Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

Do you have any microscopy questions, which you are afraid to ask? This is your place.
Post Reply
Message
Author
anajparsat123123
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 29, 2021 2:41 am

Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#1 Post by anajparsat123123 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:15 pm

Hi again everyone,

I have been posted multiple times about buying a phase microscope but I have just recently decided to go for a used one. I am looking for direct suggestions of microscopes to buy on ebay since this will be my first microscope and I'm not very experienced. I want to use it to analyze live cells without staining. Also, why does phase contrast make live cells easier to see and how significant is the difference between looking at live cells on brightfield vs phase contrast (I have seen many websites say you can't view live cells without phase contrast)?

Requirements (based on what little I know about phase contrast microscopes): turret condenser (with 5 positions including bf and df), $300-450 budget, binocular/trinocular (don't really care), and any other components that you would recommend having. Also: no maintenance needed, broken parts, or anything too complicated to deal with.

This one is out of my budget but any comments on the quality or concerns about this microscope would be much appreciated: https://www.ebay.com/itm/392714315029?h ... SwtyxeYB4U

I really appreciate everyone on this forum. Everyone has been so helpful and I can't wait to join the microscopy community!

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#2 Post by 75RR » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:18 pm

.
One needs a little flexibility on pricing when buying used.

Would not have thought that $45 would be a deal breaker. Where are you located?
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

anajparsat123123
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat May 29, 2021 2:41 am

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#3 Post by anajparsat123123 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:20 pm

I'm located in California. Well my flexibility maxed out at 450. I'm really looking for something less.

BramHuntingNematodes
Posts: 1538
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:29 am
Location: Georgia, USA

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#4 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:42 pm

An older AO model might be a good bet. They had about the most comprehensive selection of phase objectives, many of which are available relatively cheaply. The only drawback I can see is that it might be difficult to find a complete set up all at once.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Phill Brown
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 1:19 pm
Location: Devon UK.

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#5 Post by Phill Brown » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:04 pm

Nikon Labophot 2.
Can definitely be found in your budget.
Google search rather than eBay search engine.

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#6 Post by 75RR » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:15 pm

Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

PeteM
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#7 Post by PeteM » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:27 pm

Most phase contrast microscopes with a condenser turret for the phase annuli will run a bit over your budget.

The new Motic posted elsewhere is the best deal I've seen on a new scope. The best deals I've seen on a used scope are old American Optical series 50 or 60 around $200 or so. These are simple and work fine, but are limited to 40x (400x) in phase contrast due to the older and dimmer illumination systems. A home-brew LED upgrade would be pretty easy if you're electro-mechanically inclined.

Reichert Microstar IV scopes with a single push in annulus are another possibility - more toward the top of your range. A Zeiss Standard phase contrast scope might also be within budget. Both are solid scopes, not too hard to use.

Dubious
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun May 09, 2021 7:55 pm

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#8 Post by Dubious » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:26 pm

That Ebay link you posted to the Motic really does seem to be a reasonable price for a phase contrast microscope package. For most microscopes, you would pay more for an add-on phase contrast condenser and phase objectives. I notice the seller has six units available. Perhaps you could contact him and try to negotiate a slightly lower price to get within your budget, maybe without the 100x oil objective. (Oil is messy, anyway, and you probably don't need that power.)

As to phase contrast vs. brightfield, the person who came up with phase contrast won the Nobel for his discovery, so it was considered a very significant advance in microscopy. However, as with most things, there are pros and cons (the con is mainly the price, as the turret condenser generally has a brightfield setting for situations where brightfield is better). On this site, you will find links to some Microbehunter videos discussing phase contrast. (Or just do a search on Youtube.)

Junkyardkahrs
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:41 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#9 Post by Junkyardkahrs » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:39 pm

I ended up buying one of these Motic BA300 microscopes from the Ebay link anajparsat123123 provided in the first message of this thread. The total cost came to $495. It showed up last week and I've been playing with it for a few days. I should mention that I have ZERO experience with microscopes up until about a month ago.

The seller seems to have all sort of surplus lab equipment. These BA300's appear to be a lot of 16. Most of them have sold at this point. It was packed by covering with a clear bag then expandable foam injected to fill the space. That made it fairly secure for shipping but the original packing box and foam must be long gone. It has some inspection stickers from 2017 and 2018 on it.

I thought, as some others did, that it was a pretty good price for a phase contrast microscope. I have been impressed with the images and videos posted to various instagram accounts that use more recent Motic products. A new Motic BA310E with a phase kit is now over $3000. How different could the new scopes be compared to the earlier versions?

The Good:
1. In general, it works. The brightfield and darkfield works fine, and the phase contrast does its thing. Haven't looked at a wide variety of subjects, but looking at something like little creatures swimming around in pond water samples, I definitely appreciate the pop that the phase contrast provides. I haven't seen any mentions of this on the forum, but I think the imperfections and artifacts in the glass are suddenly VERY pronounced along with the subject. Am I imagining this? I have some slides from Carolina Biological on order to see if there is any difference in product quality.
2. I think darkfield is often more compelling and beautiful than phase.
3. The x/y movement of the stage is smooth
4. The eyepieces have the high eyepoint that I have grown accustomed to in modern binoculars. But there are no eye cups that would give me a point of reference for where to position my eyes so I'm still getting used the kind of 'floating' at the right distance to get that nice wide field.

The Bad:
1. The stage shifts laterally when raising and lowering the coarse focus. It clunks and shifts on its travel, like there's a loose ball in there stuck in the wrong place.
2. The fine focus doesn't hold- no matter how I loosen or tighten the tension ring, it still slowly spins and lowers under its own weight. I removed the fine knob revealing a cluster of brass gears. I didn't see any obvious clutch assembly. I decided not to go further and put it back together. For now.
3. The 100x objective is, well, kind of trashed. It must have sat pressed against a contaminated slide for months. The end was corroded and covered with some crusty substance that, even with electronics cleaner, I am still unable to remove. It is an oil objective and I have not tried it with oil yet. The glass looks okay. I don't know if oil objectives are usable without oil.
4. When I do try looking through the 100x, I see kind of a crack. Turning the objective in its threads revealed the crack is in the head optics, not the objective. When I removed the head, I can see some kind of broken or delaminated prism on one side of the assembly. I can also hear loose clunking sounds that make me wince when I turn the head over.
5. I called the service (San Diego area) that placed their sticker on it 7 years ago. He answered later that day, and very politely but bluntly saying they won't take the job. Can't get parts for them, they aren't serviceable. "The only scopes I really recommend is Nikon and Olympus. Out of all the equipment I work on, those two are the only really good microscopes."

So I've learned a lesson, I think. Maybe I got the runt of the litter. The value of it, in my mind, is slowly dropping. They're nice when they're new, but you can't really service them, and we are discouraged from trying to service them. To be honest, I still lust after a new Motic Panthera. But there is no romance to it. What really impressed me is something else...

A couple weeks before this, I bought a Leitz Laborlux SM POL. A monocular polarizing scope from about 1970, I think. It had all the accessories, the retardation plates, a proper case. A well-cared for college microscope that harkens to another time of Apollo moon missions and college kids with nerd glasses and pocket protectors. This was also Ebay- about $465 with shipping. Not a bargain- but the value of it, to me, keeps growing. Could it be possible that these were $15k (inflation adjusted) when purchased new? When you see the fine craftsmanship it starts to make sense. What a joy this little thing is. The condenser alone is such an exquisite little jewel of an object. I intend to fully disassemble and clean it up. The tiny arm for the diaphragm is finished at a Rolex level. The analyzer levers, the focus action, the condenser rack all move with a buttery perfection. Even the quality of the black lacquer, and the machining of the objectives- it all adds up. And it makes wonderful rainbow images. So... I'll be keeping the little Leitz. Not sure what to do with the Motic.
Last edited by Junkyardkahrs on Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Motic BA300 phase
Leitz SM POL

Junkyardkahrs
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:41 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#10 Post by Junkyardkahrs » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:42 pm

MoticBA300_Leitz_SM_POL_smaller.jpeg
MoticBA300_Leitz_SM_POL_smaller.jpeg (106.33 KiB) Viewed 3647 times
A side-by-side images of the above mentioned Motic and Leitz microscopes.
Motic BA300 phase
Leitz SM POL

hans
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#11 Post by hans » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:53 pm

Junkyardkahrs wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:39 pm
The Bad:
1. The stage shifts laterally when raising and lowering the coarse focus. It clunks and shifts on its travel, like there's a loose ball in there stuck in the wrong place.
2. The fine focus doesn't hold- no matter how I loosen or tighten the tension ring, it still slowly spins and lowers under its own weight. I removed the fine knob revealing a cluster of brass gears. I didn't see any obvious clutch assembly. I decided not to go further and put it back together. For now.
3. The 100x objective is, well, kind of trashed. It must have sat pressed against a contaminated slide for months. The end was corroded and covered with some crusty substance that, even with electronics cleaner, I am still unable to remove. It is an oil objective and I have not tried it with oil yet. The glass looks okay. I don't know if oil objectives are usable without oil.
4. When I do try looking through the 100x, I see kind of a crack. Turning the objective in its threads revealed the crack is in the head optics, not the objective. When I removed the head, I can see some kind of broken or delaminated prism on one side of the assembly. I can also hear loose clunking sounds that make me wince when I turn the head over.
You should return it. The listing is used condition ("fully functional" and covered by eBay money back guarantee) and any one of those defects is plenty of ground to return it for a full refund including seller covering shipping both ways. Open a case with eBay if the seller is not responsive.

Phill Brown
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 1:19 pm
Location: Devon UK.

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#12 Post by Phill Brown » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:09 pm

On the plus side, you have a set of phase objectives and a disc type phase condenser?
A suitable donor Motic with trinocular head and working focus will turn up.
What is meant for you will not pass you by.

User avatar
75RR
Posts: 8207
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:34 am
Location: Estepona, Spain

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#13 Post by 75RR » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:02 pm

.
These are Ebay's definition of Used and For Parts or not Working:

Used:
An item that has been previously used. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or an item that has been returned to the seller after a period of use. See the seller's listing for full details and description of any imperfections.

For parts or not working: An item that does not function as intended or is not fully operational. This includes items that are defective in ways that render them difficult to use, items that require service or repair, or items missing essential components. See the seller's listing for full details.

Given the condition it is in you can choose full refund or negotiate a discount as if it were For Parts
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

Dubious
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun May 09, 2021 7:55 pm

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#14 Post by Dubious » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:04 pm

Yes, you should probably return the Motic--it was not as described. Alternately, depending on how much you like it, you could contact the seller and get him to compensate you for those problems. He still has more of that model listed on Ebay, so could swap you parts or an entire unit, or refund some money.

One thought with respect to the stages and focus not staying in place is that someone may have lubricated parts with a thin oil rather than the stiff grease that is used for microscopes--forget what it's called, but it is stiffer than ordinary grease. If you keep the Motic, you definitely want to fix that movement.

You could certainly obtain an older big name microscope with phase contrast but would likely pay more unless you found everything as a package. I went that route with a Leitz Laborlux 12. I got a good deal on the microscope with brightfield setup, and it turned out to be in good condition (on Ebay, you run into problems with the condition of big name scopes just as with Motics, and the sellers often don't really know the condition of what they are selling); but by time I found and added a phase contrast condenser and phase objectives, I paid somewhat more than you did for the Motic. The Laborlux is a nice sturdy microscope, but your Motic has wider field eyepieces (Laborlux is 10x/18mm) and the Motic has modern Plan infinity objectives.

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4277
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Buying Suggestions/Q's: Used Phase Contrast Microscope

#15 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:46 pm

A faulty fine focusing mechanism is a pain to repair. Damping grease may help but only if you can safely take the mechanism apart - them put it back together. Even this issue alone justifies returning the Motic.

Immersion oil objectives only yield an acceptable image when immersed in oil (sometimes water or glycerine can replace the oil, to some extent, but it is not recommended IMHO.

Darkfield and phase contrast are two separate modalities. Each has its pros and cons. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

Phase contrast is superb for viewing thin, flat, transparent objects (i.e. live unstained cells). Artifacts arise from out-of-focus objects. If you focus on a single object (or a group of nearby objects) you can get a very good image with little artifacts.

Post Reply