Optical quality on cheap scopes

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devi
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Optical quality on cheap scopes

#1 Post by devi » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:43 am

I'm a complete beginner and have been researching a little before taking the plunge. Obviously I don't know what the hobby will turn into for myself, and so I don't want to invest a lot of money. But at the same time I don't want to buy something that I'll regret.

So, given the recommendation for the Swift SW350T at a price point of £220 (I'm in the UK), I found some cheaper, apparently comparable scopes on Amazon.
This is clearly a gamble (it seems there's been a flood of poor quality things coming from China, especially in the electronics area).

Apologies if direct links aren't allowed.
The example I found that appears comparable (by features) is https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001NL9UNS/ ... Z3PDA1X1QI, but is half the price.
Really, I'm wondering what sort of quality differences I would see between the two.
Is there a real world difference at this beginner level, or is there an element of "optic snobbery" in advice?

Thanks!

Alexander
Posts: 402
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:10 pm

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#2 Post by Alexander » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:38 am

Swift, Bresser, Amscope, Euromex and all the likes are all made in China. There is very little difference in quality on the same level.

The Bresser Biolux you linked is not comparable in features with the Swift 350T but a significant step down. The Biolux lacks a condenser while the 350T is a properly equipped microscope with condenser. This alone overcompensates the difference in price. There are other differences between the two.

devi
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Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#3 Post by devi » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:15 pm

You're absolutely right of course! I am still learning I guess.
I appreciate that there may be other significate differences that I've not spotted as well, but broadly speaking how much of a difference does the compressor make? And if there are significant differences in the optics, what sort of quality difference are we talking about?

I appreciate that this is difficult to answer without knowing the subject or probably a whole load of other things.
If we assume that I'm talking about the quality at 40x optical, are talking a real obvious jump, or is the quality difference more subtle than that when it comes to this sort of price range?

apochronaut
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Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#4 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:32 pm

Microscopes arrive into the marketplace pitched into categories by the manufacturers. Toy, hobby/ scholastic, college/university level scholastic, small lab,lab, reeearch. Those are the general categories with price categories matching. In each category there are surprises. One or two microscopes that rise above competing scopes at a similar price point or one in a better class that is priced lower.
Here are a few things to look for.
Optics. Any microscope above a toy grade will be at least achromat. Better systems are semi-plan and even better are plan, denoting lower levels of curvature of field. Those improvements cost a lot and for some users are worth the cost but for general hobbyists viewing prepared , wet or thicker mounts it might not be worth it. What is worth it, is physical precision. Cheaper objectives, in addition to having curvature of field, often are less well centered which can be annoying at higher magnifications.
Condenser. A condenser is not necessary at low magnifications. It begins to be necessary with a 20X objective or around .40 N.A. Any objective will still work but any of 20X and up will have better resolution and contrast with a condenser. The condenser need not have vertical adjustment but that facility allows for greater flexibility in the adjustment and the fitting of masks and filters.
Weight. If an instrument is unusually light it has a lot of undersized and plastic components.This makes it cheaper to produce and ship but it will be disposible. Chinese microscopes are notoriously difficult to repair due to the fact that the system is set up to sell new ones. Buying one that is an older proven design with a degree of known durability helps. Some aren't even heavy enough to be good doorstops.
Focusing. Focusing is a high wear point on microscopes. A light microscope with coaxial focusing is a red flag. The focusing mechanism will be an early fail point and more often than not be irrepairable : cerainly not at any reasonable cost. I have had to fabricate better parts for some of them and did not charge anywhere near the required cost, otherwise they wouldn't have been repaired.
Illumination. Led is all the rage but it is also really cheap to engineer a good system and build it into an inexpensive microscope , so many cheaper microscopes have led. Even higher end professional microscopes made by the so-called big 4 offer it as an option but those systems are highly engineered and represent well over $1000.00 of the value of the instrument. Cheaper led systems are more monochromatic than halogen systems and in general provide even pure light but at a compromise in contrast. Having led is therefore not necessarily such a generous offer. It is just easy to market. If there is an equivalent priced microscope with halogen, it might be a better deal, especially if other features stack up and the halogen system can be evaluated to be a good one.

Don't buy style. Buy substance.

Not all inexpensive microscopes are Chinese. India has a long tradition of microscope mfg., having both the British and Germans to thank for helping to establish the industry.
India is a more traditional country than modern China, less automated with lots of hands on labour available. Their designs are older with less plastic, high quality machining and generally more weight to an instrument than an equivalent Chinese product. They produce both semi-plan and plan optics but do not charge such a premium for them. Almost all instruments are 20 watt halogen, 4 objective but despite the extra build and weight, most are shipped free by Fedex.

Swift 380T https://swiftoptical.com/products/sw380t plus shipping
Radical https://www.ebay.com/itm/163897106971?h ... Sw37tV9Bve note free shipping and semi-plan optics
Radical https://www.ebay.com/itm/163566331889?h ... SwSudcV99Z note free shipping and plan optics.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#5 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:34 pm

Microscopes arrive into the marketplace pitched into categories by the manufacturers. Toy, hobby/ scholastic, college/university level scholastic, small lab,lab, reeearch. Those are the general categories with price categories matching. In each category there are surprises. One or two microscopes that rise above competing scopes at a similar price point or one in a better class that is priced lower.
Here are a few things to look for.
Optics. Any microscope above a toy grade will be at least achromat. Better systems are semi-plan and even better are plan, denoting lower levels of curvature of field. Those improvements cost a lot and for some users are worth the cost but for general hobbyists viewing prepared , wet or thicker mounts it might not be worth it. What is worth it, is physical precision. Cheaper objectives, in addition to having curvature of field, often are less well centered which can be annoying at higher magnifications.
Condenser. A condenser is not necessary at low magnifications. It begins to be necessary with a 20X objective or around .40 N.A. Any objective will still work but any of 20X and up will have better resolution and contrast with a condenser. The condenser need not have vertical adjustment but that facility allows for greater flexibility in the adjustment and the fitting of masks and filters.
Weight. If an instrument is unusually light it has a lot of undersized and plastic components.This makes it cheaper to produce and ship but it will be disposible. Chinese microscopes are notoriously difficult to repair due to the fact that the system is set up to sell new ones. Buying one that is an older proven design with a degree of known durability helps. Some aren't even heavy enough to be good doorstops.
Focusing. Focusing is a high wear point on microscopes. A light microscope with coaxial focusing is a red flag. The focusing mechanism will be an early fail point and more often than not be irrepairable : cerainly not at any reasonable cost. I have had to fabricate better parts for some of them and did not charge anywhere near the required cost, otherwise they wouldn't have been repaired.
Illumination. Led is all the rage but it is also really cheap to engineer a good system and build it into an inexpensive microscope , so many cheaper microscopes have led. Even higher end professional microscopes made by the so-called big 4 offer it as an option but those systems are highly engineered and represent well over $1000.00 of the value of the instrument. Cheaper led systems are more monochromatic than halogen systems and in general provide even pure light but at a compromise in contrast. Having led is therefore not necessarily such a generous offer. It is just easy to market. If there is an equivalent priced microscope with halogen, it might be a better deal, especially if other features stack up and the halogen system can be evaluated to be a good one.

Don't buy style. Buy substance.

Not all inexpensive microscopes are Chinese. India has a long tradition of microscope mfg., having both the British and Germans to thank for helping to establish the industry.
India is a more traditional country than modern China, less automated with lots of hands on labour available. Their designs are older with less plastic, high quality machining and generally more weight to an instrument than an equivalent Chinese product. Some designs appear to be older heavier discontinued stands from China. Models that became too expensive to produce in China at a low enough price. They produce both semi-plan and plan optics but do not charge such a premium for them. Almost all instruments are 20 watt halogen, 4 objective but despite the extra build and weight, most are shipped free by Fedex.

Swift 380T https://swiftoptical.com/products/sw380t plus shipping
Radical RMH-4T https://www.ebay.com/itm/163897106971?h ... Sw37tV9Bve note free shipping and semi-plan optics 10 YEAR WARRANTY.
Radical RXL4TP https://www.ebay.com/itm/163566331889?h ... SwSudcV99Z note free shipping and plan optics.led.

devi
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:29 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#6 Post by devi » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:52 am

Thank you for such a detailed reply, I really appreciate it.
A quick search and I've found a UK supplier for the RMH-4T at a better price point than the Swift I was looking at, so that in itself could be a huge win for me.
I'll do a bunch more reading now that I have some specific things to learn about.

Slightly nervous of ordering on ebay having been burned a few times in the past.

dtsh
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Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 6:06 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#7 Post by dtsh » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:17 pm

devi wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:52 am
Slightly nervous of ordering on ebay having been burned a few times in the past.
It helps to have a firm understanding of what "new", "used", and "for parts/not working" means and being able to have eBay at your back. A lot of sellers seem to believe (or want you to believe) that "used" means it might be missing parts, things might be broken, stuck, or damaged and will make statements disavowing any responsibility. It works for them a lot of times as the buyer often doesn't know/understand that to eBay, "used" means in working order. It can have wear or cosmetic damage, but if it doesn't work it's not "used" it's "for parts/not working" and will back the buyer.

apochronaut
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Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#8 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:20 pm

Buying USED items on ebay presents risks which are easily overcome with careful reading of the listing and observance of ebay's policies. However, ebay , like other on-line platforms has many dealers and purveyors of new products. Those merchants must follow the same ebay rules but are free to enhance buying security, as long as there is no conflict with ebay's rules. For instance offering free shipping, warranties etc.
I would have thought that it was evident that the two microscopes from India are brand new and warrantied. Ebay's involvement should in no way affect that.

I have bought from Radical a couple of times and I know others who also have. My experience was good, actually better than good. Here is why. They had listed a conflicting listing for a 40X infinity corrected objective. The listing was for a 40X .65 planachro but the picture was of a 40X .75 PlanF with the price being that for a planachro: almost 1/3 that for the PlanF. It was clearly a mistake but I enquired which they were actually selling and pointed out the discrepancy. The answer was ; which one would you prefer to which I replied with the obvious answer. They sent the PlanF and honoured the price and free shipping from India. It arrived in 5 days to my door, no entry fees, duty or taxes. If I were to buy something from Oswego N.Y. U.S.A. , which depending on the weather, I can sometimes see from my house, it will take over 2 weeks to get here and if ebay global shipping is used , will also include entry fees, 13 1/2 % sales tax and possibly duty. Almost no one ships free from the U.S. to Canada : they don't even deduct the value when they offer free domestic shipping from the shipping to Canada.

AntoniScott
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Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:54 pm

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#9 Post by AntoniScott » Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:59 am

Regarding optical quality, the field is wide open. Interestingly, the optical quality is not always linked to the cost of the objectives as I found out.
When I decided to "upgrade" and get serious about my microscopes, I purchased one of those impressive looking scopes from the California based China importer. The optical quality was middle of the road, less than I expected. My next scope was a used Bristoline (probably 1970's - 1980's vintage). The image quality was far more impressive than the previous scope. Since the objective lengths were considered the "short" design of yesteryear, getting additional objectives ( like a 20x or a 60x) were not available from Bristoline. I was able to get a 20x short objective from India which was excellent optical quality. I obtained a used 60x Bausch and Lomb short design that was excellent image quality also.
I also purchased a newer Olympus scope with the longer length objectives. I obtained a 20x Olympus which was excellent and a 60x K-E-H which was less than I expected.

devi
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:29 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#10 Post by devi » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:26 am

Thanks all, for the useful comments and information!

@apochronaut - I've been looking at the RMH-4T that you recommended and it looks very close to the entry level I'm wanting. I note that they also have the RMH-4B, which from the information on the respective pages doesn't appear to be different other than the trinocular/binocular aspect. I don't feel like I need the trinocular feature, so I wonder if the cost saving makes sense in this case?

apochronaut
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Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#11 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:22 pm

Many microscopes are offered in a binocular or trinocular version. With that microscope this is also the case. The binocular head is a different design but it will give the same performance. The f.o.v. on that microscope will be 18 f.n.. Translated a bit, that means 1800 microns across at 100X magnification.
Note as well that it has separate coarse and fine focus controls clustered low. Most modern microscopes have coaxial controls but the separate controls are really just as convenient and likely to be built sturdier, since it is an older design with two separate mechanisms. In fact they make a point that they use brass gears. It is an older stronger design than a new Chinese design available on a microscope of the same price.
I would message through ebay and ask that they could also provide you with several spare bulbs as well. They may well just throw them in. The bulbs last about 200 hours but when mounted in situ can be subject to standing waves and vibration during transit, which might limit the life of the original bulb or possibly break the filament altogether.

There is a list of optional accesories below the specification list. Note that 15X eyepieces are included as an option, not in the main package. Of the accessories, if it is not too expensive I would consider the hardwood case. It is a rare offering in this day and age and it is nice to pack your microscope away in one when not being used. India is definitely old school compared to China!

marcel_
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:27 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#12 Post by marcel_ » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:55 pm

I have a Bresser Biolux AL (this is identical to the one you linked), and an Amscope t490b. I am quite new as well in microscopy, so I can only compare these two.

I can assure you that both are giving you really nice results, and are absolutely fine in handling. They feel both well made. But there are some big differences:

1) The size difference is hughe: the Amscope is one and a half times bigger and heavier! This also means it feels really solid. The Biolux is tiny and everything is lightweigt so it also means it has some 'play' in the mechanical table for instance.
2) The Amscope gives better optical results. The quality of the optics and thus the observed image is definitely better. I literally swapped the specimen back and forth and noticed it quite well.
3) The Biolux does not have a condensor and filter holder. This makes it limited in terms of what you can do with adjusting the contrast and field of depth, and on top of that: not having a filter holder is a big miss: you eventually want to play around with darkfield and oblique filter settings. Something I just found out and is really nice to play around with. The biolux has a ring with colors and different diafragma sizes, but it is completely useless. It does not add anything.
4) the objectives on the Biolux are not the standard 160 so you cannot easily change them, which is eventually something you would like to experiment with maybe.

I am thinking of adding a condensor/filter holder myself to the Biolux as a way to 'mod' it towards a better version. I like the fact that you can easily bring it along (on holiday for instance), since it is such a nice small microscope.

devi
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:29 am

Re: Optical quality on cheap scopes

#13 Post by devi » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:24 pm

Thanks apochronaut for the usual detailed response.
Also thanks marcel_. It's useful to know as much as I can about as many variations of opinion as is reasonable. At the right time I'll make the call based on what I've learned and read from others and make an informed decision of sorts.
I feel like I'm nearly there. Just waiting for a combination of the right gut feel and pay day!

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