Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

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dsquid
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Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#1 Post by dsquid » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:16 am

Hi,

I’m looking for advice on microscope gift for my wife and kid. Some background:

My wife worked for several years at a lab taking aquatic samples In the Colorado Rockies to analyze populations of microorganisms and aquatic insects for estimating health of local ecosystems, using mainly microscope for IDs.

That was about ten years ago, now we live in PNW close to ocean and freshwater. Our oldest kid has been showing lots of interest in toy microscope this summer, Having lots of fun looking at all kinds of things she finds and my wife and I have also been having fun with it.

I would like to invest in more quality model for a gift for upcoming birthday in November, even if kids grow out of it I’m sure my wife and I would enjoy it for years to come. I realize microscope my wife used at her lab is on a different level than what I’m looking at, but would like to get something that would give us good ability to image microorganisms in aquatic samples to a level that would let us Id.

I see lots of recs for things like amscope b490, swift 380t, etc but also other advise to pass on these and go used for something oldie but goodie like Zeiss Standard 18. I am fine with used route, and have some time to spend real hunting, but problem
is I don’t know if any of these would give us capabilities we are looking for.


So I could use some advice on what models to keep eye out for (and roughly what prices are reasonable). I also don’t really have a good sense of all the trade-off between old and new, but with kids I do know we don’t have much time for modding if used model would require a lot of work to get functioning properly.

Any advice on some models (either new or used) and prices to keep an eye out for? Tops I would want to cap budget at $750-1000 but if I can get away with $250 amscope and be happy with it for years, my wallet is also happy :)

PeteM
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#2 Post by PeteM » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:44 am

When you have enough posts to send a message, I can send you a guide to microscope brands and models. It gets updated periodically.

It's a frequent question, search for past responses. In addition to a Zeiss Standard, there are great Leitz, Olympus BH2, Nikon Labophot and Optiphot, Reichert MicroStar IV, etc. models. You should be able to get a good one of these around $350 to $500 (far better than a $250 Chinese scope built to a price).

Being able to easily take pictures is a plus -- and the extra cost of a trinocular head is often worth it. Being able to take "cellfies" adds a whole 'nuther dimension. Trinocular heads are in demand, so they add a bit to the price.

Since many aquatic specimens are (visually) pretty much semi-transparent bags of water, some sort of contrast enhancement can be useful: phase contrast, oblique, darkfield, even simple polarization can sometimes help.

What microscope did your wife previously use -- and what did she like best / least about it? Was it a standard compound scope or inverted? Could be similar models are available affordably.

dsquid
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#3 Post by dsquid » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:41 am

Thanks! That guide would be great. It was a standard compound, but she didn’t remember make or model.
I’ll ask her about likes/dislikes, that’s a great idea - probably much more memorable to her than a model number and more useful.

I think a trinocular head would be worth it. I already have a DSLR, its a sony but can get adapters for Nikon/Canon if that’s the standard mount. Would be fun to capture images/video, and could be cool to use live view if that worked so more than one person could observe at a time (I’ve used it to put the viewfinder feed live to my laptop when taking portraits before, dont see why that wouldn’t work here in a similar way).

Thanks for the advice, I saw a Zeiss standard 14 on eBay but it was close to 750, seems too high given the price ranges you were quoting. Will have to get my post count up for that guide, I could use it.

PeteM
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#4 Post by PeteM » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:27 am

Live view is actually a preferred way to view and take pictures, since there is less vibration to affect the image.

The prices given earlier are with a bit of patience. A trinocular head might add as much as $250 in an Olympus, maybe $150 in a Nikon in the models listed. They're near equally good scopes, the Olympus just has a bit more of a following through the dedicated documentation efforts of Carl Hunsinger, Alan Wood, and others.

Phase contrast, sadly, is a big jump up in typical used prices - but you might luck out or find it later.

apochronaut
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#5 Post by apochronaut » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:30 pm

Unfortunately, the best way to buy a microscope is to do it based on price. Target a price and look for the best instrument you can find at that price, irregardless of brand. Buying based on a guide can encourage you to overlook otherwise excellent microscopes in favour of a brand , as though the brand is more important than the features and condition.
All quality microscopes are created equal. They all do the same job based entirely on the specifications that they came from the factory with. Some have slightly better performance within those specifications or ergonomics that might appeal more to one person than another but an example of any microscope that is in fine shape is a better choice than one regarded to be better in a guide, which is worn out or has hidden defects. Sellers know that certain brands carry weight due to the name, so utilize that in order to gain market traction. There are a lot of hucksters out there. Don't get hung up on a brand because it is easy to sell a bad one of a promoted brand.

Upgrades. There is a lot of talk about upgrades. In almost all cases, this refers to improving the optics. Very few amateurs are going to need fluorescence, vertical illumination, DIC or high resolution dark field. If any of those features enter the picture, all of which require some highly specalized equipment, then you are probably in the market for another microscope anyway, so don't worry about the potential to upgrade beyond a certain level, which would just be an improvement in optics.
Improvements in optics sometimes take benefit from a harmonious improvement in the illumination system, thus allowing for better utilization of the optics. Adding phase contrast is an improvement in optics, adding dark field up to the level of high resolution oil immersion is an improvement in optics, adding flatter or wider fields, or better colour corrected objectives are improvements in optics. Adding polarization is an improvement in optics. Adding filters or masks is an improvement in optics. Almost any microscope above student grade can be upgraded sufficiently to meet most amateur's requirements through an improvement in optics.
Many upgrades will require the premium illumination system that the model carried. Aim for that in your original purchase. It will make all facets of your microscopy better and make upgrading in future that much easier......and it won't initially cost anymore.
Most upgrades will end up costing about the same value as the original cost of a planachro microscope. If you have a budget of 500 to 1000, say, then err on the low side for a basic mic.. If you are astute and don't cling to a brand, you can buy a research grade microscope for around 500.00 right now.
Chinese microscopes. Basically, the tier 1 Chinese scopes are one off scopes. They do an adequate job for what they are but are not easily improved and usually if they break, they break. Fishing for parts will likely be frustrating. They have always made various stands though, that serve as utilitarian research scopes domestically and have been sold to the better science supply houses as house brands. Some of these are now showing up on the resale market and can be excellent value. I picked up a fluorescence model of one recently for 75.00. Nothing wrong with it. It is still being made and has the potential to become a phase scope, since they are still being made and one can buy directly from the factory. This microscope is nothing like some of the rinky dink Amscope stuff. It weighs 25 lbs.
That's another option. Buying a new , better quality , infinity corrected Chinese scope directly from the factory.

PeteM
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#6 Post by PeteM » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:22 pm

Dunno, Phil. One beauty of a guide is that a user can find an attractively priced scope available locally, look it up among scores of brands and hundreds of models, and perhaps see the pros and cons.

Is this one with a plastic fine focus gear that needs to be checked? Does it have a limited focusing range that will make focus stacking difficult? Is it one where optics should be double checked for delamination? Or one where power supplies are prone to failure and "just a burned out lamp" might not be the case? Are there easily detached prisms in a stereo scope -- and a fix? Is there room under the head to add simple polarizaion? And so on. They'll learn about at least some common problems to check, the availability of parts, reasonable prices, and so on.

And for serious hobbyists, one of the reliable models with wide availability of parts and upgrades is a plus. There's a reason many members here have tended to converge on half a dozen brand and models, setting their first purchases of obsolete or cheap import scopes aside as they learned more. You've posted volumes (with thanks) about how to get better objectives and condensers to fit various American Optical>Reichert>Leica models, the wonderful but elusive plan fluors, and so on. People do end up wanting upgrades. And a new $300 Chinese scope certainly isn't likely created equal to a once $3000 quality scope now selling for $300 used (assuming you check for possible failure modes).

Just as with new or used cars or new or used anything, some really are better and more reliable than others.

I would agree there are a scores of models which could be a good starter scope - and the guide points out many of them. Even some now obsolete models from distributors like Boreal, Fisher, Hund, Swift, Tiyoda, Vickers, Wesco etc. and some of the better models from a dozen or more Chinese makers and the many more distributors.

apochronaut
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#7 Post by apochronaut » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:26 pm

Unfortunately, two individuals might see the pros and cons of various designs somewhat differently. A different experience and length of experience might infuse such a guide with a different perspective. It isn't all cut and dried and destined to be carved in stone. All microscopes have pros and cons. They all have a super side and a pooper side but I've never come across one that I wouldn't be able to be comfortable with , if it was my only one. I have been priveleged to have been able to use probably 4 or 500 microscopes, only one of a certain brand and many of others, so I know that price is the first specification required , in order to choose the right instrument.
New buyers do not have that privelege, so a guide on the surface might seem valuable but new buyers also don't have enough experience to interpret such a guide. When it comes to shedding an extra 2 or 3 hundred dollars in order to buy something recommended and by-pass something in fantastic shape for that much less because it wasn't recommended in someone's guide , that pushes the envelope of logic a little too much. A lot of first time buyers are vulnerable . That's how Amscope got so far.

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75RR
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#8 Post by 75RR » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:13 pm

I saw an early version of the guide, it has information on dozens of different brands of microscope.

It is in effect a very comprehensive guide not only to what is available, both new and used, but also what each microscope brings to the table.

Not sure how someone new to microscopy is expected to buy something in 'fantastic shape' without any information on the manufacturer or model.
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

dsquid
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#9 Post by dsquid » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:41 am

Thanks all for the thoughts and discussion. I asked my wife about her microscope at work and she didn’t have much in the way of complaints, it was standard compound, had decent brightness controls which she liked. There were three at the lab and they always gave the one they didn’t like to interns who were only there part time :roll: she did have some complaints about that one, mostly that it had some ergonomic issues which made it a pain for using hours a day, but hers reliably got the job done with little fuss and wasn’t a bother to use for extended periods of time daily. She doesn’t remember much more details than that.

I think I definitely want to go the used route, so will keep reading and researching as there does seem to be some risk in used if you don’t know what you are looking for. On that note, are there reputable used microscope dealers out there that take some of the risk out of the equation for a newbie, even if at a slightly higher price than a bargain deal? Don’t mind paying a fair used price if it means I don’t have to worry about getting a lemon...

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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#10 Post by Charles » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:10 pm

dsquid wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:41 am
I think I definitely want to go the used route, so will keep reading and researching as there does seem to be some risk in used if you don’t know what you are looking for. On that note, are there reputable used microscope dealers out there that take some of the risk out of the equation for a newbie, even if at a slightly higher price than a bargain deal? Don’t mind paying a fair used price if it means I don’t have to worry about getting a lemon...
I own numerous models of Zeiss Standards and could probably put together a microscope with your requirements, if you want to go the Zeiss route. Price would be dependent on model and accessories Some can be seen here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=629
Probably the best Zeiss Standards are the 18 and WL since they are highly upgrade-able with just simply interchanging and attaching different parts. But even a Standard 14-16 would be fine and you can still upgrade since they are very modular.

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75RR
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#11 Post by 75RR » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:36 pm

If you do decide to go with a Zeiss Standard, the WL is the top of the range.

It is a beautiful and practical research microscope.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... iss-WL.pdf
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

dsquid
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#12 Post by dsquid » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:12 am

The WL does look nice (and I’m already a Zeiss convert from my DSLR lenses). I found a WL for 675, two objectives. Not really sure what the appropriate price range is but it seems decent enough shape and when I look at prices of individual components the price doesn’t seem to far off. The only drawback is it doesn’t have a trinocular head, but I guess that could always be my first upgrade...

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75RR
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#13 Post by 75RR » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:02 am

First rule of Ebay is not to rush.

Second rule is to comparative shop by looking at the prices items actually sold for

To do that you want Advanced Search, the button to the right of the blue search button.
Type in item name, tick the Sold Listings box and then press search.
Prices of items sold (in the last 3 months) appear in green

Note: Some microscopes have delamination problems and Zeiss seems to have more than most.

Not in my book a game changer but something you need to be aware of and ask about when buying. Send back any that the ebay seller missed.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/ind ... delam.html

Perhaps Charles can PM you with an email address as you probably can't send PMs yet
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

Adam Long
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#14 Post by Adam Long » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:13 pm

I've been through exactly this decision over the summer... ended up with a Zeiss Standard 14. For under £500 I've got a rock-solid scope with brightfield, darkfield, high-mag darkfield and phase contrast capability at all mags. It is a joy to use and I've got lots of options going forward. I was a little impatient so didn't wait for bargains, but I'm confident I could recover most of the cost if I was to sell it. I'm not sure much of that would hold if I'd gone for the £300 Amscope that first piqued my interest. Of the 7 Zeiss objectives and 4 eyepieces I've got none show any signs of delamination, so although it's a concern I'm not sure the odds are too bad. Just need a trinoc head now...

Charles
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Re: Advice on decent microscope for aquatic samples

#15 Post by Charles » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:23 pm

The Black WL is decently priced for what it has on it. Rotating stage runs about $150-200, each of the Phase Neofluars run about $100-150, the Phase condenser with 1-2-3 phase and darkfield would run about $200, the rest of the stand with focus block, lighting, binocular head with eyepieces another $150-200. You would still need a power source to run the lighting. But I don't think he knows the real value of Zeiss microscopes because he also has a Zeiss listed as a 14 which is actually an 18 for $120 more than the WL only because it has a third objective and a power source. I think if you contacted the seller and offered $500 for the WL, since it doesn't have a power source or have him throw in the power source on the 14, he might go for it. Also try to convince him to put the 25X Neofluar from his '14' onto the WL he is selling. Wheel and deal is the way to go.

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