full frame dslr on which microscope?

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nikao
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full frame dslr on which microscope?

#1 Post by nikao » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:09 am

Looking to buy a microscope and wanting to do photography with it using my monochrome, fullframe DSLR.
I'm wondering if there are certain microscopes and/or adapters that will even be able to cover the size of the sensor with the image/illumination?
Some vignetting is no problem of course (can correct that), but just wondering if this is something to pay attention to when deciding on a specific microscope.

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imkap
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#2 Post by imkap » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:52 am

I know first hand that Olympus with NFK 2.5x eyepiece projects to FF, NFK 3.3 or more too but with field cropping/bigger magnification. I think Nikon CF 2.5 is also for FF. That's for 160mm tube finite / older optics, for infinity/newer I don't know.

Info about Olympus here:
http://www.alanwood.net/olympus/digital ... scope.html

Some info on Zeiss, never tried this on FF (did with aps-c) , he says it works:
https://microscopyofnature.com/micropho ... -eyepieces

Tom Jones
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#3 Post by Tom Jones » Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:07 pm

Remember, for years, before the advent of CCD and CMOS cameras, film was the only way to record microscopy images. All of the major manufacturers have systems that would project from 35mm up to 4x5. So, yes, you can get systems that cover your 35mm frame. I don't know about the Chinese scopes, but I suspect they're more set up for ccd or cmos video cameras so you would need a third party adapter to make it work.

imkap has mentioned the NFK 2.5x for the Olympus BH-2 series of microscopes and 35mm full frame. The same magnification, 2.5x, but in a PE projection lens is appropriate for the Olympus BX series of infinity microscopes for full frame. I've used this PE 2.5x system with 35mm film, a full frame Canon 5D Mk II, and I'm now moving to a a full frame Canon R5 on my BX-50s. And no, the NFK and PE lenses will not interchange. There is a barrel size difference, and the NFK is corrected where the PE is not.

Other projection lenses are available. The NFK series includes a 1.67x (rare and pricy), 2.5x, 3.3x, 4x, and 5x. The PE series includes a 2x (rare), 2.5x, 3.3x, 4x, and a 5x. Bigger numbers project to bigger frames and result in crops if your sensor or film size is smaller than the lens is designed for.

Be aware too, that if you shoot video, it is highly unlikely your DSLR will use the full sensor for video. Most likely a much smaller area. That tosses in another variable to the mix, so you would want a lower magnification projection lens to fill the frame with the video image with little cropping.

nikao
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#4 Post by nikao » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:45 am

Thanks for the helpful replies!
Maybe a stupid question, but is there always a need for a projection lens? or does this depend on the scope focus system?

Scarodactyl
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#5 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:49 am

Some particular microscope objectives can be set up to cover full frame, but generally whole microscope systems are not designed for that so relay optics are needed.

nikao
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#6 Post by nikao » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:04 pm

I contacted Bresser, and they advice this add-on for the TFM301 scope:
https://www.bresser.de/Mikroskopie/BRES ... nd-4x.html

this should offer the same fov as through the oculair and be able to cover full frame. They do recommend using a filter when I'd be using monochrome.
Just remembered (... ) that I have the DSLR available with and without Bayer layer, so can also do one shot color. Although that one has the IR filter removed, not sure if that proves to be a downside/something to deal with.

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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#7 Post by PeteM » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:19 pm

It sounds like you're hoping for very high resolution? The Bresser adapter looks to be a zoom. Even at that price, zoom relay lenses tend to be of somewhat lower optical quality. Could be the Bresser is the exception, but I'm skeptical.

Three options for a quality microscope you might consider:

1) An Olympus BH2 (BHTU, BHT, BHS) with an Olympus 2.5x relay lens and setup as described above.

2) A Nikon finite equivalent (Labophot, Optiphot, Microphot) with a Nikon 2.5x relay lens. Nikon makes an "F" trinocular head for the Labophot and Optiphot that has a straight shot to the relay lens (no prism below it), which means a couple less lens surfaces to clean. Nikon's "chrome free" optics can be a plus in matching various sensor sizes as well - but the Olympus does as well with full frame since that 2.5x relay lens is available and handles the necessary corrections.

3) Stepping up in budget - a higher priced "infinite" optics microscope with wide field plan fluorite objectives. These will handle almost all corrections in the objectives and might include Olympus BX series, Nikon Eclipse series, Leica DM series available used and some pretty pricey and nearly as good Chinese versions. For these you could image directly (no relay lens) and cover about a 25-26mm image circle. Photo relay lenses are also fairly easily available (2.5x) to cover a larger image circle for the Olympus and Nikon. It's a bit harder to find the bits for Leica - it's a combination of a .32x and an 8x lens. Something like the Bresser unit would likely be available for higher end Chinese scopes. We're talking two (used bargain) to several thousand dollars here, with the used Nikon Eclipse, Olympus BX, or Leica DM offering the better price-performance but more time and care in finding what you want.

It would help to know more about what you plan to image. It could influence the choice of microscopes and how they are equipped.

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imkap
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#8 Post by imkap » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:01 pm

nikao wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:04 pm
I contacted Bresser, and they advice this add-on for the TFM301 scope:
https://www.bresser.de/Mikroskopie/BRES ... nd-4x.html
Quite expensive this thing you linked... I'd go with PeteM's advice, with some patience you'll get what you need.

nikao
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#9 Post by nikao » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:46 pm

PeteM wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:19 pm
It sounds like you're hoping for very high resolution? The Bresser adapter looks to be a zoom. Even at that price, zoom relay lenses tend to be of somewhat lower optical quality. Could be the Bresser is the exception, but I'm skeptical.

Three options for a quality microscope you might consider:

1) An Olympus BH2 (BHTU, BHT, BHS) with an Olympus 2.5x relay lens and setup as described above.

2) A Nikon finite equivalent (Labophot, Optiphot, Microphot) with a Nikon 2.5x relay lens. Nikon makes an "F" trinocular head for the Labophot and Optiphot that has a straight shot to the relay lens (no prism below it), which means a couple less lens surfaces to clean. Nikon's "chrome free" optics can be a plus in matching various sensor sizes as well - but the Olympus does as well with full frame since that 2.5x relay lens is available and handles the necessary corrections.

3) Stepping up in budget - a higher priced "infinite" optics microscope with wide field plan fluorite objectives. These will handle almost all corrections in the objectives and might include Olympus BX series, Nikon Eclipse series, Leica DM series available used and some pretty pricey and nearly as good Chinese versions. For these you could image directly (no relay lens) and cover about a 25-26mm image circle. Photo relay lenses are also fairly easily available (2.5x) to cover a larger image circle for the Olympus and Nikon. It's a bit harder to find the bits for Leica - it's a combination of a .32x and an 8x lens. Something like the Bresser unit would likely be available for higher end Chinese scopes. We're talking two (used bargain) to several thousand dollars here, with the used Nikon Eclipse, Olympus BX, or Leica DM offering the better price-performance but more time and care in finding what you want.

It would help to know more about what you plan to image. It could influence the choice of microscopes and how they are equipped.
Thanks, that's very helpful input!
I'm mostly looking at getting the best out of the (expensive) gear I have lying around already, but of course it needs to make sense. I don't know the numbers by heart, but in terms of resolution my crop sensor might be better. The bigger pixels of the full frame made for more light sensitivity (and dynamic range), but that's less of a concern when you're illuminating a sample of course ;)

In terms of optics in between, I agree and had hoped for a solution without additional glass. On the other hand, I'm used to using coma correctors and reducers (and they can be BIG) so not against adding glass per se.

I'll investigate the suggestions you put forward and all the options some more.

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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#10 Post by Macro_Cosmos » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:35 am

I implore you to calculate the best sampling rates and combine it with the most appropriate magnifications before going further, it will hurt your wallet less.
Reference: https://svi.nl/SamplingDensity

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blekenbleu
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#11 Post by blekenbleu » Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:54 pm

nikao wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:45 am
is there always a need for a projection lens
No, e.g. Nikon CF objectives need no additional corrections,
as is generally also true for microscopes with infinity objections after their tube lens,
but their intermediate image field diameter will be less than wanted
to fill 35mm sensors without vignetting by so-called direct projection.

Cropping microscope images to suit subjects can be fairly painless e.g. using IrfanView,
provided a camera has adequate sensor resolution.
Alternatively, a (1.4x) teleconverter with 35mm camera
could yield sensor-filling images comparable to those from APS-C sensors.

One key challenge for direct projection with DSLRs is
camera lens flange to sensor distance is often too long to get their sensors
at the photo port intermediate image focal plane of many trinocular heads.
One work-around is to remove the head and buy or improvise some adapter
from the microscope arm flange to the camera flange,
probably including a helicoid to adjust for parfocality.
For infinity objectives, that arm flange typically lacks the tube lens
which some microscope heads use for correcting aberrations.
If corrections are not required, then
a 200mm or so camera lens focused at infinity can substitute for tube lens.
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#12 Post by Macro_Cosmos » Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:16 am

Direct projection with an FN 42mm sensor (so-called "full frame") works well for magnifications of 10x and higher. The corners are just acceptable to me.
Forget about it if a fluorescence/any arm is installed, mechanical vignetting occurs.

Direct projection 40x, cx23, oblique, Nikon Z6. I had to do some cropping because there was some mechanical vignetting.
Image

nikao
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Re: full frame dslr on which microscope?

#13 Post by nikao » Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:10 am

oh wow, these are amazing!

I'm, not so concerned about vignetting. Either cropping or correction with bias frames should make it workable.

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