Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

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mgualt
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Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#1 Post by mgualt » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:11 pm

Hello,
I would like to try taking stereoscopic photos using a stereo microscope. My guess is the easiest way to do this would be to get a good stereo microscope and replace both eyepieces with cameras.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried this, and also if there is a stereo microscope with really good experience of stereoscopy. If anyone has any advice for how to do this in a reasonable cost <1K$USD, I would appreciate it.
Best wishes

Greg Howald
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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#2 Post by Greg Howald » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:17 am

I thought about such a thing for a while but I never found a solution for what you want to do. There are 3d scanners for computers. They have nothing to do with microscopes and they start at about $200.00 for very basic equipment.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#3 Post by DonSchaeffer » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:19 am

I have tried it with a regular microscope and one camera-- just shiting the viewpoint slightly. I have an app that converts two such views into a matched stereo pair.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#4 Post by Greg Howald » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:31 am

I'm sure we would like to know the name and source of such an app Don. That would truly be helpful. Thanks.
Greg

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#5 Post by PeteM » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:55 am

The original Nikon SMZ-10 stereo microscope had a trinocular port that could be switched to the left or right eyetube. Far more convenient that dueling cameras attached to each eyetube and available (used) for under $1K.

That said, stereo microscopes don't generally take the best low magnification pictures compared to dedicated camera rigs. You might inquire (or search) at the photomacrography.net site to see how others do it.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#6 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:29 am

Yeah, the smz-10 is the practical way to do this (I think there was an old Olympus SZ series which had a similar feature but I don't know which one). It isn't the best way to take kacro photos but it isn't the worst either--the famed (in the gem field) Photoatlas of Gem Inclusions series was photographed largely with an SMZ-10.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#7 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:11 am

mgualt wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:11 pm
Hello,
I would like to try taking stereoscopic photos using a stereo microscope. My guess is the easiest way to do this would be to get a good stereo microscope and replace both eyepieces with cameras.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried this, and also if there is a stereo microscope with really good experience of stereoscopy. If anyone has any advice for how to do this in a reasonable cost <1K$USD, I would appreciate it.
Best wishes
.
I tried a similar idea a couple of years ago, but I retained the eyepieces and used a couple of Motic cameras in afocal mode.
The results certainly proved the principle, but the cameras were only 800x600 resolution and not really worth the effort involved: I wanted to make paired prints for the old Holmes-style stereoscope.

Note: Unless you are happy to do the image alignment later ... it can be tricky to mount the cameras precisely.
The mechanics of the ‘scope will affect the ease of set-up: On my Vickers/Nachet NS50, for example, I am obliged to wedge the interocular distance because moving it causes the two images to rotate [one clockwise, the other anti-clockwise].

It’s a project I want to return to, and I would encourage you to try.

MichaelG.
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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#8 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:48 am

Here’s one of my test shots:
.
for parallel viewing or Holmes stereoscope
for parallel viewing or Holmes stereoscope
6855096C-8D3A-4756-BC01-EF01CFC50D6E.jpeg (101.46 KiB) Viewed 7627 times
.

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Chas
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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#9 Post by Chas » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:25 pm

I have tried this (on a Meiji BM1) and to be quite honest the photos were quite poor :-(
If the purpose is to get nice stereo pairs of small stationary things then a really good way to get them is to use an ordinary microscope, do a focus stack, and then ask the software to create a 'synthetic stereo' image. The program then shifts each higher slice of the image to the left (for the left eye) and to the right, for the right eye.
It works really well, there are lots of nice (stunning!) examples at photomacrography.net
If you are not after the 'side by side' format of the stereo images but anaglyphs (which have the advantage that you can zoom into them) then StereoPhotmaker will convert them (and do a lot more).
StereoPhotoMaker comes from http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/index.html
This process, however, will not work for moving targets.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#10 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:36 pm

I have mixed feelings about the synthetic stereos. Sometimes they're great but thry really son't give the same effect as looking through a real stereo microscope does. The smz-10 is nice for this reason, but aside from it coming up as an idea I have never seen anyone actually do much of it--the feature is mostly used to pick the better shot between each ocular it seems. I've done test shot pairs with it before and the results certainly worked anyway.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#11 Post by MicroBob » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:27 am

The pair of camers will only show one image plane sharp at a time. For a good 3D- view one would need two stacked images from different angles. The typical focus drive of stereo microscopes and the inclined light pathes wil make it difficult to get a good result.
As an alternative I would suggest to capture just one stack of images and calculate a stereo pair from it with a stacking software like picolay: http://www.focusstackingforum.de/t3631f ... l#msg27735

Or this one: http://www.focusstackingforum.de/t3815f ... l#msg28778

Bob

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#12 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:33 am

MicroBob wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:27 am
The pair of camers will only show one image plane sharp at a time. For a good 3D- view one would need two stacked images from different angles. The typical focus drive of stereo microscopes and the inclined light pathes wil make it difficult to get a good result.
I’m not sure what mgualt had in mind ... but my own long-term ambition is to have two cameras feeding live video to a ‘virtual reality’ display [as a modern version of the Victorian stereoscope]

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#13 Post by Rossf » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:27 am

Hey MichealG sound like we’ve had a similar project in mind-I too have been thinking of this for quite some time-but for video-I put on demo days about compost/organic-biodynamic farming-I’ve always wanted the demos to not be “dry”-ie put some humor into it and if there were kids attending I thought it would be great to show all the macroscopic arthropods and other larger creatures that contribute greatly to the composting process in 3-D footage-I’m sure adults would find it fun also! I had no interest in high Rez stills but want to do video and just use the red/green 3-D glasses method like they did with 3-D movies and comics in the 1950’s. Kids often like to have fun screaming at creepy critters and in 3-D thought it would a fun addition to the demo day-you don’t need high Rez for video as each frame is only on screen for 1/60 of a second-decent frame rate is more important (30fps minimum-standard definition-forget cameras with 15fps etc-would be pretty choppy viewing) - alighnment of both video streams is actually pretty easy in a video editing software-adjusting off tilt and X/Y or even experimenting with how far apart the superimposed images are and this can all be done while wearing the blue green glasses to see the results immeadiately- both video streams would have to turned B+W with one tinted red,one tinted green or blue.Here’s a wiki page on the process

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaglyph_3D

-if anyone has a pair of the red /blue anaglyph glasses can try on the images below (or make adhoc ones with red and blue cellophane) or look on the internet for probably better examples. Problem is I still don’t have a stereo scope yet!-shameful I know but need to do a fair bit of research into exactly what I want in one.
Regards ross
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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#14 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:50 am

.

Great post, Rossf ... thanks

My own interest is perhaps more ‘technical’ than your educational sessions, but we’re certainly on similar paths.
... reasonably high resolution and high frame-rate video is important for what I want; hence the interest in Holmes stereoscopes and their modern equivalents, rather than anaglyphs.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#15 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:46 pm

If dual viewing for video is the goal there are double photo attachments available for some stereo microscopes, including the Nikon SMZ line and the Wild/Leica m series (the latter being surgical beamsplitters). That would probably be the most convenient method for video, though not the cheapest.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#16 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:18 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:46 pm
[…] That would probably be the most convenient method for video, though not the cheapest.
Thanks ... but even with that generous discount, way out of my price range for this.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#17 Post by LeonhardEuler » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:53 pm

mgualt wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:11 pm
Hello,
I would like to try taking stereoscopic photos using a stereo microscope. My guess is the easiest way to do this would be to get a good stereo microscope and replace both eyepieces with cameras.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried this, and also if there is a stereo microscope with really good experience of stereoscopy. If anyone has any advice for how to do this in a reasonable cost <1K$USD, I would appreciate it.
Best wishes

I had the idea too. Judging by the number of people that have this idea it seems fairly natural to have. And thats a good thing as far as developing the idea into something many people are likely to enjoy.

So here is my take on it. I imagine integrating this with robust virtual reality software that can archive and catalog a variety of specimen contributions from a world-wide group of microscopists such as yourselves.

Then the virtual reality software would serve to conveniently navigate and view the archives. The idea could be augmented into a more powerful way by combining other techniques such as 3D stacking (similar in principle to 2D stacking), stitching, etc

the point is, we have great VR tech that is improving all the time. I am a computer scientist so perhaps I will get around to implementing it if I get time

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#18 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:38 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:18 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:46 pm
[…] That would probably be the most convenient method for video, though not the cheapest.
Thanks ... but even with that generous discount, way out of my price range for this.

MichaelG.
Haha yeah, I would never recommend buying it at that price, just showing off the existence. You could stack two of the one side units for much less, they're like 250 new. The wild/leica beamsplitters are very occasionally cheap but you'd also need two of the appropriate video adapters which are rarer and add up.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#19 Post by Rossf » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:54 am

MichealG I’ve even thought of using those swift iPhone microscope adaptors on each eyepiece-a lot of homes have more than one iPhone living there.Then you could take 4K footage from each eyepiece-again would need to adjust lineups and tilt issues in post production-MichealG are you wanting a display where people can look at a live demo of microscope to the modern version of Holmes stereographs?-I think doing this live would be a technical nightmare-not saying it’s not doable-but the anaglyph system the video stream has been corrected and colour graded for best results. Did you check out the wiki link-since the early 2000’s there has been a lot of improvements over the original concept-especially the section on “spectral interference systems”-it’s basically a much more updated version where instead of red and green for different eyes-each lens has RGB channels for both eyes but each lens has an interference filter so each eye gets a different spectral range of RGB allowing full colour without the polarisation glasses-I’ve been obsessed with 3-D comics and movies and the process since I was a teenager (thats Aspergers having its way!-it will force your interests into very specialised boxes!) Here’s a photo of a book I’ve had for over 40 years-I got the anaglyphs from it-my relationship with this book comes under the “I just can’t quit you” category!
Regards
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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#20 Post by Rossf » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:22 am

MichealG here’s an interesting link I just found basically talking about the iPhone idea for making 3-D medical training videos from surgical stereo microscopes! Now I’m really going down a rabbit hole!

https://www.nature.com/articles/eye2015282.pdf

mgualt I’m sorry if it seems I’ve hijacked this thread but hopefully some of the ideas will apply to what you want to do and kudos for bringing up the topic in the first place cos it seems a few quite a few people have been thinking similar thoughts but never got round to submitting the fire-starter post that gets these ideas interbreeding!
So thanks for posting it
Regards ross

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#21 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:40 am

Rossf wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:22 am
MichealG here’s an interesting link I just found basically talking about the iPhone idea for making 3-D medical training videos from surgical stereo microscopes! Now I’m really going down a rabbit hole!

https://www.nature.com/articles/eye2015282.pdf
.
Many thanks for that link, Ross ... This is the general [albeit non medical] ‘direction of travel’ that I am on.

To keep the wheels turning: I will [hopefully later today] post a few brief notes on my successes and failures to date, in the hope of attracting further suggestions.

I am quite sure that this is ‘do-able’ !!

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#22 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:52 pm

As promised ... a few brief notes:
  • I have been interested in stereoscopes for many years, and have a quite unreasonable fondness for the ViewMaster system ... which has all of the magic, but very little of the image quality, that we are seeking.
    https://www.viewmaster.co.uk/htm/quickref.asp
  • The idea of using two cameras on a stereomicroscope started to look practical when I purchased two Moticam 353 ‘gooseneck’ cameras [re-branded as Philip Harris Digifex] very cheaply on ebay. ... I dismantled these, to provide two small camera boards and a pile of useful mechanical items !
    These cameras are only USB 1.1 and have a maximum resolution of 800x600 pixels.
    They are slow, but they work surprisingly well with Motic ImagesPlus v2
    The sensors are 1/4” CMOS and are used afocally with Motic’s 8mm lenses.
    The general concept was quickly proved [see the image in my earlier post], but these cameras are certainly not the answer to my dreams.
  • For all my tests so far, I have used my Vickers/Nachet NS50 stereomicroscope, but it is not ideal : The viewing is excellent, and the eyepieces work well with afocal imaging, but the ‘swinging’ inter-ocular adjustment causes image rotation: This no problem when viewing visually, but is all too evident with cameras mounted.
    I am sure that a system with parallel eyetubes and linear displacement would be much easier to align !
  • Early this year, my interest was renewed when I discovered that ArduCam has a very modestly priced USB 3 camera which is [supposedly] UVC standard.
    ... I rushed to buy a pair, from the PiHut
    https://thepihut.com/products/8mp-1080p ... 9-mini-uvc

    They perform quite well on the Raspberry Pi 4, and on Windows ; but they simply don’t work on Mac OS X [and are not therefore UVC compliant] ... I spent several days discussing this by eMail with an ArduCam technical advisor, who was very keen to help but finally confirmed that there is a compatibility problem.

    The cameras were therefore returned to the the PiHut, whose customer service is exemplary ... They gave me a full refund, and have even updated their website to acknowledge the issue.
  • Whilst testing the ArduCams, using Raspbian on the RPi4, I was pleased to find that it is a very simple matter to open two cameras concurrently in Guvcview
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guvcview

    ... but please note:
    I didn’t get so far as to check the synchronisation between them.
    [this may turn out be a problem, because they always displayed slightly different frame-rates]

    Although I don’t have the skill to do so myself: I suspect it should be quite possible to write a ‘front end’ for Guvcview, to simplify the setting-up of two windows as a stereo pair ... meanwhile though, they can just be dragged around the screen.
  • My ambition is to have a camera on each ‘channel’ of a stereomicroscope, feeding a synchronised, and correctly aligned, pair of images as a high quality live video stream.
    ... these to be viewed in some form of stereoscope [probably based on the format of the popular VR goggles].
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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#23 Post by MicroBob » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:40 pm

Hi Michael,
interesting project!
What I'm not sure about is how the focussing should be done: Moving the entire stereo microscope head back and forth or the individual optics on their inclined axis? How would the stereo image look like when focussing, natural or giving headaches?

Bob

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#24 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:53 pm

That’s a very significant question, Bob

I sincerely hope that it is the former !

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#25 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:12 pm

.

I’ve just found the video to accompany the smartphone article:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm ... M3_ESM.mp4

[ not for the squeamish ]

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#26 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:47 pm

Slightly off-topic ... but I did mention ViewMaster

Here’s a serious scientific application:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1987-2-Vol-S ... 3204513224

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#27 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:49 am

A pair of these cameras might be just what I need for 'real-time' stereo:
https://www.shodensha-inc.co.jp/en/dn3uvc-130/

Has anyone dealt with Shodensha ?

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#28 Post by Rossf » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:55 pm

I forgot to mention MichealG but as you can probably guess I was obsessed with viewmasters as well! They were like a cute optical dioramas.-I don’t think that ophthalmology disks on eBay would be cute optical dioramas! Great way to turn your kid into Buffalo Bill! In regards to cameras also what codec were you using to capture the images? Not sure about AVI but QuickTime usually is set to “variable frame rate” meaning the frame rate could drift from 21fps to 24fps or whatever-you mentioned that the previous cameras showed slightly different frame rates -it’s to do with saving data so if a scene is very visually complex the codec will drop frame rate a tad to keep data per frame relatively the same-but two cameras could then be “deciding” when to drop frame rates differently leading to some off kilter effects-QuickTime can be tuned to higher standards than straight out of a camera but it’s considered a selling point how little data is required for photos and video. When Apple changed the H.265 to HEIF I couldn’t believe how bad the photos looked up closely..certain cameras can be synced by a cable so they take the next frame at exactly the same time-this is always used in professional 3-d productions-it’s called time code sync- I found a link to a device that syncs time code for any Bluetooth enabled cameras including iPhones and GoPro and more professional cameras-Heres the link

https://www.timecodesystems.com/product ... asyncblue/
How much are the Japanese cameras? Can you change the frame rates or stuck to 55fps-it’s an odd frame rate to be stuck to-don’t know why they didn’t stick to 50/60 fps which a re standard industry frame rates-just food for thought
Ross

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#29 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:35 pm

.

The brief tests I did with the Arducams were on a Raspberry Pi 4 ... I could never get them to work on either of my Macs.

One USB 3 channel was always a little slower than the other, whether running MPEG4 or YUYV
... I didn’t investigate further, because I had decided to return them.

The Japanese cameras are listed [as you will see from the link] at 69,000 USD :lol:
... The Japanese site does not seem to work, but I have eMailed Thailand
... They sent a courtesy reply [confirming that the do not have a U.K. distributor] very promptly, but warned me that it will will probably be after the Songkran festival before I get a proper quote.

Guesses so far are:
1. 69 USD ... hopefully their formatting on the Japanese site defaults to Yen style, and they didn’t notice
2. 690 USD ... because the decimal comma got put in the wrong place
3. any other number !!

They look very promising ... but only at the right price.

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Re: Using a pair of cameras with a stereo microscope

#30 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:58 am

I found the data-sheet for the sensor used in the DN3UVC-130
https://www.teledyne-e2v.com/content/up ... 76C560.pdf
... may be of interest [or not]

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