Light Source Recommendations?

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J_WISC
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Light Source Recommendations?

#1 Post by J_WISC » Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:09 am

Hello. I’ve acquired several antique or vintage microscopes dependent on mirrors for lighting. I’m tempted to buy an a an adjustable LED plate from AmScope, but not ready to gamble $150. Does anyone have an adjustable LED plate? Does it work? Are there other recommendations? Thank you for your time and help.

PeteM
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#2 Post by PeteM » Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:34 pm

You might want to post an image or link for the proposed LED source to get an accurate response?

I've put some cheap mirror-replacement LEDs on cheap student microscopes and they work well enough for that quality scope. These have a stem to fit where the mirror goes.

If you hope to lamp up several mirror-bearing scopes for personal use, you might just want to get a single external source (parallel beam, even illumination, dimmable) and keep the mirrors.

If you're talking about a stereo microscope with a mirror in the base, there's a LED puck that works pretty well for that. A thread is here somewhere on that topic.

J_WISC
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#3 Post by J_WISC » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:28 pm

Here’s a link to the product I mentioned:

https://amscope.com/products/led-sp

The idea is to move it from scope to scope when needed. This is for compound microscopes, not stereoscopes. And I was hoping for a puck-like device due to limited work space. I’d just pull the mirror out and put the LED light under the condenser.

I’ve already tried other lights directed at mirror, but not a proper light. Can you recommend an affordable light for this?

Thank you for your help.

J_WISC
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#4 Post by J_WISC » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:32 pm

Oh. I tried to find a thread about this before posting the question, the the search terms … light illuminator et cetera apparently overwhelm the system. Too many hits. Sorry. I usually good at searches, finding right words, but just couldn’t figure this one out. 🫠

LouiseScot
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#5 Post by LouiseScot » Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:32 pm

Why not just use an adjustable focus LED torch? Would be a cheap solution. Or, if you can diy/solder you can get a 3W star warm white LED and connect it to a variable power supply (or a 6V 2A one) plus a motor controller e.g.:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131345637382
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363872633223 ... SwTQliqFNj
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275254025141 ... BMmPzm_Mtg

Louise

Edit: a 1W LED would probably be adequate :)
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Chas
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#6 Post by Chas » Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:26 pm

An 'Ulanzi VL49' video light is not a bad soft/diffuse light source ; it has 5 brightness settings; the weakest one is a bit too bright for comfortable viewing through a monocular with say an x4 objective and x6 eyepeice, without a filter. But at higher magnifications the lowest brightness setting is comfortable.
On a charge it will last quite a few hours (6?) on it lowest output.
I have put a small pencil mark in the centre of its diffuser to help focus the condenser.
On amazon UK it costs about £22 sterling.

Quite a few oldish microscopes expect the light source to be around 8 or 10 inches from the condenser, so to achieve this I have the light mounted on 'Smallrig 5 inch magic arm with superclamp', clamping it all to the microscope's drawtube and pointing the videolight towards the mirror.
The microscope and light can be moved around from table to table and tilted without upsetting the lighting.

PeteM
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#7 Post by PeteM » Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:17 pm

There are likely better and cheaper options than that AmScope listing.

In addition to the above suggestions, another option would be a LED headlamp stripped of the headband or a flashlight with a single die and a narrow beam - shining into your mirror from some inches away. Many will have three levels of brightness. Some will be dimmable. You could add a diffuser if needed. The trick will be mounting them. A table top microphone stand with a spring clip works for most flashlights. If you're handy, it's pretty easy to cobble something together with articulating arms.

Old tungsten microscope lamps often had articulating arms that could be salvaged. There were also a number of external microscope lamps that look a bit like miniature theater spotlights. Kind of cool appearance, usable as is, and not too hard to convert to LED.

Hobbyst46
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#8 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:17 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:32 pm
Why not just use an adjustable focus LED torch? Would be a cheap solution. ...
Some of these torches get hot to the touch when turned on for long periods. And get extremely hot if they are on during charging.
Edit: a 1W LED would probably be adequate :)
Agreed.

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#9 Post by LouiseScot » Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:49 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:17 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:32 pm
Why not just use an adjustable focus LED torch? Would be a cheap solution. ...
Some of these torches get hot to the touch when turned on for long periods. And get extremely hot if they are on during charging.
Edit: a 1W LED would probably be adequate :)
Agreed.
I have one of these. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01 ... UTF8&psc=1
Admittedly I don't normally use it as a microscope illumination source but I've never noticed get hot at all. You can continually adjust the beam so that when wide, effective brightness is much lower than when at most narrow. My on
ne isn't rechargeable but the batteries last a long time. Of course, you can get LED table lamps also.

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

apochronaut
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#10 Post by apochronaut » Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:04 pm

It's kind of funny how so many people look at a microscope with a mirror and think it has an inadequate illumination system, when in fact mostly only lousy illumination systems don't use a mirror. If you know of anyone that has a health problem that has been solved through medical research using a microscope, there is a 99% chance that microscope had a mirror.
It is very difficult to have a Köhler ilkumination system without a mirror. A high output older microscope lamp will work perfectly and allow you to angle the microscope while maintaining a properly focused Köhler illumination.

Plate or disc leds that have come my way are composed of an array of emitters with a milky thin diffusion filter. In use I have found that the array can be seen in the field background as an uneven illumination feld. The other problem aside from the absurd cost of a plate illuminator is that the angle of the illumination changes if you tilt the microscope for comfortable viewing. I suppose you could attach it to the stage somehow but that seems like a lot of bother to put in for a mediocre illuminator. I think they are generally a way of transilluminating a stereo microscope where the illumination demands are not that high.

The disc led illuminators that PeteM alluded to are o.k. when inserted into the mirror socket, since they stay perpendicular to the illumination axis when the microscope is tilted.

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#11 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:04 am

The B&L "toaster" and Nikon universal are good old lamps with field lenses and irises. They can be retrofitted with different lamps if you take notice of where the filament should go. The Nikon actually has a helical focus on it.

AO, Tiyoda and lomo made some nice looking lamps too, although I don't have experience with them. I am sure they would work well.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

J_WISC
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#12 Post by J_WISC » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:49 am

Thank you everyone for your helpful replies.

It looks like the consensus is: Acquire a proper external light and use a mirror. I’ve been trying to use a torch (flashlight here) or a head lamp directed at a mirror, but light from the two I’m trying to use is too uneven, even covered by some sort of white material. I think I’ll focus on finding an external light designed for use with a microscope. Or one of those adjustable video lights. Thanks! 🙂

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#13 Post by Dubious » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:43 am

Be aware that many dimmable LED lamps use pulse width modulation (PWM) to dim the light, and that if the PWM frequency is too low it can cause eyestrain/headaches for some people. If you go the LED route, you should use a lamp that is voltage controlled or that uses a very high PWM frequency. This is the same issue that used to afflict a lot of LCD monitors with LED backlighting (now, most but not all have moved away from PWM).

Chas
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#14 Post by Chas » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 am

Something much better than having a small-sized light source pointing directly at the mirror is to put a piece of paper or other white material on top of the mirror and then illuminate that with a desk light /torch.
There was a website 'out there somewhere' where someone went into great detail into how to make a nice paper circle to mount onto microscope mirrors.
I was lucky to find some finely-textured white foam material to rest on the mirror (paper is a bit flimsy and slides off at the most inconvenient moment).
Focus the condenser on the grain of the material and then just tweak it slightly out of focus.
The video-light is a step forward though .. it doesnt need the arm and clamp (and microscopes with angled heads wont dont suit the clamp) .. the video light will mount in the stands that come with flash guns, which can also be bought on their own.

I have not got on well with the lights that mount under the condenser (in place of the mirror) not least because the prong sizes of the mirrors varied between manufactures (They may be a standard size now, but they werent in the past). and as Dubious mentions some of them strobe [ notably with a camera's LiveView, if you are thinking of taking photos].
Last edited by Chas on Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

apochronaut
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#15 Post by apochronaut » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:35 am

The mirrors on horseshoe microscopes were almost always double sided. The plano side was for use with lower magnification objectives and had a reflecting surface that could accept a beam to illuminate a field of such and such, the field required to cover that of the lowest power objective used with the eyepiece supplied with the microscope. An aux. condenser lens could usually be added for very low magnification objectives.
The concave side concentrated the beam for use with higher power objectives.

Usually, if an oil immersion objective were to be used a lamp of around 25 watts would suffice. Lamps varied depending on application, with some having field irises and collimated beams. The systems are no different than what is engineered into a fixed base illumination system in a modern microscope, just that whatever grade of illuminator the model has is incorporated into the base.

Setting up a horseshoe based stand takes about 2 minutes once one has experimented a little with various lamp distances , mirror angles and condenser apertures. With better lamps you adjust for Köhler. The AO model 735 research illuminator is one such , was widely used and shows up on ebay regularly. Iris, threaded pitch adjustment, rack and pinion focus and some had a filter tray. All mfg. had similar lamps, it's just that that the 735 seems to have either out sold all of them combined or was indestructable . Likely both. For those inclined, probably not too hard to convert to a high output led point source. Lots of heat sink and room for a driver and pot.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Optic ... ect=mobile.
That one is a little pricey but you get the idea.

Another option is an ortho illuminator. I am not sure who made those but I have seen ones from Baker, Leitz and AO. Likely Reichert too but it would have just been a rebadged AO, who made a lot of electrics for Reichert, shipping them over with the Reichert brand on them.
Orthos, basically foreshadowed what the integrated microscope resarch stand was to become, essentially turning a horseshoe stand into a full on lab or research microscope with a fixed research grade illuminator. The microscope fits on to the illuminator and is permanently attached to it! so the illumination beam is permanently adjusted : like a modern
microscope with an illuminator housing fitted in the back. Like a rear illuminated stand, the footprint is a little larger than an average lab scope but the illumination results are superior. Horror of horrors though, they have a mirror inside!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Americ ... ect=mobile. Again more than one might get one for but they are very nice to use.

For quite a few years, I have used a Spencer #5 on an ortho, fitted with a fine focus 1.4 N.A. achromat aplanat condenser and 4 apochromats going through the default 15X eyepieces normally used with apochromats. 150X, 300X, 660X and 1350X plus 52.5X if I want to use the compatible close w.d. 3.5X scanning objective. Just a little shy in the f.o.v. department at around 15mm but otherwise stunning as apos usually are. You can put an entire system together for what one modern apo objective would cost on a deal.

Chas
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#16 Post by Chas » Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:56 am

As a historical curiosity; here is a Baker mirror that has an opalescent glass surface in place of its concave mirror :
Baker opal glass mirror.jpg
Baker opal glass mirror.jpg (102.18 KiB) Viewed 5417 times


And here is a pic of the video light on one of the little flash gun stands, I mentioned earlier (and sitting on top of an image of what might be its previous incarnation ):
Ulanzi on flash gun stand 800.jpg
Ulanzi on flash gun stand 800.jpg (87.24 KiB) Viewed 5417 times

Apochronaut... my understanding was that one used the concave mirror surface, in lieu of the condenser, for low magnification (??)

apochronaut
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Re: Light Source Recommendations

#17 Post by apochronaut » Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:56 pm

Yes. It works beautifully, especially with the sky, where N.A. means Not Applicable. The best systems had the mirror not in a socket but on a sliding rail, so the concave mirror could be focused and control the diameter of field coverage or intensity of the illumination with thus, a narrower field.

Baker was a very innovative company. They had an Interference microscope in the 50's.
Those illuminators that display a broad field illumination source harken back to the days before the electric filament was commonly used as an illumination source so Köhler illumination was not a consideration. It gets forgotten that as valuable as Köhler illumination is, it is an afterthought designed as just a technique to overcome the deficiencies of an inadequate point source of light with controlled blurring , as evenly as possible with collimated optics.

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White Glass Reflector

#18 Post by J_WISC » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:20 am

Now I’m intrigued by the white glass reflector. A friend says opalescent glass isn’t 100% opaque. Do you happen to know if it is essentially 100% opaque white glass? Or is there a necessary silver coat on the backside?

Chas
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#19 Post by Chas » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:26 pm

J_WISC, I cannot detect a silvering behind it.
It has a look to it that is a bit like low-fat/skimmed milk .... a bit like the material that made the incident light 'cone' that went on a Weston light meter.
Maybe its a bit like some translucent plastics - thinking nylon rod, but whiter.
It is not like a white pottery glaze.

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#20 Post by zzffnn » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:01 am

Alternatively, here is a $25 LED option from Amazon USA. Just remove that mirror and use wax paper under condenser to diffuse it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B092RJ9TPV/?c ... _lig_dp_it

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#21 Post by SWmicro » Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:26 am

J_WISC wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:09 am
dependent on mirrors for lighting.
Does anyone have an adjustable LED plate?
Hi, I'm a bit late on parade, sorry! :)

If you are up for some DIY there are lots of cheap (a few $ only) flat panel led arrays on ebay. (search - led cob car panel)
Used below a diffuser a 48chip array works for me.
The one on the right is advertised as 10w (or more) which proved to be way more than I needed ! (and at that kind of power would need a heatsink)

The one on the left is designed for automobile (interior light) use and is convenient for 12v (even 13.8v !) voltage driven operation, they incorporate a current limiting resistor. (other leds need pulse-width or current-source control)
Also in the picture is a translucent plastic diffuser, that I happened to have in the 'might be useful' box :)
I have read that some people have had success with layers of milk-bottle or other HDPE stuff.

2nd pic shows it below the filter holder below the condenser, mirror removed,
the thermal conductive sticky pad that it came with is still in place but is not in use. (heat-sink might be needed at 13.8v ? but not at my 12v)

Hobbyst46 did something similar here: viewtopic.php?t=6812

p1.jpg
p1.jpg (111.79 KiB) Viewed 5191 times
panel.jpg
panel.jpg (59.53 KiB) Viewed 5191 times

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imkap
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#22 Post by imkap » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:04 am

I measured the one on the right it works at 7W approx. You shouldn't use it with 12V but a bit less... Use a 1 Ohm resistor on the +, or connect 2 resistors in parallel for 0.5 Ohm...

Similar Cree products are more efficient and have a better light but cost more

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#23 Post by J_WISC » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:10 pm

Thank you for references to bulb types, watts, voltage. One problem I've encountered while trying to improvise is the absence of specs for light sources. How much light is too much or too little? And specs for microscopes for common folk don't include light source lumens. So the flashlight and headlamp I'm trying to use are probably troublesome because they're just too intense and there's no means to dial the light down.

Chas
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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#24 Post by Chas » Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:04 pm

Too bright a light is awful !! :(
If it is any measure of things; Theodore Stepanides thought that an old-fashioned oil lamp was good. (as was a 60W Opal bulb)
See (~page 70 on):
https://archive.org/details/MicroscopeP ... 9/mode/2up

Have you tried a bit of paper on the mirror and lighting that up with your torch? ... by moving the torch further or nearer the paper you ought to be able adjust the brightness a bit.
zzfn's suggestion of putting a bit of tracing/ wax paper in or under the condenser works well to diminish the nastiness from LED torches.
A diffuse light is much easier on the eye ;)

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#25 Post by SWmicro » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:05 am

Chas wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:04 pm
Theodore Stepanides thought that an old-fashioned oil lamp was good. (as was a 60W Opal bulb)
See (~page 70 on):
https://archive.org/details/MicroscopeP ... 9/mode/2up
Thank you, nice find.
Interesting that as recently as 1947 he is rating an oil flame better than opal electric, both being better than frosted electric.
I wonder how he would rate the surface of an HDPE plastic diffuser against them :) ?
I see some more experiments in my future, I'll try not to burn the house down !

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#26 Post by J_WISC » Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:59 am

Five stars for white paper covering the mirror! This is working far better than an earlier effort to cover the LED light with translucent plastic. I must learn to think outside the box.

Once again, thank you for your help. You’re all great. It’s nice to encounter helpful people eager to share their knowledge, and so tolerant of terribly naive people.

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#27 Post by Chas » Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:49 am

J_WISC I am afraid that there is one more thing that you ought to do, to avoid unnecessary disappointment:

You need to clean all of the surfaces of one of your eyepieces.

It is not so much black bits but the general white foggy deposit on the lens surfaces. Its hard to pick this up without shining a bright light through the eyepiece and looking obliquely at the lenses.
[I use the light on the back of a mobile phone as it is quite intense, but I guess any LED type thing would do].

There are two lenses in them; the one at the top that is fixed into the top bezel, the second one, at the bottom, may not be mounted but just held in place by the knurled ring.
The procedure is
Make a mark on the top of the outer tube (so that you know, later, which end is the top)
Unscrew the bezels* being aware that the bottom lens might tumble out of the knurled ring ... so do it close to a piece of paper on the table ( this lens is not symetrically shaped, so note the curvatures ... However, 9 times out 10 the flatter side is innermost).
clean all the surfaces with lens tissue /cleaner/ whatever and then reassemble it.
Choose an ~x6 or x10 lens to start with, not one of the extreme ones (x4 or x20)

The mark you have made on the outside of the tube will also tell you which of your eyepieces you have cleaned !




*If the bezels dont unscrew get some cigarette lighter fluid..the sort of stuff that would go into a Zippo lighter.. and put a drop on the joint and leave it 10 or 20 minutes (the fluid is distilled, so it leaves little or no oily residue).

Re. the question about light source brightness, I found this:
Light intensities from Beck 800.jpg
Light intensities from Beck 800.jpg (65.46 KiB) Viewed 4982 times
...101 years out of date ;-)

A pic of an eyepiece lit up by a mobile phone light (the outer surface had been cleaned ..apart from the cotton-bud fluff):
Fogging inside an eyepiece using phone light.jpg
Fogging inside an eyepiece using phone light.jpg (40.07 KiB) Viewed 4812 times
Last edited by Chas on Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:33 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#28 Post by Chas » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:44 pm

SW_micro ... wow, those panels are cheap !! :-)
Interesting that as recently as 1947 he is rating an oil flame better than opal electric, both being better than frosted electric.
Yes, very interesting, and he also had a 'Pointolite' lamp ( containing a white-hot tungsten ball) which ought to be the ultimate, structureless, point light source.
( and he had the collimating optics and variable density neutral-tint wedge filter that were needed to go with it)
Info about the 'Pointolite' bulb: http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec%20Sheets ... 0150AC.htm

It is a shame that the oil lamps designed for microscopes fetch so much money, I would love to try one out!
[Actually its a good thing as my desk is a permanent fire hazard even without a parafin lamp ;-) ]

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#29 Post by SWmicro » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:40 am

J_WISC wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:10 pm
they're just too intense and there's no means to dial the light down.
That is an advantage of the diy I proposed, it can be achieved by simply** including an extra series resistor to dim (or slightly increase the voltage supply to brighten). The little black object on the edge of the 12v panel is in fact such a resistor. In the ones I bought it is a 10 ohm smd, but in recently advertised similar panels they have increased it to 12ohm.
**other more sophisticated methods are available like Constant Current and PWM modules, quite cheap on ebay.
R.jpg
R.jpg (18.66 KiB) Viewed 4909 times
,,,,
Chas wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:44 pm
SW_micro ... wow, those panels are cheap !! :-)
Yes indeed!, that is why I liked them, I'm a cheap-skate :)
Original post balked at $150 for a fully engineered turn-key solution that nodoubt keeps everything in a nice box without wires and bits and hazards all over :) probably with uniform light of unquestioned purity , but heyho I like tinkering and finding out :)
The light from this panel is sufficiently uniform over the central region for my needs, but falls off at the edges of course. I could improve upon that by including supplementary smd leds, but I'm not paid high enough for that lol!
Chas wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:44 pm
oil lamps designed for microscopes
I've only just started looking into them, they appear to be just simple flat-wick air-breathing lamps. Am I missing an expensive bit of design to embrighten them ! or is it just antiquity ?!

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Re: Light Source Recommendations?

#30 Post by J_WISC » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:38 am

The very expensive gadget you are looking for in order to focus lamp light on a mirror is probably a bullseye bench condenser:
19thc-bullseye-bench-condenser-lens_10240_main_size3.jpg
19thc-bullseye-bench-condenser-lens_10240_main_size3.jpg (177.44 KiB) Viewed 4883 times
(image grabbed from https://www.gingertoms.co.uk/en-GB/all- ... vMV4OzMIo8)

I think someone above mentioned bullseye bench condensers here or a different thread.

This would look awesome next to my 1916 Spencer microscope, but I'm thinking there are far better uses for limited funds. (Still, I'll put it at the bottom of my wish list and watch for one someone really really wants to sell one dirt cheap.)

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