Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

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Lizzy
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Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#1 Post by Lizzy » Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:44 am

Hi, I am interested in an older microscope that is a monocular style. Most information is usually about cell phone mounts or digital camera adaptors used on a Trinocular or on one of the eyepieces on a binocular, leaving at least an eyepiece available to eye focus.
I found one brief mention of someone using this on a monocular and having good luck. I’m in the same boat as the poster, having a lot of “eye floaters” I have problems using regular binoculars for bird watching. Using a cell phone or my Sony NEX digital camera attached to the mono tube as a focusing screen sounds very appealing. Has anyone done this with this monocular microscope? Or does one really need to look in the eyepiece to get things fully focused? Can auto focus be relied on to hold focus in, or do I need manual settings?
I do not have a windows computer, so using most of the common usb cameras does not work for me. I have Android and iOS, along with my Sony NEX5t. Thank you for any advice on this. Lizzy

PeteM
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#2 Post by PeteM » Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:05 am

Lizzy, using your Sony Nex 5t for viewing, composing, and picture/video taking should work fine - and is a great way to make use of a monocular microscope.

If desired, you can add a larger external monitor.

Post #5 in this link shows a Sony Nex used in a similar way: https://www.microbehunter.com/microscop ... p?p=115314

Sure Squintsalot
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#3 Post by Sure Squintsalot » Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:33 am

Lizzy wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:44 am
Using a cell phone or my Sony NEX digital camera attached to the mono tube as a focusing screen sounds very appealing. Has anyone done this with this monocular microscope? Or does one really need to look in the eyepiece to get things fully focused? Can auto focus be relied on to hold focus in, or do I need manual settings?
I do not have a windows computer, so using most of the common usb cameras does not work for me. I have Android and iOS, along with my Sony NEX5t. Thank you for any advice on this. Lizzy
I use a Sony NEX5-R on my scopes. A simple NEX/Minolta adapter attached between camera and Minolta microscope adapter and I can direct-project through a 10x eyepiece and on to the camera sensor without a NEX lens. It's not ideal and requires a good flat-field ocular. You could certainly find adapetrs from any of the big three for dirt cheap that will then attach to a microscope adapter.

apochronaut
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#4 Post by apochronaut » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:14 am

My eyes are full of floaters and chunks of a detached retina so focusing accurately on a camera screen is difficult without the camera's focus magnifier, especially with lower magnifications. If the Nex 5t doesn't have one , then I might consider picking up another camera body and dedicate it to the microscope. Sony A 5000 bodies are pretty cheap right now and it has a 3 step one but it is only useful for focusing, not actually increasing magnification. Pete's suggestion of linking to another larger monitor is good because even if the camera screen is almost the full size of the back of the camera, the size of field being displayed is tiny compared to the microscope field through an eyepiece. It is very hard to make out details in the lmage.
Something the size of a decent size tablet is more representative.

Chas
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#5 Post by Chas » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:25 am

I dont know if this is relevent to the Sony camra but there are connectors that go between an iPad and USB:
Ipad to USB adapter.jpg
Ipad to USB adapter.jpg (127.04 KiB) Viewed 3035 times
I got this this thing a few days ago and (with a non-wifi Canon DSLR camera) can view the camera's 'Liveview' screen and take photos / videos through the iPad, using a generic camera control App.
The App that I tried was for Canon+Nikon but I guess there might be an app for Sony (?)
Last edited by Chas on Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

jfiresto
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#6 Post by jfiresto » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:36 am

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:14 am
My eyes are full of floaters and chunks of a detached retina so focusing accurately on a camera screen is difficult without the camera's focus magnifier, especially with lower magnifications....
If the camera has it, have you tried focus peaking? I have found it to be quicker and more convenient than using a camera's screen magnification, since then I don't have to swap eyeglasses to focus on its LCD screen.
-John

apochronaut
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#7 Post by apochronaut » Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:31 pm

I don't think it works without the lens attached.

jfiresto
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#8 Post by jfiresto » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:13 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:31 pm
I don't think it works without the lens attached.
It does for me when I attach the microscope as a "manual lens" using an MFT to c-mount thread adapter:
focus_peaking.jpg
focus_peaking.jpg (51.48 KiB) Viewed 2973 times
-John

PeteM
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#9 Post by PeteM » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:17 pm

Lizzy, You might want to post the microscope(s) you're considering. Getting a properly corrected photo relay lens for an older finite microscope and an APS-C-sized sensor can sometimes be tricky.

Generally speaking, for newer infinity microscopes you can go direct to the sensor of your camera (spaced properly) or use a generic (no corrections) relay lens.

For finite microscopes, excellent photo relay lenses may or may not be readily available. The solution is often to use the eyepiece of the microscope to project through your camera lens ("afocal" method).

You may end up with some magnification compared to a regular view through the eyepiece with a finite scope that has something like a 2.5x relay lens available. This shouldn't be a problem since you'll be doing everything on a screen.

Lizzy
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#10 Post by Lizzy » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:28 pm

I want to thank everyone for all the responses and advice. I’m not sure if this should be moved another part of the forum.
Anyhow, i am interested in a Unitron MPS. There have been very few mentions of it on various forums and such and it sounds very capable to me and will be fun to use homemade filters on. The BPS is the binocular version and I am kind of looking for one of those, too. I just feel that a monocular is more simple, less parts to go wrong and the It will be fun for me to experiment with.
I use old glass with my Sony, so have adaptors for it. It does peak focus, which I used all the time to get sharp pictures with my old manual lenses and I should have a c-mount adaptor somewhere. I will look into the adaptor for the iPad, that would be nice for viewing and processing. I will do some more reading about the a focal process in case I have to do that method. I’m just getting a grasp on all this. I’m very happy to hear people do have good luck focusing with the camera screen and feel like I can move forward with my plans. Again thanks. This is such a welcoming forum. Lizzy

Chas
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#11 Post by Chas » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:39 pm

I use a simpler system than PeteM with my DSLR - it is an empty tube that fits into the microscope (instead of the eyepiece) and this is attached the camera body by an adapter:
This picture shows the two parts seperately:
Sony to microscope eyepiece tube 640.jpg
Sony to microscope eyepiece tube 640.jpg (62.02 KiB) Viewed 2937 times
What you will find with adapters like this is that you might have to line the inner surface of the eyepiece-sized tube with something matt black or you will get a brighter spot in the centre of your pics, from the shiny black surface finish inside the tube.

The Canon that I use has a rear LCD screen that tilts, I have been using this for a few years, but my near-view eyesight is getting worse , so I am trying out connecting the camera to an old mini iPad.

PeteM
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#12 Post by PeteM » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:52 pm

Lizzy wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:28 pm
. . . Anyhow, i am interested in a Unitron MPS. There have been very few mentions of it on various forums and such and it sounds very capable to me and will be fun to use homemade filters on. . . Lizzy
Lizzy, The MPS, far as I know, is an older black monocular polarizing microscope with a spot for a single centerable-objective at a time. This could be a fantastic scope IF that's what you want to do.

If you want to look at specimens with cover slips (the usual microscope slides), it might not be the best choice. If the price is right, you might want both a polarizing scope and a regular compound microscope??

Sure Squintsalot
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#13 Post by Sure Squintsalot » Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:38 pm

Chas wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:39 pm
What you will find with adapters like this is that you might have to line the inner surface of the eyepiece-sized tube with something matt black or you will get a brighter spot in the centre of your pics, from the shiny black surface finish inside the tube.
Hmmm....I actually have this problem and I'd just assumed the bright sensor surface was reflecting off an internal glass element, like what happens when shooting with a long lens close to the sun. And just painting some camera black inside the tube will fix that?

Chas
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#14 Post by Chas » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:39 pm

Sure Squintalot, I cant say anything about camera black paint, as I dont have any. I have two of these adapters, one I have lined with telescope flocking material and in the other I have curled up some black EVA foam.
The telecope flocking material was self-adhesive backed and thinner than the EVA foam sheet, so in a physical sense works better, but in terms of killing the central spot they arent so different.
The EVA foam I used was a bit thick (2mm) so to avoid it causing vignetting I had to leave a bit of the tube unlined at the camera end.
I have a feeling that surface roughness might be the key feature and maybe matt paint might not have the same roughness. Try it and see , maybe you can cadge a bit of telescope flocking ...it only needs to be a very small piece 23 x Pi mm by an inch.
..To mix units a little :-)

PeteM
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#15 Post by PeteM » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:48 pm

Chas wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:39 pm
I use a simpler system than PeteM with my DSLR - it is an empty tube that fits into the microscope (instead of the eyepiece) and this is attached the camera body by an adapter . . .
That's a great approach if Lizzy doesn't need significant eyepiece corrections (many older finite scopes and some infinite scopes).

Chas
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#16 Post by Chas » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:19 pm

That's a great approach if Lizzy doesn't need significant eyepiece corrections (many older finite scopes and some infinite scopes).
Yes, it is a compromise in lots of ways; the good things are that it will fit into nearly all microscope eyepiece tubes, the bad things (in addition to the loss of eyepiece corrections that you mention* ) are complete loss of parfocality, a much longer tube length than the objectives were designed for and the loss of the diaphragm in the eyepiece that seems to do a really good job of controlling stray light .. the last can be quite a problem ; there can be slightly shiny surfaces inside the eyepiece mounting tube itself and for some little scopes the inside of the main body tube . Generally rolling up a bit of EVA foam, inside the various tubes helps one locate the source of the light causing the fogging.

*most English finite achromats dont seem to throw up major colour correction problems.

On the other hand using eyepiece projection isnt always easy.. with a lot of English microscopes the eyepiece mounting tubes are often thick-walled/cast so most of the standard camera-eyepiece adapters will not fit onto the eyepiece tube.
Last edited by Chas on Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

Phill Brown
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#17 Post by Phill Brown » Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:41 pm

I'm going to second maybe a dedicated polarising scope might not be optional for the application.
I don't have a Unitron MPS to test so can't say either way.
If the condenser is dry only there may be avoidable limitations in the near future.
Good luck anyway.

Chas
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#18 Post by Chas » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:52 am

Maybe there is an advantage from using a polarising scope if you are going to mount a camera on the top, as a viewer ... the stage rotates which makes framing tight-fitting things that much easier.
..I often end up rotating the camera and then have to walk round the desk to view the screen.
The Unitron seems to have an advantage over a Swift polarising scope in that the bertand lens+blank looks to be on a slide, rather than mounted on a knob, which should make it less of a faff to take it completely out of the system, when you want to.

The condenser doesnt seem to have a high N.A but one can always pop another one in (as an introduction into the woes of condenser mountings ! :-( )

Lizzy
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#19 Post by Lizzy » Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:15 pm

Hello, sorry for not replying, we had a family birthday party and visitors this weekend. The microscope I am waiting to arrive is a phase contrast model, not polarizing. It does say in the literature that it is capable of polarized with a kit.
This is a link to an old Unitron add. The MPH is described on the third page.
http://www.science-info.net/docs/unitr ... Models.pdf
I was going to post a picture of the ad, but wasn’t sure if it was allowed, even though it is from the 1950’s.
This is a copy of the write up.

UNITRON MONOCULAR LAB MODEL MPH
SPECIFICATIONS - Four coated achromatic objectives: 4X (non-phase, N.A. 0.15), phase P10X (N.A. 0.25), P40X (N.A. 0.65), and P100X (N.A. 1.25)oil immersion; monocular body with graduated, adjustable drawtube; large stand inclinable through 90°; quadruple revolving nosepiece; coarse focusing by diagonal-cut rack and pinion; fine focusing by micrometer screw; detachable mechanical stage; phase condenser (N.A. 1.2) for "Continuous-Transition" Microscopy, focusable by rack and pinion, with removable phase annulus, and iris diaphragm for brightfield applications; filter holder and green filter; built-in illuminating system with 5-intensity transformer (115 volts AC); 6 spare bulbs; stage clips; wooden cabinet and dustcover. Choice of bright or dark contrast.

I am only getting the scope in hopefully useable condition. It comes with the specified objectives and 10x eyepiece.
I am going to have to use an alternative light source, as the bulbs are around fifty dollars and I don’t have a transformer to control the light anyhow. I am looking at led replacement light sources ready made, though my step son could make something for me. About halfway down this page http://www.mrmartinweb.com/microtele.html There is a description as to how he altered his light source to work using a pinball machine bulb and a few other things.

Anyhow, I’m super excited for it to arrive and have my fingers crossed that if only needs some cleaning and a light source. I can’t wait to use some of the suggestions to get an imaging system going. I do have a Chromebook too, so between that and the adaptor mentioned for the iPad, I’m hoping to figure out a setup so I have a nice big image to look at. I have a micrometer so I can measure the tube and order an adaptor for my Sony NEX camera, though I’ve seen multi sized kits available. I should order one now, so it will be here around the same time…. With a return policy, in case this doesn’t work out, lol.

I also ordered a booklet printed in 1963, that was made specifically about this scope and thought that would be a fun and useful thing to have, since I can’t find a manual anywhere. When it comes, I’m hoping it’ll be able to make a post in the “My Microscope” section.
Thanks for all the interest and advice, Lizzy

PeteM
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#20 Post by PeteM » Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:32 pm

Hi Lizzy, the "MPH" should work fine for slides. The "MPS," mentioned earlier (post #10), is a different microscope.

Lizzy
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Re: Advice needed-Monocular with a camera attached

#21 Post by Lizzy » Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:24 am

Hi, yes I looked back and saw I had posted mps, rather than mph. I’m sorry about that, my auto correct keeps wanting to make it MPS as it is this abbreviation for the school my step son attended.
Lizzy

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