Buying a microscope in EU

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imkap
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Buying a microscope in EU

#1 Post by imkap » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:04 pm

Hi everyone, congratulations on this nice community.

I'd like to buy a microscope mostly for looking at plankton and other pelagic creatures. Maybe in future something else also, but currently this is the main focus. I'd like to attach a camera to it also, at first maybe the cheap microscope USB camera is ok, but in near future we'd like to attach our Sony mirrorless with an adapter and try to get some better photos.

I did some research myself but still would like some advice if possible :roll:

I think a compound trinocular microscope is the right choice.

I can easily order here these:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144002202188 ... SwgX5gXQVH

this one has a 5MP camera included in price with 2 pairs of eyepieces

or TS-optics

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/pr ... 1000x.html

The second one is a bit more expensive and you don't get a camera or the double eyepieces, I'm not sure is it better for some reason or not.

I've also read a thread on this forum where it is recommended to buy an old/used microscope instead of the new Chinese made one. The only ones I can find right now locally are Carl Zeiss Jena Laboval 2 (200€) and Leitz not sure which model (400€), I'm not sure about buying used old as I have no experience. They are not available in my town so I should travel to get them, or receive by post...
I have some friends who work in different labs, but they use some very expensive professional microscopes and never really bothered with the ones within my budget so they don't have any experience with the models listed here... I'm ok with a bit of greasing or whatever is needed, but not sure I'd like to fiddle too much servicing by myself.

I would like to spend up to 300-400€ for a microscope, but still hope it would be sturdy enough to work for years...
So do you think any of these are good buys, or should I wait a bit more and try to get something better used if I get a chance?

Thanks

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#2 Post by 75RR » Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:50 pm

.
There is no advantage to the second microscope you linked to, so if you were thinking of buying one of them go with the first.

As to the price, assuming you can get it for €300 (no extra shipping or taxes) then for a new first microscope it is not a bad deal.

Be aware though that if you develop a more serious interest in microscopy then you will want a better built modular microscope that is more upgradable.

To sum up: Perfectly good learner microscope, when you outgrow it give it to a nephew or niece.
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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#3 Post by deBult » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:04 pm

Good source of 2nd hand scopes is the Mikro-Market on the German forum

https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#4 Post by imkap » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:46 pm

75RR wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:50 pm
.
There is no advantage to the second microscope you linked to, so if you were thinking of buying one of them go with the first.

....

To sum up: Perfectly good learner microscope, when you outgrow it give it to a nephew or niece.
It's in the UK :shock: I thought it was Netherlands as are some other listings of the same shop, thanks for your quick reply... I figured they might be very similar in construction...
deBult wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:04 pm
Good source of 2nd hand scopes is the Mikro-Market on the German forum

https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php
Thanks, I'll look, although I don't speak German, but I suppose Google will help me :geek:

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#5 Post by Alexander » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:02 pm

Just post in English and get your answers in English. The forum members do have many things available not advertised on the forum.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#6 Post by imkap » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:11 am

Hi, I found an OMAX om83es microscope for 230€, without a camera or anything. So maybe I buy that...

Although I'm still tempted to buy an old microscope :D they look better and probably will last forever...

This one popped up this morning: I've looked up on the internet and found out it should be 1965-1969 by the serial number. But cannot find the model number or any talk about it. The seller is asking a bit less than 300€ for it, maybe he would reduce more if contacted. The eyepieces on the photo are also included in the sale... It's a binocular, but still I suppose I could attach a camera to one of the eyepiece holes.

Does anyone know what model is this, it seems pretty frequent? Is this good for using or it's a collectors item?

EDIT: I found a post on the forum about this one, it seems that it's quite usable... I'll call the seller, I'm just not sure it is complete, so please tell me do you see any parts missing. Thanks

Thanks

Image

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#7 Post by deBult » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:57 pm

The 2nd hand value of a new “chinese” scope is not very high, you will probably be able to sell your 2nd hand 20-60 year old Zeiss/Leitz/Reichert/Nikon/Olympus (not that many Spencer or AO scopes on the European side of the pond) for the same amount you initially invested.

Buying new from a reputable dealer will give you an option to reach out when the scope has some issues.
Last edited by deBult on Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#8 Post by deBult » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:00 pm

imkap wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:11 am
EDIT: I found a post on the forum about this one, it seems that it's quite usable... I'll call the seller, I'm just not sure it is complete, so please tell me do you see any parts missing. Thanks
When calling the seller explicitly ask for delammination of eyepieces and objectives: a common issue with Zeiss scopes of this era.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#9 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Yes, that is the Zeiss Standard GFL. Binocular.
A great little microscope IMHO. Chief advantage to me is small footprint. Feels of quality construction.
That price is somewhat high. Depends on the condition and what is missing. I would try and negotiate.
Mechanical status: check all mechanical controls and knobs. Focusing (coarse and fine); condenser carrier (up-down, centration); stage (X and Y motions);
head rotation; nosepiece rotation; interpupillary adjustment; field aperture; they should all be smooth. Dealing with frozen/stuck parts
is not always easy. If the focusing is not perfect, I would avoid it at all.
Optics: which eyepieces ? which objectives (BTW the objectives are plan achromats as far as I can see in the photo).
Which condenser ? the one I see is the basic, flip-top-lens (either 0.9 or 1.3), that can do brightfield and some darkfield with the 6X, 10X, 16X objectives.
Illuminator: I see the power supply, but not the lamp (bulb on a small carrier) that goes inside the base of the scope. That is an incandescent 6V/15W bulb that provides acceptable (NOT great) brightfield; it can do Kohler illumination.
Mine is retrofitted with a 10W LED which provides great illumination.
Photography is possible, although a trinocular would be far more convenient - but a trinocular head might cost 100-200$, possibly more.
For good quality photography with an SLR or similar camera AND a camera lens, a KPL eyepiece is important.
Operating instructions can be found.
deBult wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:00 pm
When calling the seller explicitly ask for delammination of eyepieces and objectives: a common issue with Zeiss scopes of this era.
Definitely !


Edit: BTW - the power supply is not the original Zeiss part; possibly made or at least marketed by "Ludl" in the USA. Only for the better, the original Zeiss ones are really outdated.

Question - you mention a serial number of the microscope, is it visible in the photo ?

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#10 Post by imkap » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:51 pm

Hi, thanks for the extensive info...

There has been a 140deg twist to the story this morning. I've sent the picture of a Zeiss to my biologist friend this morning to ask for an opinion and he told me that he doesn't know much about this one but he has a spare one at work and he will borrow it to us for as long as we need it. It is a huge Carl zeiss jena scope, it has some box in the back don't know what for... So the AmScope /omex scope is definitely out...

Here is a picture, any info is appreciated :)

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/lHWKHmW1atOL

As for the one in the ad, the seller does not know anything about microscopes. He sells all kinds of stuff, I have called him, he says all the wheels are working and it's like new :D There are at least 10 eyepieces and 4 extra objectives in the package. So hopefully some of them should be in good condition.

I'll call him a bit later today and maybe make an offer, I think 100-150e should be OK and I'm willing to take a risk for that kind of money. There is no lamp or the cable connecting the adapter with the light. I suppose I can make the new cable myself. The problem is that he lives some 400 km from me so I can't really inspect it. This one is quite portable so I can carry it somewhere over the weekend or something, so it makes sense to have 2 scopes. And the eyepieces should be good for the big Jena too.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#11 Post by imkap » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:58 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Question - you mention a serial number of the microscope, is it visible in the photo ?
Serial number is 4245903. Thanks

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#12 Post by 75RR » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:16 pm

imkap wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:51 pm
Here is a picture, any info is appreciated :)

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/lHWKHmW1atOL
Looks like a Fluoval - with transmitted and reflected light

https://www.apokromat.hu/_media/fluoval-2.pdf
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#13 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:29 pm

About the lamp for the GFL: those incandescent 6V/15W bulbs are not a good choice IMHO. Quite costly, short lived if used at maximum power (to yield a real bright field), and if not the exact original for Zeiss part, do not provide uniform illumination unless you fiddle with bulb position within its receptacle in the microscope base. And, as said before, one needs the bulb holder part as well.
A retrofit of a 10W LED would be better. There are at least two commercial sources for it, although the price is roughly 150-200 USD.
Or, find a buy a used Zeiss 60W external halogen illuminator, that connects at the rear of the base (the bulb stays outside the microscope).

If the Carl Zeiss Jena will satisfy, and you can keep it (indefinite loan so to speak) I doubt that buying the GFL. The optics are not exactly the same. They provide somewhat different optical corrections and compensations. However, for the sum you offered - maybe still a bargain.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#14 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:32 pm

75RR wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:16 pm
imkap wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:51 pm
Here is a picture, any info is appreciated :)

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/lHWKHmW1atOL
Looks like a Fluoval - with transmitted and reflected light

https://www.apokromat.hu/_media/fluoval-2.pdf
An impressive research machine of the past...

Just verify that it comes with the halogen lamp, and not only the mercury or xenon lamp.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#15 Post by imkap » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:46 pm

I have negotiated the price for the GFL Standard, got it for 220€ with 10 extra Zeiss objectives and 3 pairs of eyepieces, it has 2 lens they look like some Barlow or similar and some more extras... hopefully it will all (or some) be ok. :mrgreen: Made a video call with the seller everything moves nicely and the scope looks like it has been looked after. I decided to take a risk this time :D

The Fluoval is crazy big but it's trinocular, so hopefully I'll be able to take some photos through it. I think we can open a laboratory for (fake) Covid testing.

Thanks everyone for your help, I'll keep you posted

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#16 Post by imkap » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:57 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:29 pm
About the lamp for the GFL: those incandescent 6V/15W bulbs are not a good choice IMHO. Quite costly, short lived if used at maximum power (to yield a real bright field), and if not the exact original for Zeiss part, do not provide uniform illumination unless you fiddle with bulb position within its receptacle in the microscope base. And, as said before, one needs the bulb holder part as well.
A retrofit of a 10W LED would be better. There are at least two commercial sources for it, although the price is roughly 150-200 USD.
Or, find a buy a used Zeiss 60W external halogen illuminator, that connects at the rear of the base (the bulb stays outside the microscope).

If the Carl Zeiss Jena will satisfy, and you can keep it (indefinite loan so to speak) I doubt that buying the GFL. The optics are not exactly the same. They provide somewhat different optical corrections and compensations. However, for the sum you offered - maybe still a bargain.
I'll have both scopes by the end of the week :roll:, this one seemed like a good deal with all the extras and good condition. Hopefully it is. I bought it as we usually go out of town for weekends to our 'vacation home' so we can keep one there...

Actually my son is quite religious with exploring the sea life so he uses his small scope all the time, so I want to avoid having to lug a scope every time... And if it turns out we don't need both I'll probably be able to sell it, especially if it turns out to be usable. Also I somehow got excited about having a scope from the 60s, so I kind of had to buy it :oops:

For bulb holder and a lamp I think there will be some DIY work done, I have a friend who makes metal things, so he can probably make something usable for the holder :D

we'll see...

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#17 Post by imkap » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:57 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:32 pm
75RR wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:16 pm
imkap wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:51 pm
Here is a picture, any info is appreciated :)

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/lHWKHmW1atOL
Looks like a Fluoval - with transmitted and reflected light

https://www.apokromat.hu/_media/fluoval-2.pdf
An impressive research machine of the past...

Just verify that it comes with the halogen lamp, and not only the mercury or xenon lamp.
I'm not sure if there are any inside, we'll see...

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#18 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:21 pm

imkap wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:57 pm
For bulb holder and a lamp I think there will be some DIY work done, I have a friend who makes metal things, so he can probably make something usable for the holder
Actually those lamp holders and bulbs pop up from time to time on eBay. At unreasonable prices that justify negotiations.
Do post images of the objectives, eyepieces and the other toys - so we can identify each...
Most important - congratulations and good luck with your new acquisitions !

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#19 Post by 75RR » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:04 am

.
Also I somehow got excited about having a scope from the 60s, so I kind of had to buy it
The Zeiss GFL is a beautiful and very well made/engineered microscope.

If in good condition it will give you years of faithful service. Don't rush getting the trinocular head, best prices go to those with patience.

GFL user manual in German: https://www.dropbox.com/s/stkxinti4mjd7 ... l.pdf?dl=0

Most of the things in the Zeiss Optical System Brochure and the Standard fuer Medizin und Biologie will fit on your microscope, though they may not be colour coordinated ;)

http://www.science-info.net/docs/zeiss/ ... ystems.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtfdpwqujtdd3 ... e.pdf?dl=0

+ link to assorted Zeiss manuals and old price lists: http://www.science-info.net/docs/zeiss/
.
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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#20 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:20 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:29 pm
Or, find a buy a used Zeiss 60W external halogen illuminator, that connects at the rear of the base (the bulb stays outside the microscope).
Oops, my mistake. That lamp is also an incandescent, not halogen. The 100W illuminator is halogen.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#21 Post by imkap » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:20 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:20 am
Oops, my mistake. That lamp is also an incandescent, not halogen. The 100W illuminator is halogen.
I'll try to plug a halogen 15w lamp into the existing transformer and fit it somehow. Hopefully it should work at least for some time...

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#22 Post by imkap » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:00 pm

Hi, after much anticipation :mrgreen: the scope arrived today safely and it's sooo good. I don't believe we have it. The design and functionality, they just don't make this kind of stuff anymore anywhere, at least not for 200€ :D Everything works as it should except the power supply which is not important anyway, I'll just put some LED dimming circuit inside and it should be good to go...

Here are some pics of the objectives I've got, not sure how to use the Fluotar as I can't come close enough for the focus. All except one are Carl Zeiss, one is Winkel, others mostly West Germany and a few are Germany so I suppose they were made later. I'm not sure how to test them for defects, but so far I haven't noticed any problems... I also have 11 eyepieces (8x, 10x, 12.5x)
There are 4 more mounted on the scope all of them Carl Zeiss Plan (25, 0.45) (40,0.65) 2x the same (2.5, 0.08), one is a bit new I think...

Is it ok to use alcohol to clean the lens, or it is harmul for some coatings? I've noticed some residue on the Oil lens not sure if I should use alcohol to remove it...

I temporarily fitted a g4 2W LED inside so there is some light, it's ok for the onion skin :D not sure it's enough for other stuff. I'll try to fit a dimmable 4W later, I can't find one locally... I think I should clean it completely and add some grease. Just need to study how it should be done, I wouldn't like to spoil something...

Thanks everyone for your help...
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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#23 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:09 pm

Why, wow, congratulations.

Two late here by now for detailed evaluation so just a few notes:

There are great WF 10X KPL eyepieces, high eyepoint - for viewing. Hopefully not delaminated.
There are 8X KPL - and maybe 10X KPLs - on the right ? - can serve for photography.
There is a Planapo 63X 1.4 objective - fantastic. Oil Immersion. Use with or without coverslip. Hopefully not delaminated.
There is a Plan achromat 100X 1.25 objective - good. Oil Immersion. Use with or without coverslip. Hopefully not delaminated.
There is an achromat 100X 1.25 objective - acceptable. Oil Immersion. Probably, use with a 0.17mm thick coverslip. Hopefully not delaminated.
There is a 40X0.65 objective - good. Use without coverslip. Hopefully not delaminated.
The 40X0.65 on the nosepiece is probably one marked with 0.17 - for use with coverslip.

One last suggestion before bedtime - do not touch the optics with anything, certainly not alcohol. Brush/blow away all dust first. Then a damp Qtip or kimwipe, very sparingly. More details later if you are interested.

IF and only IF any of the glass surfaces seems stained or dirty, clean it first by blowing clean air, wipe with a very soft brush (those for makeup removal are fine), then breath on the glass to humidify it, then wipe (once; not rub) with a Kimwipe or lens tissue. Very stubborn spots/stains can be removed with a Kimwipe saturated with the solvent isopropyl alcohol (IPA), or with petrol ether, preferably NOT ethanol. Use the the solvent sparingly - a tiny drop on the tissue.
The black enamel surfaces should be cleaned with a damp cloth. Again try to avoid solvents.
Hardened old oil or grease must be removed with a solvent, but again, the minimum.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#24 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:48 am

The appropriate manual is 40-115 III - Zeiss Winkel GFL
Downloadable from Geocities and other places.
Another document is Zeiss Optical Systems
from the Zeiss archives.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#25 Post by Adam Long » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:34 am

Agreed, what a great deal. This is one of the most fun parts of buying old microscopes, the surprises that you get in the extras!
There is a Planapo 63X 1.4 objective - fantastic. Oil Immersion. Use with or without coverslip. Hopefully not delaminated.
If the optics are good, this one is probably worth the €200 on it's own!

Of the eyepieces - it looks like the 4 newer all-black ones in the centre, the right pair are 10x/18 and the left possibly 12.5x/18 or even 12.5x/20? These are all very good, and much more modern than the scope. With that choice I would use the 12.5x as my primary pair. You could definitely sell some of the others, I doubt the C8x will see much use unless you want an all-1960s look.

However these are prone to delamination - at least mine were - hold them up to some light and inspect the periphery of the interior glass from both sides at a slight angle. It should be completely clear, but you may see some irregular curved shapes or rainbow colours like oil on water. If so they can often be fixed by unscrewing and bathing the elements in immersion oil for a few days. I think the big triplets are symmetrical but even so best to mark them so they go back in the same way up. See here: viewtopic.php?p=109241#p109241

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#26 Post by imkap » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:09 pm

Hi, I've disassembled and cleaned all the optics last night, used no solvent just a damp cloth. There are 7 delaminated oculars, among them 3 wf kpl x10. Fortunately optics on one of them seems completely clean and one is just a bit delaminated on the edge, barely noticeable while using it so I have a pair... Others seem like new, I have more than enough 8,10 and 12.5. As for the objectives I can't see any optical problems, not 100% sure as I am a newbie, but ignorance is bliss in this particular case... I'm happy with the views. :mrgreen:

I also found Zeiss Winkel 2.5 objective, it's small sized so at first I thought it was a broken ocular or something...

Everything works great, although the course focus is a bit stiff. Not sure should I fiddle with it, tonight I'll disassemble the condenser and light glass below. Both of iris(es? ) work, but seem to need too much force, I think they need some cleaning and greasing... Not sure what kind of grease to use for iris, wd40?

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#27 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:23 pm

imkap wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:09 pm
... There are 7 delaminated oculars, among them 3 wf kpl x10. Fortunately optics on one of them seems completely clean and one is just a bit delaminated on the edge, barely noticeable while using it so I have a pair... Others seem like new, I have more than enough 8,10 and 12.5.

So typical of the Zeiss eyepieces. MicroBob and others have succeeded to overcome the delamination, using immersion oil, gentle heat etc. I failed... but for viewing, delamination is not SO harmful.
I also found Zeiss Winkel 2.5 objective, it's small sized so at first I thought it was a broken ocular or something...
It is short and its working distance is large - anyway, it will be fairly parfocal with the other objectives. To use the 2.5x, it is better to take out the condenser.
Everything works great, although the course focus is a bit stiff. Not sure should I fiddle with it, tonight I'll disassemble the condenser and light glass below. Both of iris(es? ) work, but seem to need too much force, I think they need some cleaning and greasing... Not sure what kind of grease to use for iris, wd40?
There is an inner ring, between the left focus knob (left when facing the field aperture), that is used to tighten the focus mechanism. Turn it by hand ONLY. Engraved on the stand near the ring are the directions of rotation (to tighten or release).
Irises should be easy to open and close with two fingers and no force at all. DO NOT use any oil on them. Just clean with petrol ether and dry with a lintless tissue. There is a thread on thorough dismantling and cleaning of the field aperture - as a last resort.
Do not use WD40 on the apertures.

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#28 Post by ImperatorRex » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:35 pm

In most cases it is not really the iris itself that sticks, so procedure outlined by Hobbyst46 will work. It is usually the grease at the inner diameter of the metal ring and the surfaces that causes the issue.
If it really does not help, here is a nice and detailed instruction to disassemble the iris. Sometimes it needs some nerves until it is re-assembled :-)

https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=9565.0

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#29 Post by imkap » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:24 pm

I understand thanks for the great tips. I'll get some petroleum ether and clean the iris I think it should help. I was afraid not to break it as it was too stiff.

I've already tried the knob on the focuser, but it didn't make any difference. I think this scope has been looked after while used, but probably not used for some time, collecting dust. So probably it would benefit from thorough cleaning, so I'll do it in sometime, no hurry... Now it's working great, I just think that in a long run it's probably better to keep the gear grease in good shape...

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Re: Buying a microscope in EU

#30 Post by imkap » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:16 am

What kind of lubricant should I use for the stage and other surfaces that rub against each other? Not sure how they are called in English ;)

I've read on the forum that I can use some lithium grease for that application and dampening grease (which I'm not sure I'll find locally) for the gears... I won't be touching the focusing mechanism at least for now. I understand I should thoroughly clean old grease before using the new one. Please give some tips about this, so I can be sure what to buy...

Thanks for everything

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