Choosing a microscope for a friend...

Do you have any microscopy questions, which you are afraid to ask? This is your place.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#1 Post by imkap » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:46 pm

Hi, my friend who is a real expert in marine species, but actually does something else for a living, was at my place a few weeks ago and looked through the biological microscope for the first time in life and was quite happy with the whole experience. Before that he always claimed that he isn't interested in anything smaller than 1mm :mrgreen: He owns a stereo microscope already.

He told me to find a microscope for him, so I have a few options available and would like your help with the recommendation. I'm kind of overthinking a bit, so your help should probably point me somewhere...

1. There is a GFL without the head or optics at a symbolical price available locally, I have a 2.5, 40 and a 100, and a plain 0.9 condenser and I could make him a similar light source like mine. Should work good with DF filters for a start. He would need to buy 2-3 objectives and a head, preferably trinocular...

2. Our fellow forum member is selling his WL with complete optics, but some probably not too hard to solve mechanical problems for 300€+shipping probably 50-70€ but it is binocular and still would need a nicer condenser.

3. A working Axiolab from 1995, with only 2 objectives (10x,100x) and a BF 0.9 condenser, good thing about this one is that you can directly project to the camera, although I didn't try it with an adapter, juat leaning the camera on the hole. Objectives come now and then at sane prices... Not sure about a condenser for darkfield. I'd sell it to him maybe for 140€ or a bit less...

4. Binocular Nikon Labophot with 4 plan objectives, I did ask about this one once here and it still isn't sold. I'd try to get it for 250-300€
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15472&p=125236&hili ... ce#p125236
I think it is in good condition, as the guy selling it is knowledgeable about microscopes...

Although this kind of questions come over and over again, I hope it still might be fun... :D

Thanks

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#2 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:43 pm

Your friend is so lucky to have an experienced microscopist guide him in such a purchase.

Especially since most problems in old used microscopes seem to be related to mechanical, rather than optical faults.
Good luck with whatever transaction you choose !

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#3 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:46 pm

P.S. Binocular heads for Zeiss Standards are quite frequent on the market. Trinocular - less so.
A complete GFL, trinocular, from the US, has been listed for a long time - maybe even a year... US price was ~400-500$.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#4 Post by imkap » Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:59 pm

:) I think I'm more enthusiastic than experienced still, but thanks I appreciate your acknowledgment.
The prices for microscopes are all over the place, there are parts listed for 10 times more than a whole thing... Trinocular heads tend to be quite expensive, but still worth it especially if you don't have a head at all.

User avatar
zzffnn
Posts: 3200
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:57 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Contact:

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#5 Post by zzffnn » Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:38 am

imkap,

You did not say your friend’s budget, favorite subjects to look at or favorite magnification range. That would affect lots of options.

If he only needs objectives less powerful than 40x NA 0.65 or so, then most scopes and some DIY darkfield / oblique would work.

I would guess typical marine biology work doesn’t need magnification of over 40x at objective, but it really depends.

If he wants to go over 40x NA 0.65 and has a budget of over $1200 USD, then consider DIC capable complete scopes. PZO, Zeiss (locally sourced would be nice due to delamination concerns) and Leitz are all nice options.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#6 Post by imkap » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:16 am

Actually I think 4 options from my post should all be good for a start.
These are all in sub 300$, whether he wants a DIC or whatever in the future I'll leave up to him.

PeteM
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#7 Post by PeteM » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:07 pm

Could it be that your friend doesn't need a trinocular head? A cell phone camera -- clamped to a spare eyepiece -- makes an excellent microscope camera. You can buy the whole thing, including a new old stock cell phone, the clamp, a remote release, and a spare eyepiece for not much more than $100 US. Less if your friend already has a previous generation phone. This spare phone can be run on WiFi and swaps in and out in a matter of seconds. Not much more time than it takes to move the prism slider on a trinocular head.

A dedicated microscope camera equivalent in image quality or video rate would likely be as much as $400-500 here. And there's still the cost of a trinocular head, a photo relay lens, and an adapter. Unless your friend has a desire for the utmost quality in photos or videos, he might well be happy with a binocular scope - allowing him to get a better condition scope, more objectives, etc. for his money. The still images and movies are now very good from recent cell phone cameras - and the small lens makes a good match to most eyepieces and afocal imaging.

Particularly for Zeiss in my experience, it's hard to find properly corrected photo relay lenses. So even with a trinocular head, your friend might be going afocal from a Zeiss eyepiece. That will be less cumbersome with a 10-12mp or so phone camera than something like a DSLR. In addition, delamination if fairly common in old Zeiss heads. Should one be (or go) bad, it will much easier to find another binocular head (or even a monocular head where all the viewing and picture taking is through the camera and a monitor).

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#8 Post by imkap » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:24 pm

PeteM wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:07 pm
Could it be that your friend doesn't need a trinocular head? A cell phone camera -- clamped to a spare eyepiece....

Particularly for Zeiss in my experience, it's hard to find properly...
Thanks for the reply, you have a good point. I've seen some footage on this forum shot with a phone camera and is way better than I do with a camera. :mrgreen:
But we talked about it and he wants a trinocular, as he's got this new Olympus mirrorless camera.
He doesn't like fiddling much with stuff so I agree that the old Zeiss might not be a perfect solution.
The only thing is that I have some of Zeiss spare optics, I'd give to him at a symbolical price and a GFL can be kept around almost as a field scope if he gets something bigger in time. But still it would cost him 200-300$ with the head purchase, a new light source and an objective or 2. Even more if he'd like a better condenser soon...

I'm thinking maybe the Nikon Labophot might suit him best as it is the newest.Is it easier to setup a camera on a Nikon system with relay optics? Are these optics good for long term use, they compare well with e.g. Olympus, won't outgrow it soon?
I'd try get this one for 300€ + the trinocular head when it appears somewhere. And as you said he can try a smartphone meanwhile, or afocal camera and maybe he likes it...

PeteM
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#9 Post by PeteM » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:33 pm

If your friend has a full frame mirrorless camera, the Nikon 2.5x relay lenses and trinocular heads are reasonably common and affordable. You might want to check the forum, there's been a suggestion that the CFI relay lenses ("PLI 2.5x" meant for the Eclipse) are a bit better than the CF ones ("PL 2.5x"meant for Labophot-Optiphot).

If your friend has an APS-C sensor, Nikon also made a 2x relay lens that would be a better match. It's harder to find, but unlike the even-rarer Olympus 1.67x won't require a mortgage to afford it.

Nikon made half a dozen heads for Labophot-Optiphot-etc. Two-way, three-way, four-way, tilting ergonomic, teaching, etc. The two-way (100% to either the eyepieces or trinocular port) might be both affordable and good for a serious photographer as there are no prism surfaces to get dusty between the objective and relay lens. However, if he wants to view through the eyepieces and, say, simultaneously record video - then a three-way head will be best.

Nikon optical quality is comparable to Olympus BH2, and the "chrome free" optics can be an advantage in fitting some cameras. Either brand can have issues - particularly fine focus gears in need of replacement (easy, affordable) on Nikon. But both are overall robust and with excellent options for a wide range objectives and imaging methods.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#10 Post by imkap » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:54 pm

Thanks, this is great info...

I think I'll call the Nikon seller tomorrow and see what he has to say. It has been on the classifieds at least since I bought my GFL, so probably a year or so...

He actually has a micro four thirds sensor, I'll research a bit through the forum about these relay lens and look to the prices. I think a 2 way head is the best, as you can film while watching the screen anyway and with less glass there are less potential problems...

PeteM
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#11 Post by PeteM » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:13 pm

With an MFT sensor, it could be that a C-mount adapter might work best?

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#12 Post by imkap » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:20 pm

PeteM wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:13 pm
With an MFT sensor, it could be that a C-mount adapter might work best?
I don't know, I'll check. Not sure what kind of a mount is on the head.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#13 Post by imkap » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:46 am

The labophot is sold unfortunately :mrgreen:
we'll have to wait for something to pop up...

I'm thinking Axiolab might be good if I could find a trinocular head and a few objectives at reasonable prices. I'll get a 30mm adapter soon for direct projection and try some imaging. If that turns out good it might be worth a hassle...

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#14 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:17 pm

Is this a WL? Thanks
Screenshot_20220820-134344_Facebook.jpg
Screenshot_20220820-134344_Facebook.jpg (111.15 KiB) Viewed 4205 times

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#15 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:23 pm

imkap wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:17 pm
Is this a WL? Thanks

Screenshot_20220820-134344_Facebook.jpg
I don't think so. It is a Standard (14 or 16 I guess), but not WL.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#16 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:31 pm

How can you tell? I still don't know the difference... :D

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#17 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:37 pm

Now I see, the knobs are different... They all accept the same parts I suppose, is there a reason why a WL is considered superior to standard 14,16?

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#18 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:06 pm

The WL is larger and heavier, and its condenser carrier and stage carrier are mounted on dovetails; its nosepiece is exchangeable, and AFAIK its stage hase drop-down ergonomical controls, although this is not a unique feature. Magnifier changer and other accessories were developed for the WL - AFAIK, DIC for example.

In general, objectives and condensers and stages fit all Standards. The nosepiece is an exception - that of the WL (and GFL) differs from that of the larger (Universal and other large microscopes). And there are small differences among the smaller Standards as well.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#19 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:15 pm

This one lacks an objective revolever, should I be able to attach the one from GFL?

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#20 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:24 pm

I think so; would help to see a front view of the head of the microscope in the photo. If it has a dovetail, AND IF the nosepiece of the GFL can be detached, then I think it will fit. Some GFLs have a fixed noespiece, others have a detachable nosepiece.

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#21 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:29 pm

Please note that the Standard in the photo is equipped for an internal illuminator, inside the base; and if that is an incandescent 6V 15W, it will provide mediocre illumination. Especially since the distance from the lamp to the condenser lens is larger on the Standard than on the small-base GFL. There are Zeiss external illuminators, 60W halogen that provide better illumination.
Of course, LED retrofits add more options.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#22 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:11 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:24 pm
I think so; would help to see a front view of the head of the microscope in the photo. If it has a dovetail, AND IF the nosepiece of the GFL can be detached, then I think it will fit. Some GFLs have a fixed noespiece, others have a detachable nosepiece.
Thanks, I understand now... I think it wouldn't work, the connection is different. The part above the nosepiece
might be interchangeable, the one at the very top of the arm, but not sure if that might be hard to align right. I think I might pass on this one although it might be worth 40$ asking price anyway, this guy is selling a whole lot very cheaply, a lot of Reichert optics, so I'm kind of tempted to go see it. The head alone might justify the purchase, but still it is a bit far away and the seller does not want to send it.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#23 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:18 pm

Here is the lot:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... 5j8m_YZPaV

I think he would give any of this cheaply, but still I probably won't go as I have enough to do now... The Zetopan looks great and huge, he has cleaned the exterior, it even has a photo adapter, you can see it on some other pictures in the corner.

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#24 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:08 pm

imkap wrote:
Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:11 pm
The part above the nosepiece might be interchangeable, the one at the very top of the arm, but not sure if that might be hard to align right.
That part is precisely fitted by means of a 2-hole bolt and 2 locating pins and is hard to remove. I would not touch it.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#25 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:49 pm

I agree, better not touch it...

Dennis
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 3:19 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#26 Post by Dennis » Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:20 pm

imkap,
I know you are very knowledgeable about what you would have on a microscope etc...
But really perhaps you are over thinking it.
Have him maybe look at Ebay and see what he'd think he'd want and then show you for advise.
Many microscopes complete used for less than say 300 dollars or so.

Then after he uses it for awhile and wants to step it up perhaps offer advise again.

I gave away 3 microscopes to friends who wanted to start it as a hobby. They were all in the 200 dollar range.

User avatar
imkap
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#27 Post by imkap » Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:07 am

Thanks Dennis, in the end I offered him to borrow my GFL until something interesting pops up in the local ads. Local ads tend to have the best prices, if one is patient... :mrgreen:
eBay is great, but here in Europe the eBay prices tend to be higher than in the USA...
Last edited by imkap on Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dennis
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 3:19 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Choosing a microscope for a friend...

#28 Post by Dennis » Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:17 am

imkap,
My 2 microscopes are 1970s college types so okay.
Some of these people in the forum with the DIC etc super mega microscopes-
I usually think- I wish they lived in my neighborhood because I would show up at their door with my water samples!

Post Reply