Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

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SanFran77
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Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#1 Post by SanFran77 » Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:01 pm

Hi all! My kids are excited users of the Carson MicroBrite Plus 60x-120x LED Lighted "Pocket Microscope". They use that to explore natural objects found on hikes, such as leaves or bugs. Now, for the next step, I wanted to have a great Stereo MIcroscope at home that offers the older kids a higher magnification than that (and obviously a stereo view) plus also a display type of view (for the youngest who cannot observe differently.

I very much like the idea of Zoom objectives and someone recommended the Amscope sh-2t-c2 which has a 10x eyepiece and a 1-4x zoom. However, with that it seems I get a much lower magnification than what is already in place than with the "pocket microscope"? It seems that either Carson is off with their magnification, or it is unreasonable due to how difficult it is to achieve, or that I am misunderstanding something?

Also, do trinoculars come with their own "eye pieces" or does the camera replace that? So, if I wanted the same magnification through the third port, would the camera need to deliver the "10x" that the eyepieces for the other two ports are bringing?

Thank you!!

mikemarotta
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#2 Post by mikemarotta » Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:33 pm

1. A trinocular is a binocular with a third tube for the camera. You should shop online at AmScope, New York Microscope, etc., and watch Oliver Kim's Microbe Hunter videos on YouTube to fill in your knowledge base.

2. Generally, the handheld "security camera" type microscope you have already gives you and your kids most of what a stereo microscope will deliver, aside from a stable platform and other features of a (quote) "real" microscope. The one you have now is fine for the exploring they and you are doing. (I bought a different brand about 10 years ago.)

3. Your next upgrade would be a compound microscope, monocular, binocular, or trinocular. That said, though, again, the better tutorials all tell you to view at the lowest powers first: 500X does not deliver as much information as you might think. The world is revealed well at 40X to 100X unless you have a special professional need, or that level of hobby engagement.

4. You can take great pictures with a compound microscope and a cellphone.

5. As good as the Carson seems to be, a compound microscope with its additional optical condenser and other features will give you and your family better control over lighting, depth of field, and resolution.

Again, you folk are doing fine. I would not rush to upgrade until you know more about the products and their features. Ask here on Microbe Hunter.
And because you did not ask, allow me to suggest that you consider the books that support your hobby. It really makes a difference when you understand what you are looking at. You can get a lot of recommendations on those, also. Two that seem most popular (and reliable) are these:
Two Recommendations.jpg
Two Recommendations.jpg (81.24 KiB) Viewed 1795 times
The textbook by Murphy appears here on Microbe Hunter often, but, really any similar textbook from Addison-Wesley, Pearson, etc., will do. Go to the library and visit some used bookstores, near a college campus.

Best Regards,
Mike M.
-----------------------------
Michael E. Marotta
Technical Writer

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imkap
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#3 Post by imkap » Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:48 pm

Carson's image looks the same on all magnifications. On a good real zoom you'll be able to resolve more details when you zoom in.
For real 120x on a stereo you need a real good light and more expensive optics. Don't worry about magnification, 40x is more than enough on a stereo microscope.

In US the used market is great, I'm always a bit jealous. I'd go with an used Olympus or Nikon, from the 80s or 90s, or later, depending on the price and condition. They hold their value and are modular, which means that you can add different accessories to them...

Scarodactyl
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#4 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:54 pm

I'm not sure I agree. Stereo microscopes give a true 3d view and much better image quality than the cheaper digital microscopes. It's still a worth addition to the lineup. They are also a lot easier to use than a compound and might be an easier introduction.

A compound microscope is a huge upgrade in magnification and resolution but also less versatile on subjects that can be viewed.

Note digital microscopes quote nominal magnifications that include things like the size of the screen. It is hard to compare them directly to a normal microscope. It would be easier to use a ruler under your digital microscope to measure how wide the field of view is. An entry level stereo microscope at 1x will typically give an 18-20mm field of view, down to 5ish mm at 4x.

Edit: was typing as imkap was typing, agreed as well on the used market though it can be overwhelming if you're new.

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imkap
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#5 Post by imkap » Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:06 pm

I had a Carson and actually is a great piece of a pocket microscope, especially for 20-30$. It is purely optical with a led on the bottom and the best thing is you can lean it on whatever you want and look at it. So I'd go around the house and observe how things look like magnified. That was before we had real microscopes at home. But still it isn't so practical to point a stereo microscope at a wall or whatever you find interesting, so Carson is quite interesting and has it's own 'purpose'..

I once removed a tiny piece of glass from my foot with the help of a Carson
:mrgreen:

SanFran77
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#6 Post by SanFran77 » Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:25 am

1. A trinocular is a binocular with a third tube for the camera. You should shop online at AmScope, New York Microscope, etc., and watch Oliver Kim's Microbe Hunter videos on YouTube to fill in your knowledge base.
I think I did not make myself clear. I knew what a trinocular is, the question should have been: Is the third tube left empty (to be filled with a camera), or does it have it's own eye piece and then the camera comes on top? I am asking because if I have a 10x on a 4x zoom in the stereo, I achieve a 40x magnification through the stereo eyepieces. Now, the 4x stays the same with the trinocular port, tube, but where is the 10x coming from to reach an equal magnification for a picture to be projected on a screen? Does that have to come from the camera or is there a lens in the trinocular?

The reason why I do not want to go for a compound as of yet is that in my perception I need to be able to prepare specimen, so that light can pass through them? Is that a wrong assumption? The stereo microscope would allow solid objects to be observed, albeit at a smaller magnification (which I am fine with).

To all who have written, thank you!

macnmotion
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#7 Post by macnmotion » Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:53 am

When you attach a camera to the trinocular head, you no longer can think about "magnification" the same way you're thinking when multiplying an objective times an eyepiece.

Through the eyepiece, the magnification will always be the same no matter who looks through the eyepiece. If something is 40x enlarged for you, it will also appear 40x enlarged for your children.

Cameras work differently for a couple of reasons. First, the chip size and the amount of the chip being used to capture the image will effect the final result, as will the display device you view the object on. For example, let's say you view a small pebble through the camera and see it projected onto its built-in screen. Sure it will look larger than the real pebble. But if you take the memory card and view the image on your computer screen, that same exact image looks many times larger than it did on the camera screen -- your computer screen is much larger so the image appears much larger. What is important when using a camera is to calculate the Field of View (FOV) captured by the camera. That way, you'll be able to know how large the object is no matter what playback device you view the image on. The best way to calculate the FOV of an objective/camera combination is to use a calibrated slide micrometer -- a slide that has various measurements etched into the glass. When you view that through your camera you can see exactly what your FOV is.

Above when I mentioned "the amount of the chip being used" I'm referring to crop factor. Some cameras, like my DSLR, have a setting that can force the camera to only use some portion of the sensor to capture the image. My camera's crop factor option is 1.5x, meaning that my FOV when I turn on that crop factor is LESS than the FOV without that crop factor on. This essentially enlarges my image of the object. But the object itself doesn't change size, just my ability to have that object fill more of my camera's FOV is affected.

With telescopes, we would calculate the optimum chip size for a certain telescope which would help us decide which camera to buy. I'm not sure if that's done with microscopes, maybe someone here can answer that.

To get back to your original question: The combination of the camera (chip size/crop factor) and objective will determine how much the object you view fills the camera's FOV. Don't think of it as 400x or 100x, nobody will be able to provide you an answer based on that question.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#8 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:28 am

One thing to keep in mind is that your eye has a lens too and it shrinks the image back down. So you might have a 4x objective and a 10x eyepiece for a total 40x magnification, but your eyelens with its short ~17mm focal length shrinks the image back down to fit onto your retina (it is in fact around a 1/10th reduction in this context--this is why the image from a microscope is just a circle in the middle of your vision). Similarly there are camera setups that use a 10x eyepiece, but they have to use another lens above it to demagnify the image to fit on the camera sensor.

Chas
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#9 Post by Chas » Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:50 pm

The reason why I do not want to go for a compound as of yet is that in my perception I need to be able to prepare specimen, so that light can pass through them? Is that a wrong assumption?
Well I would say it was a kind of wrong assumption, if you are thinkng that you need to slice everything:
Water doesn't need slicing, so to see the (pretty dazzling) creatures that live in it you only need to put a drop of the water on a slide and drop a coverslip over it.
My interest in compound microscopes came about from wanting to see the surface detail of insects and leaves, for this you only need to get light to shine onto the compound microscope stage from the side. (The only caveat being that it wants to be a soft light ie something like a torch with a bit of polythene bag over its front). Really not a very different approach to your Carson, I guess.
Of course stereo microscopes are great too :-)

Phill Brown
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Re: Stereo Microscope accompanying a handheld "microscope"

#10 Post by Phill Brown » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:15 pm

My stereo scope is intended for dissection and preparation.
It leaves both hands free and unlike a compound where everything is backwards and back to front.
Particularly useful for removing splinters at 25x, rarely use any more, usually less.
I use a fixed 8.75x Russian made binocular scope on a precision lathe, it's plenty for watch components and working under.
Unless using a 3D camera and playback the stereo will be lost so I don't see how it would be better than a digital microscope for that.
Binocular need adjustments between users so it adds an obstacle to spontaneity with sharing.
Same applies to compound binocular.
Good luck on the journey,it will likely lead to a compound anyway.

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