wide view objective

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davehrs
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wide view objective

#1 Post by davehrs » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:41 am

hi all

i use a fairly simple 4 objective microscope and camera to take photos of oil samples that have been drawn through a 1.2 micron patch.
microscope photo
microscope photo
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it came with the usual 4x 10x 20 x and 100x lenses as well as the 10x in the viewer and camera. unfortunately - even the 4x is way to focussed for one image type i want - an overall patch view before i start to zoom in on particles themselves. i used to do this simply using my mobile, but this means i have to upload images into my reporting from 2 sources, which becomes very time consuming.

i dont use the 100x objective very often - only when i want to actually observe the oil itself - without a patch - so i decided to try and find an objective that would give me a wider field of view. Note - it does not have to show the full wide field at top resolution ( someone started telling me about software taking multiple images and stitching them together - i dont need that level of detail) so in my ignorance i bought a couple of lenses that i thought were 1x - so would give me 4 times the viewed area diameter but i admit ive wasted my money.

first i bought a 1 / 0.03 infinty / - couldnt get it to focus
then i bought a 1 / 0.03 160 / - - similar issue - wont focus but in a different way

1st question - can i get a 1x objective or am i chasing dreams

if not - is this fit for purpose ? its a 2x

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190814100004

my 4 x objective says 4 / 0.1 160/-

any help appreciated

thanks
Dave

Alexander
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: wide view objective

#2 Post by Alexander » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:54 am

An infinity objective will never work on a finite microscope.

What was the exact problem with the 4/0.03 160?

Possible focus issue is object distance. If the 1x is 35 mm for example it might not come into focus on a 45 mm stand.

1x objektives do have problems with even illumination on most compound microscopes. Some come with special condensers to cope with this. Taking the existing condenser down as much as possible might help.

A finite objective of an other brand than the eye-pieces may cause some loss of picture quality.

Pictures and description of your microscope don't give enough information for a more precise answer.

davehrs
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:20 am

Re: wide view objective

#3 Post by davehrs » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:29 am

thanks for the response Alexander - let me answer what i can

there is no detail on the microscope other than this number - its chinese made but bought by uk company who then sold it to a filter supplier - then i bought from them
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What was the exact problem with the 4/0.03 160? - nothing - this is my original 4x lens - it works great

If the 1x is 35 mm for example it might not come into focus on a 45 mm stand. - i didnt realise there were different ranges - so my appearance in beginners corner is justified :lol:

1x objektives do have problems with even illumination on most compound microscopes. - i use a led light from the side as well to see but i know what you mean

A finite objective of an other brand than the eye-pieces may cause some loss of picture quality. - for this image i dont need best quality - its mor t show overall patch discolouration that any significant detail

thanks again

Hobbyst46
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Re: wide view objective

#4 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:49 am

Can post close up photos of the various marks and prints on the 10X or 20X or 40X objective ?
To know the parfocality distance: on the 100X or 40X objective, measure the distance between the shoulder of the thread and the front lens. With calipers or even a ruler. If it is ~44 mm, the parfocality distance is 45mm. The same measurement on the 10X, 4X and 1X will yield much lower figures, so you need the specs from the manufacturer site. But, once the parfocal distance is known for a high-mag objective, it applies to low-mag objectives that are parfocal with it (within slight tweaking of the fine focus).
Zeiss Standard GFL+Canon EOS-M10, Olympus VMZ stereo

davehrs
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Re: wide view objective

#5 Post by davehrs » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:14 am

these are the 3 objectives that came with the microscope ( about 14 years ago)

4 x objective
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10 x objective
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20 x objective
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thanks

Alexander
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: wide view objective

#6 Post by Alexander » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:40 pm

The 20x appears to be 45 mm. Try to raise to specimen about 10 mm over the stage table and try again with the 1x 160 objective. If it comes into focus now it is 35 mm which was used by Olympus and other makers. The Chinese still produce that kind of objectives. A RMS distance adapter would help in this case.

davehrs
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:20 am

Re: wide view objective

#7 Post by davehrs » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:23 pm

grateful for the help everyone - thank you

using the 1/ 0.03 160 / - raising the patch made it worse - i had to go the other way so i dropped the stage fully, then dropped lens for the backlight and just put the test patch on the lens itself - so it was around 10 mm below the normal position - it was almost in focus but not quite i guess another mm or 2 would be enough - so thats suggesting to focus i need to drop the stage a lot more than is possible
Screen Shot 2022-01-19 at 13.14.14.jpg
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i took some photos of the other lenses in their focussed position

4x - approx 24mm from the bottom of the lens to the top of the patch
Screen Shot 2022-01-19 at 13.14.44.jpg
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10 x approx 8mm from the bottom of the lens to the top of the patch
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20x approx 8mm from the bottom of the lens to the top of the patch
Attachments
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apochronaut
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Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: wide view objective

#8 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:31 pm

Alexander wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:40 pm
The 20x appears to be 45 mm. Try to raise to specimen about 10 mm over the stage table and try again with the 1x 160 objective. If it comes into focus now it is 35 mm which was used by Olympus and other makers. The Chinese still produce that kind of objectives. A RMS distance adapter would help in this case.
How large is your patch size? Can you calculate how much of the patch the 4X is seeing? A 2X will see twice the diameter of a 4X, so in that way you can calculate which objective you need.

There should not be a problem getting almost any 160mm objective to focus. When you said that the 1X 160mm objective did not focus but in a different way did you mean that the center was focused and the periphery out of focus?
Your patch is flat and in order to focus center to periphery you need an objective that is specifically corrected to focus right across the field . Those are called plan objectives. Plan 1 objectives between 1 and 2.5X tend to be expensive because they are difficult to manufacture.

davehrs
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Re: wide view objective

#9 Post by davehrs » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm

thanks apochronaut - let me answer as best i can

How large is your patch size? total diameter 47mm - - this is what i was getting using my phone - you can use the grid as a size reference. i do 2 types of samples - this one uses a smaller feed tube which is why the particels are all focussed in a small area - but other samples use most of the patch as shown in the 2nd image
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to 4 x allows me to see approx 1 square
40 x patch.jpg
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and 100 x you can see by the line thickness how much we have zoomed in
100 x patch.jpg
100 x patch.jpg (78.39 KiB) Viewed 1361 times
as said at the beginning - my requirement is to be able to show a general patch condition using a wide view objective - a 2 x would let me see approx 2 x 2 squares and i hoped a 1 x would let me see 4 x 4 - - its still not a full patch but i could take a few photos to give a decent representation of the whole patch - without having to use 2 photographic devices. currently from my phone i have to upload images from the phone to the pc ( then delete them from the phone) before i an upload from there to my software - thats labour intensive and ive got someone coming to help process these samples - i want to simply the process as much a possible to reduce wasted time and remove the possibility of errors as he works

ive tried one of these - but it didnt have software to upload the image automatically
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i do take other photos of the full sample bottle sometimes on my phone - so i wondered about a camera on a flexible neck so i can manoeuvre it as i like - it wouldnt need to be a microscope as such but zooming in would be useful - i just have a software package i could take photos of the bottles and full patches and they are direct saved onto my PC hard drive - so i could take the patch with that - then 3 sets of microscope photos - and upload - its from 2 different files on the pc but im not faffing about manually uploading them, but i didnt have much luck with that either

that the 1X 160mm objective did not focus but in a different way - i mean i have a 1 / 0.03 infinity /- and a 1 / 0.03 160 / - - the infinity lens is impossible to get close to focussing the 160 / - is close if its 100 under the stage height

if im honest - i should have posted this request for help months ago - i clearly dont know what im doing... i dont even know what these numbers mean 1 / 0.03 160 / -

i have a limited budget - if the solution is to have anew microscope with more range on the stage etc - i would speak to the boss ( wife) and see if we can afford it

thanks for bearing with me

cheers

Scarodactyl
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Re: wide view objective

#10 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:11 pm

I don't think these cheap 1xes are supposed to be parfocal with other objectives, bazed on the length and working distance spec. It's hard to make a parfocal 1x, and it was a thing back in the day to have low magnification objectives with longer working distances, so my assumption is that that is the idea here.

dtsh
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Location: Wisconsin

Re: wide view objective

#11 Post by dtsh » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:24 pm

If you're needing low magnification and wide field of view, perhaps a stereo microscope will serve you better? They tend to do quite well in the relative ranges of 1x and 50x, though a great many perform well outside that range at both ends.
I'm not sure if it's a workable process for what you're doing, but I use my stereo scope to do some of my processing (insects) and will later take samples which will get examined under the compound scope.

davehrs
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Re: wide view objective

#12 Post by davehrs » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:41 pm

thanks again everyone

i said in the opening message
1st question - can i get a 1x objective or am i chasing dreams

i think the answer is yes - im chasing dreams - i could probably get what i want if i can afford big bucks - so im going a different route. i have 2 logitec webcams i used to use for livestreaming -i can use 1 for patches - 1 for bottles and they save to the required folder on my hard drive using logitec capture software so its a sensible short term solution.

my microscope is limited and when budget permits i will buy a better one - and for sure i will come back here for advice before i do anything like that - you have been amazing with the technical support - im very grateful

Cheers
Dave

PeteM
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Re: wide view objective

#13 Post by PeteM » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:51 pm

Scarodactyl likely has it right - cheap 1x objectives typically require greater focus length and aren't parfocal with the rest. They do exist, but need a lot of extra glass (and $$$) to remain parfocal -- and also typically end up with a much shorter working distance between the tip of the objective and your speciment. For example, a new Olympus 1x 45mm parfocal objective might cost several times the price of your microscope.

Another issue will be that your condenser most likely won't fully illuminate the field of view at 1x or 2x. At some loss of image quality, you may be able to drop the condenser down and get something usable for documentation purposes.

You might try for a cheap 2x and stitch a couple shots together if that will work for you?

Curious - can you let us know the application? Used motor oil analysis or ??

charlie g
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Re: wide view objective

#14 Post by charlie g » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:03 am

Hello Dave and group, I do have Nikon Plan 1X, and Nikon Plan 2X parfocal objectives , for my 160mm Nikon Labophot scope. They function well on the scope working with the higher magnification objectives.

I also have a few vintage Bausch&Lomb 'scanning low power' objectives..these had their use to cover an entire slide, an entire section of the studied object rapidly...but as they are circa 1950's or earlier...severe optical aberrations outside of the middle third of the field viewed. Not useful for image captures..but excellent to visually work with..and these are low cost. These scanner objectives do the job...image captures with the plan-objectives, once targets are located.

Before you (Dave) give up on your 1X/160mm objective...at least try it out...use a thick glass slab..or simple cut-out plastic condiment cup...to cradle your target filter patch say 10-15 mm above the microscope stage...see how well your 1X/160mm objective works for you.

With the glass slab, or plastic cradle seated on a large slide ...you still have use of your scopes mechanical stage.

Rather than labor-tedious interface a phone camera with your microscope image captures...have you tried : 6X, 8X occulars with your setup? Perhaps the camera-adapter you now use can be meshed with a 6X, or 8X occular?

Lastly...12/21 when my 'fit in your pocket Cannon point&shoot died'..on eBay for less than $45 USD, I purchased a great/used Nikon : Coolpix P310. This point&shoot at: 4''x2.5''x1'' has terrific macro with ambient light..of course it has flash setting. If uploading your macro data images is too much..well pardon my suggestion.

If as I suggested..use of memory sticks and card reader to upload your wide-field/macro data images is sensible for you, you can configure a digital camera you might have to image capture greater than 1X..or 1X magnification.

Please try out the 1X /160mm objective you now have....healthy new year , Dave and group. charlie guevara, finger lakes/US

PeteM
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Re: wide view objective

#15 Post by PeteM » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:48 am

Pretty sure the existing 1x finite objective davehrs has will want more, not less, focal distance. At least that's the case with the few I have.

The 1x ones that are 45mm parfocal are out there - but pricey. 2x are more affordable and easier to find in my experience.

MicroBob
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Re: wide view objective

#16 Post by MicroBob » Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:58 am

Hi Dave,
apart from the object field of the objective the camera and it's adaptation plays a bit role in how much area you can get in your photo. With an eyepiece of 18mm field of view a 4:1 objective should cover an object diameter of 18mm/4=4,5mm. Do you get this area in your photos?

Bob

apochronaut
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Re: wide view objective

#17 Post by apochronaut » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:23 pm

Most modern microscopes have a very short range of focus, designed for a condition where the objectives have acceptable parfocality. Many older microscopes had a longer focus travel, designed with the possibility in mind that a very long focal length objective might be used.

I have some of those older long focal length objectives which were designed to be focusable on certain older stands. Would a 2.6X objective work for you? It attains focus at 30mm from the object.

I also have a plan 1.2X. It also focuses at 30mm. I can offer you either of those, if either would work for you.

davehrs
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Re: wide view objective

#18 Post by davehrs » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:21 pm

sorry for the slow response folks - let me answers as best i can

PeteM - Curious - can you let us know the application? Used motor oil analysis or ?? i work in industrial hydraulics, filtration and overall oil management - so its usually vg 46 or 68 hyd oil or vg 220 / 320 gearbox oil but we do others as well. ive done some motor oil samples but they are always in really bad shape due the the poor performance of most car oil filters ( cellulose medial - 50% efficient - modern filter media - 99.99% efficient)

You might try for a cheap 2x and stitch a couple shots together if that will work for you? - thats extra work and i dont need high level of detail thanks - its more about patch discolouration and if there are any rocks on it ( 40 micron and above)

2x are more affordable and easier to find in my experience. is that what you mean Pete ? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190814100004



charlie g -Before you (Dave) give up on your 1X/160mm objective - i tried to lift it - it needed to be lowered so my stage would need to drop by about 13mm to focus - and even with that it would not show me the whole patch

have you tried : 6X, 8X occulars with your setup = = i wish i had a clue what you mean :lol:

I also have a few vintage Bausch&Lomb 'scanning low power' objectives - built back in the day when it was built to last - is they same idea available to buy nowadays ?


MicroBob - i measured what i see with the 4x and the 10x in the camera itself - i see 1 square which is under 4mm which isnt much - the patch itself is 14 squares wide - so im only seeing a fraction of the whole thing. i cant take photos without the 10 x in the camera so im a bit stuffed - if you see theimage above where it says "to 4 x allows me to see approx 1 square" you can see what i see and compare it to the full patch image below to see how limited my view field is


apochronaut - I also have a plan 1.2X. It also focuses at 30mm - that might give me about 3 x 3 squares but it depends how long the objective is - i have 50 mm from the top of the knurled ring on the objective to the top of the stage - my 4 x is 20 mm long with focal length of 24 - so it fits - can you send further details to dave@hydraulicrs.co.uk please

last night i set up the webcam - i got this ( this is a photo of my pc screen - not actual webcam image)
Screen Shot 2022-01-21 at 15.05.05.jpg
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- so its not bad - i just need to buy a fixed mount as this was a hand held attempt . Once i set that up properly i should be ok.

heres a video i did for my customers so they can see how my software works - https://hydraulicrs.co.uk/demo 3:57 in is where the samples starts so you can see what i do for a day job

thanks again everyone :)

PeteM
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Location: N. California

Re: wide view objective

#19 Post by PeteM » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:08 pm

davehrs wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:21 pm
. . . i work in industrial hydraulics, filtration and overall oil management - so its usually vg 46 or 68 hyd oil or vg 220 / 320 gearbox oil but we do others as well. . . . heres a video i did for my customers so they can see how my software works - https://hydraulicrs.co.uk/demo 3:57 in is where the samples starts so you can see what i do for a day job

thanks again everyone :)
Dave - thanks for that explanation.

As for the 2x objective - yes that should be an example you could use to get a somewhat wider field of view and still be able to get in focus on your present stand.

If client demand justifies the cost, I think a high power wide-range tereo zoom microscope with a transmitted stage and a trinocular head would be best to show everything from a full size patch to 200x. You could give clients a short video clip -- zooming from full patch down to particles of interest at high magnification. It might be a compelling way to show your results. Some of these scopes will also do darkfield and polarization.

If you do several of these in a day, a seamless zoom from about 10x to 200x could also speed up the documentation process. Might possibly justify the cost in time savings? Cost goes up, though, the wider the zoom range. Could be you get a smaller zoom range, but digitally magnify a 100x image?

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