Microscope for photography?

[xparte]

Hi,

I am looking for a microscope that I can attach a camera to (Canon SLR) for micro/macro photography. I've been shooting with macro lens (1-5x) for a while now but would like to get closer. I mainly shoot nature, bugs, leaves etc but may possible experiment more with this new device. I can't see myself examining cells or anything.

I know about cameras but almost nothing about microscopes so excuse the very basic questions. Have been reading a lot of the threads in this group but still unsure about a few things.

I have been considering these 2 microscopes as they look suitable but if they're not, please let me know (or any others you would recommend).

http://www.opticscentral.com.au/saxon-n ... ojUMZN963J
http://www.opticscentral.com.au/optex-x ... ojUMZN963J

1. I believe a stereo trinocular head microscope would be most suitable so I can connect the camera to the 3rd head via a C mount adapter. Is this right?

2. I am looking for 40x (possibly up to 80x) magnification. In a microscope's specification should I be looking at the objective a magnification specified eg. on the Optex it says: Objective Lenses: 4x, 10x, 40x, 100x. Does this mean that I would get up to 100x through the camera connection as I understand magnification is sometimes based on the eyepiece?

3. The microscope shops here don't carry the adapter & have advised to look on ebay. There seem to be two types: the quality one with a 2x magnification http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AmScope-CA-C ... Sw5ZBWQTsr or the cheap plastic tubing one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Microsco ... OSwhcJWNyh~ . Do I need the 2x magnification in the quality adapter or am I better off putting the extra money into the scope & buying the cheap tube.

4. Would either of the above microscopes be suitable?

I would prefer to buy locally & new in Australia just in case there are any issues. Would like to stick to the budget of the above lens but don't mind spending a little more if there's much more value or if I really won't get sharp images with these microscopes.

Thanks for any advice!

[gekko]

Before considering a microscope for the kind of work you are contemplating, you may want to explore attaching a microscope objective (4x and 10x) to your camera directly. There are adapters for different camera systems, and 160-mm tube length Nikon objectives do not require an eyepiece or a tube lens and can be used to project their image directly onto the film or sensor. Here is one that adapts a microscope objective to a canon EOS mount: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RMS-2-Canon-EOS ... w1UYeWjmrA
but you would want to use extension tubes or bellows between the adapter and the camera to get the correct "tube length".

einman (see his excellent images on this forum) uses that method and he probably can give you better advice. Here is a very useful paper written by one of the preeminent photomicrographers, Charles Krebs, that you might find very helpful:
http://www.krebsmicro.com/obj_bellows/index.html

[75RR]

I would prefer to buy locally & new in Australia just in case there are any issues. Would like to stick to the budget of the above lens but don't mind spending a little more if there's much more value or if I really won't get sharp images with these microscopes.

First rule for buying anything, and this includes microscopes, is try it first. This is true if you are buying new and is especially true when buying second hand. When buying new, if one can not try the actual microscope one is going to buy, one should at the very least try one of the same make and model. Everything looks nice and well made in promotional photographs - not everything is.

If you are going to buy local buy very local, otherwise you might as well buy international.

[xparte]

Before considering a microscope for the kind of work you are contemplating, you may want to explore attaching a microscope objective (4x and 10x) to your camera directly. There are adapters for different camera systems, and 160-mm tube length Nikon objectives do not require an eyepiece or a tube lens and can be used to project their image directly onto the film or sensor. Here is one that adapts a microscope objective to a canon EOS mount: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RMS-2-Canon-EOS ... w1UYeWjmrA
but you would want to use extension tubes or bellows between the adapter and the camera to get the correct "tube length".

einman (see his excellent images on this forum) uses that method and he probably can give you better advice. Here is a very useful paper written by one of the preeminent photomicrographers, Charles Krebs, that you might find very helpful:
http://www.krebsmicro.com/obj_bellows/index.html

That's a very good link, thanks for that.

I actually did see the objectives earlier but didn't really know much about that and thought the microscope would've been the more simpler option & get more magnification. Will have another look at the objective options. Is the 10x the strongest I would find on an objective? Will also need to work out what kind of objective I should be looking at too.

First rule for buying anything, and this includes microscopes, is try it first. This is true if you are buying new and is especially true when buying second hand. When buying new, if one can not try the actual microscope one is going to buy, one should at the very least try one of the same make and model. Everything looks nice and well made in promotional photographs - not everything is.

If you are going to buy local buy very local, otherwise you might as well buy international.

The microscope stores here are actually interstate so when I say local, I won't actually get a chance to test them and purchase will be online. You raise a good point.. might not be such a bad idea to consider international for a more recommended option. Thanks for the suggestion.

[gekko]

Some random thoughts for what they are worth:

Microscope objective for direct projection onto film/sensor: Nikon CF objectives (for 160-mm tubelength) require neither an eyepiece (for correcting aberrations) nor a tube lens, so are eminently suitable for this task. Objectives above 10x will have rather small working distances which make them less flexible and make it more difficult to illuminate the object for reflected light applications. In any case, Nikon M type objectives that don't require a cover glass must be used (this is less critical for objectives with NA less that 0.25 or so).

Stereo microscopes: Binocular stereo microscopes of the Green[something]** have a disadvantage for photography in that the two image-forming light beams converge such that neither is parallel to the microscope axis, so that a horizontal slide will not be in focus using one eye except at one point [one line, actually], and for photography, the slide must be tilted to get everything in focus. However, I have no idea how the image is formed using the the phototube of a trinicular stereo scope and I hope that one of the experts on this forum will explain how this is achieved. With the (usually) more expensive CMO type, this is not a problem, but, unless its optics are highly corrected, optical aberrations may be higher because the two light beams pass through the objective off-center.

For high magnifications, obviously a "compound" ("biological") micrscope setup will be needed.

Web sites that may be useful:

http://www.photomacrography.net/
http://www.krebsmicro.com/
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2039
____
** Sorry, I cannot "retrieve" the correct name from my brain cells (or whatever remains from them), but someone will provide the correct name, I'm sure.

[einman]

As mentioned CF or M type objectives from Nikon are preferred. Though if you look at my photos I have used both Leitz and Nikon at 10X or below. I use Nikon for 20X or above. I also have some Olympus M type objectives but have not yet tried them. I did try some B&L LWD objectives used with their older inverted microscopes and did not find them nearly as good, in part due to the lower NA of the inverted objectives. The Nikon CF 10X objective is in big demand for photography and as such tends to command a higher price. Charles Krebs recommends the CF or M Nikon Objectives. You can find them in ULWD or LWD as well You can go all the way to 40X. Again Charles Krebs discusses this on his site. Of course the higher magnifications require stacking. I am still working my technique. Lighting is, in actuality, the more complex issue for getting really good photos once you have selected your objectives.

I have a Nikon SMZ-U stereo scope arguably one of the best on the market. Even Nikon still compares their newest scopes to their older SMZ-U. Even with the Nikon SMZ-U the photos are better using the camera and objective approach due to the higher NA of the objectives and superior coatings etc.

You can purchase, if not already, your camera locally and buy the objectives from E-bay.

As Gekko advised. Read the info on Charles Krebs website. He has years of experience and he utilizes an Olympus BH-2 compound scope customized with internal flash, custom stage etc. with incredible results.

[xparte]

Thanks for the info & links! The extreme-macro site has been very informative.

After reading the replies here and the information on the website, I do think the objectives are probably the best solution for me. I've searched on ebay for Nikon 10x objective and there's been a lot of results come back and they all seem different and vary a lot in price. http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_odkw ... e&_sacat=0

Would you recommend any of those?

I've now learnt that the infinity ones can be mounted at the end of a zoom lens which I could do so I looked at this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-10x-Ob ... SwPe1UCIBD . Am I looking at the right thing? I couldn't see any designation of CF or M on this though.

Would love the 20x but they jump up to the $1000+ mark it seems.

[gekko]

I don't know enough about the use of infinity objectives (Nikon infinity objectives are often designated as CFI). Of the 160-mm or 210-mm tube length objectives in the ebay link, I think the following CF ones would be suitable. Infinity corrected objectives are usually cylindrical in shape. Older (non-CF, short) have the knurled part below the thread black. M are 210-mm tube length and are for use without cover glass. CF N have higher numerical aperture and give better resolution. LWD and SLWD objectives are long and super long working distance objectives (more convenient for your application, but with the penalty of slightly lower numerical aperture. Fluor are fluorite objectives that are better corrected than achromats, have a larger numerical aperture, and pass UV wavelengths. For 3-dimensional objects, I doubt that a plan objective would be necessary but, of course, it won't hurt and may come in useful in use with a flat object.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-Plan-1 ... SwA4dWGY6F
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-N10-25 ... Swv-NWVh0Z
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-10X-0- ... Sw3ydVwYOT
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-FLUOR- ... SwGvhT1Xed
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NIKON-M-PLAN ... SwAF5UZ6Ry
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-E-Plan ... RGv_fUl_QA
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-CFN-M- ... SwPhdU4ZnC
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-E-Plan ... SwDN1UTuhz
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-CFN-Pl ... SwZkJUTuLv

Information about CF Nikon objectives.
PDF Nikon CF M objectives (210 mm):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... mo&cad=rja

PDF Nikon CF objectives (160 mm):
www.krebsmicro.com/Nikon_CF.pdf

I hope this partially answers your questions.

[einman]

Thanks for the info & links! The extreme-macro site has been very informative.

After reading the replies here and the information on the website, I do think the objectives are probably the best solution for me. I've searched on ebay for Nikon 10x objective and there's been a lot of results come back and they all seem different and vary a lot in price. http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_odkw ... e&_sacat=0

Would you recommend any of those?

I've now learnt that the infinity ones can be mounted at the end of a zoom lens which I could do so I looked at this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikon-10x-Ob ... SwPe1UCIBD . Am I looking at the right thing? I couldn't see any designation of CF or M on this though.

Would love the 20x but they jump up to the $1000+ mark it seems.

Actually I just purchased a Nikon BD Plan 20x 210/0 objective for $90. It has been discussed in some detail on the macrophotography website. The BD plan objectives sell for less than the M plan objectives with the primary difference being working distance. I currently use M and BD plan Nikon objectives. There are comparisons on the website.

For the money the BD plans are excellent objectives and less costly then the CF-N plan objectives though may be a little lower in NA depending on the magnification etc. However, that difference is not readily apparent per the photos I have seen.

[gekko]

I just want to add that what I said above does not derive from first hand experience, whereas einman's advice certainly does.

[einman]

Thanks Gekko- but you give me more credit than deserved.

One note. Nikon M plan objectives are standard RMS. however the BD plan are M26. So you cant swap M and BD plan objectives out without changing the adapter on the camera.