts, like a BH2, Optiphot, Zeiss Standard, etc. If you have the space for it, you can sometimes find really good deals on the really big research grade microscopes from Zeiss, olympus and Nikon. I would try to find a scope with as many 'premium' accessories as possible. It is often a lot cheaper to buy a complete scope with PlanApo objectives, for example, than to buy them one by one.

This recent discussion covered a lot of pros and cons of various options:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10760

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#17 Post by PeteM » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:52 am

The dealer you spoke to is correct that the low end Zeiss, Leica, etc. are now often made in China to now higher standard than, say, a Motic.

I'd suggest patience and finding a fine used microscope. I don't know the used pricing throughout Europe, but here in the US the equivalent of 2000 Euro would buy you a very fine finite instrument and your budget of double that should get the newer infinite versions with something like plan fluor objectives, a trinocular head, a top quality condenser, etc. Here in the US it might buy something like a Nikon Eclipse E600 with DIC, a trinocular head, and a mix of plan, plan fluor and plan apo objectives or the ICT (DIC) equivalent in Leica DM series.

A member here from the UK recently had an Olympus BX40 for sale at a reasonable price.

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#18 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:22 am

I sold a bx40 with plan objectives and a planSapo 20x for less than that. Only downside was it had a retroLED illuminator because the original electronics were dead. It even had a sextuple nosepiece, trinocular head set up for dslr and u-ant analyzer. Shop a hit more and you'll probably find something really nice within your budget rather thsn merely good.

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#19 Post by Wes » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:59 pm

Giovan95 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:01 pm
Wes wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:52 pm
Giovan95 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:58 pm


Thank you! I found a zeiss axiolab A1 for a good price. The microscope is in a very very good state. It has 5 objectives ( 4 ph contrast). I might think of buying this and then change something as I need. What do you think?
Thank you I appreciate
What are the objectives? For the money you offer I won't go lower than at least plan-neofluars and DIC with the option for fluorescence.
You are really helping me. I’m offering 2700 USD, approximately 2260€. It’s a nice axiolab A1 with 1planacromat and 3 phase contrast plan acro , all from zeiss. Also with a ph contrast condenser. Is it worth it? And Especially, will I be able to costomize it as I mess with other objectives ? I mean is it possible for this model to change some of its part ?
You don't have to listen to me of course but if I were you I'd buy a Zeiss Standard (someone please remind me which Standard version was the most interchangeable/modular) or even better a WL (I'd probably buy one regardless of my current ones). I also wouldn't mind going for just the body and slowly build it up with objectives and accessories (this way you can filter any crappy parts that come with a fully equipped scope). For 2260€ you could end up with a very nice DIC scope built like a tank but it won't happen in one go.

Did you make up your mind or are you still choosing?
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#20 Post by PeteM » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:19 pm

Could be the Zeiss Standard 18 you're thinking of Wes - with interchangeable turrets and a 100 watt lamp? Just as a price comparison, one of these days I'll be selling a Zeiss 18 with full DIC, 100 watt source, Plan NeoFluars, and a trinocular head for substantially less than 2200 Euro equivalent. There must surely be some source of good and affordable used microscopes in the Euro area?

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#21 Post by 75RR » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:38 pm

PeteM wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:19 pm
There must surely be some source of good and affordable used microscopes in the Euro area?
If you do find one please let all those of us in europe know about it ;)
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#22 Post by Wes » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:45 pm

PeteM wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:19 pm
Could be the Zeiss Standard 18 you're thinking of Wes - with interchangeable turrets and a 100 watt lamp? Just as a price comparison, one of these days I'll be selling a Zeiss 18 with full DIC, 100 watt source, Plan NeoFluars, and a trinocular head for substantially less than 2200 Euro equivalent. There must surely be some source of good and affordable used microscopes in the Euro area?
Yes I was thinking of the Standard 18. And your future offer sounds like a real bargain! Germany seems like a good place to find a used microscope, the vast majority where made there in the first place.
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#23 Post by deBult » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:30 am

A 2nd hand scope dealer in Germany with a good reputation : http://www.thilo-immel-optics.de/

Brunel in the UK has a good reputation as well: http://www.usedmicroscopes.co.uk/

In Holland: https://www.microscopen-specialist.nl/

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#24 Post by 75RR » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:04 am

.
Here are some links to used equipment provided by the Quekett Microscopical Club:

https://www.quekett.org/resources/used-microscopes
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#25 Post by Sir » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:48 am

I plan on getting a new microscope some time next month myself, and I too was looking at the Motic BA310E and 410E. I think both have been proven to be very capable microscopes. With the 410E having Fluar and App objectives as an option. If you filter the Motic Blog for this you can find a lot of images taken by it.

It's probably not the most cost effective option, but there are other benefits that I find personally useful as a hobbyist. Firstly, the pricing of Motic parts is very clear on their website. You know exactly what you're getting and for how much. No scouring of eBay listings. You will most likely have no dust with a new microscope, and it would be easily returnable if there were issues.

I haven't 100% decided whether to go with new or used yet, but I am leaning very much towards new. I think it really just depends on individual needs and budget.

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#26 Post by 75RR » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:25 am

Sir wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:48 am
I plan on getting a new microscope some time next month myself, and I too was looking at the Motic BA310E and 410E. I think both have been proven to be very capable microscopes. With the 410E having Fluar and App objectives as an option. If you filter the Motic Blog for this you can find a lot of images taken by it.

It's probably not the most cost effective option, but there are other benefits that I find personally useful as a hobbyist. Firstly, the pricing of Motic parts is very clear on their website. You know exactly what you're getting and for how much. No scouring of eBay listings. You will most likely have no dust with a new microscope, and it would be easily returnable if there were issues.

I haven't 100% decided whether to go with new or used yet, but I am leaning very much towards new. I think it really just depends on individual needs and budget.
If you do get one then don't forget to post photos of it in the My microscope section along with a list of the options you added and of course a rough idea of how much you actually spent on it.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#27 Post by Roldorf » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:59 am

Sir:- Remember, images are taken by camera's NOT microscopes.
Location: Northern Germany

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#28 Post by Challenger007 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:09 am

Sir wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:48 am
I plan on getting a new microscope some time next month myself, and I too was looking at the Motic BA310E and 410E. I think both have been proven to be very capable microscopes. With the 410E having Fluar and App objectives as an option. If you filter the Motic Blog for this you can find a lot of images taken by it.

It's probably not the most cost effective option, but there are other benefits that I find personally useful as a hobbyist. Firstly, the pricing of Motic parts is very clear on their website. You know exactly what you're getting and for how much. No scouring of eBay listings. You will most likely have no dust with a new microscope, and it would be easily returnable if there were issues.

I haven't 100% decided whether to go with new or used yet, but I am leaning very much towards new. I think it really just depends on individual needs and budget.
It seems to me that it is better to take a new one. A used one will initially cost less, but you do not know what defects may appear at the very first time. And repairs can be costly and will add up to more than buying a new microscope. I had a similar experience with the car, but this applies to all equipment.

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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#29 Post by Aurum » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:15 pm

-
Last edited by Aurum on Tue May 11, 2021 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New microscope, choosing drives me crazy

#30 Post by farnsy » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:18 am

Giovan95 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:45 am
Also let me tell you this: I spoke to a company that sells both motic and zeiss and the specialist agent said that nowadays differences between high end motic and basic zeiss are no longer existing. He said that low end zeiss are made the same way and the same country where motic is made and with same materials. Optically spiking he says that there is no difference in between a BA410E and a primo star zeiss or even axiolabA1.
He said that the difference is noticeable only with a good grade Olympus or 10k zeiss. Does anyone has ever experimented both BA410E and primo star or axiolab and can tell if there is a difference ?
I know this thread is a bit old but I thought I would mention that it makes perfect sense that Motic's higher-end optics would be similar or identical to those in the Zeiss Primo Star line, since the entire line is manufactured for Ziess by Motic at their Xiamen plant. It would be a little strange if the optics were significantly different in quality, actually.

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