Hey everyone,
Just want to say how much I've enjoyed the great resources on this site over the last week or so as I look into buying my first microscope.
I'm looking for a scope to help with a very specific application: I want to look for Lyme Disease spirochete bacteria in my blood, as well as look for any intracellular bacteria (like Bartonella or Babesia) with a Giemsa stain.
At first I was going to buy an Omax or an Amscope, but reading here it sounds like I might be better off with a higher quality, used scope.
I don't want to spend much more than $250 (not a ton, I know), but even after doing a ton of research, I can't seem to figure out what I need.
The big 4 manufacturers, even buying used, seem to be out of my price range. Ones that are in my price range seem super old and neglected.
I started looking at older AO scopes as an intermediate, but my goodness, their series lineup is confusing: 10 vs 50 vs 100 vs 110 vs 120 vs 400 vs microstar vs phasestar etc etc etc (I have no idea which of these is better than others)
Could any of you experts give me some solid recommendations on a microscope to suit my needs? I'm tempted to just go back to Omax or Amscope on Amazon, but I don't want to sacrifice image quality when I'm looking at tiny things like Babesia inside of red blood cells.
Any help appreciated!
Or eBay links too if you've got any bookmarked!
Thanks again!
Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Good luck finding one that is complete and in great condition for $250... All of the really good ones have been gobbled up by collectors, leaving the less desirable ones for us to buy.. Please post an update if you ever do find a good one..
BillT
BillT
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Welcome to the forum, MIK.MIK wrote: I started looking at older AO scopes as an intermediate, but my goodness, their series lineup is confusing: 10 vs 50 vs 100 vs 110 vs 120 vs 400 vs microstar vs phasestar etc etc etc (I have no idea which of these is better than others)
All AO microscopes that you mentioned are infinity scopes that can only use AO infinity ( oo symbole) objectives. Not 160 mm tube length objectives and not objectives made by other manufacturer.
AO50/60/150 are basic scopes that lack expandability, which I do not recommend.
AO110/120 are similar with 120 having more powerful light source, useful for phase contrast and darkfield. They are newer versions of 10/20. 10/20/110/120 are all pretty good scopes.
400 series are the newest (newer than 100 series or 110/120) and are also very good.
But super old and neglected can still offer good optical quality though.
Depending on the specific scope or model, it may or may not be more expandable, say for DIY, than others.
I am not familiar with the microstar or phasestar names, as I only remember the series / model numbers.
For your application, darkfield or phase contrast is recommended. Phase will cost more, but is easier to use. Darkfield is cheaper but needs more light and more difficult to use (good darkfield needs oil immersion darkfield condenser).
I have an AO series 4 darkfield / brightfield scope for sale for $135 plus actual shipping cost (shipped only within continental USA). It is a 160mm version that is more flexible and can accept all 160mm objectives made by any manufacturer. But it is missing a light source and a stage screw. There are a few light source options that I have listed in my thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3038
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Phase Star and Micro Star are just names tacked on to AO Series 10 scopes, don't really mean much other than Phase Star should mean it has phase contrast. The one Dale has for sale is a good example of a Phase Star, and is a very serviceable and complete ready-to-go set up: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2812 .
Cheers,
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/
-
apatientspider
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:54 pm
- Location: Pinehurst, Texas
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Hi, MIK, and welcome to the forum.
I'm certainly no authority, and there are people here with far more knowledge and experience than I, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.
One thing that jumps right out first is that if you want to do much looking at spirochetes, you will want a microscope that has or can be fitted with high power darkfield capability. Most of them - especially used ones - don't come that way, so you'll have to buy a darkfield condenser for it - which isn't altogether cheap even used. You can add low power darkfield to most any scope with just a simple, make-it-yourself patch stop and it will be fine for anything up to about a 40x power objective lens. But most spirochetes and other bacteria are extremely tiny and you'll very quickly be wanting to look at them with a higher power objective.
What you want is a good basic laboratory microscope with lots of accessory options. With your budget, I would strongly consider used; there is some fantastic optical equipment out there for relatively little money, no matter what brand you buy and no matter where it was made. Now you can go with Ebay offerings, which have always been something of a craps shoot when it comes to condition of equipment - although nowadays things seem to be weighted a bit more in favor of the buyers - or you can buy used from various microscope dealers. Buying used from a dealer usually insures decent merchandise, but it also usually means a higher price - a dealer's expertise and warranty are worth something.
Here in the US your best bets for Ebay microscopes are American Optical / Spencer and Bausch and Lomb just from the standpoint of quantity from which to select. The output of those two companies over the hundred plus years they were making microscopes was just prolific - tens if not hundreds of thousands of instruments - and the quality was second to nobody for a particular grade and price range. Bausch and Lomb stuff seems to be a bit more plentiful on Ebay and usually commands a higher price than the American Optical/Spencer, but the quality is no better - they were fierce competitors. But pick one brand and resign yourself to staying with it, because they gradually got to the point where one company's optical parts and accessories were no longer easily compatible with the other. It can get expensive to outfit a selection from both brands - even used.
Another important thing to consider is illumination. Older scopes - the "black beauties" as most like to call them - almost universally depend on using a substage mirror and a stand-alone source of illumination. That source can be anything from a simple household candle or sunny cloud seen through a window - to the most advanced research lamps offered, such as an A.O. ortho-illuminator. The main advantages are that you can pick your illumination method to suit your needs and budget; you are not locked into only one system, and so you can experiment - you can even build your own; and the lamp or whatever can be used with just about any instrument that has a mirror if you later decide to upgrade your scope. (If your scope is missing its mirror as many often are, replacements are plentiful. If you are really frugal, you can rig up the mirror from a lady's discarded, in-expensive compact; they are usually about the right diameter and of excellent optical quality.) The two main disadvantages of stand-alone illuminators are lack of convenience and the learning curve associated with setting them up and using them. The third disadvantage is the cost of one that is adequate for a binocular microscope with higher power objectives - easily $50 or more these days, usually more.
The main advantage of built-in illumination is convenience - about all you have to know is how to turn it on. The main disadvantage - at least with used scopes - is getting one that still works or has parts available, and getting one that is sophisticated enough to offer either true Nelsonian or preferably Kohler illumination instead of a simple "cloud in a box under the stage" illumination. Don't misunderstand - the latter is fine for low power work, but for high powered objectives and especially for binocular heads you need really good light. That can mean either lots of light or a small amount but efficiently directed. Wouldn't hurt for it to be both. In any event you probably will spend as much for a scope with good illumination built in as you will for a good scope and a stand-alone lamp, but the former may be easier to find these days.
The next thing to consider is the optical system. Do you want a microscope with the older 160 mm tube length optics or the more modern infinity corrected system? With the infinity corrected system, even though it is more modern and up-to-date, you are pretty much locked in to that specific manufacturer's lenses. For example there is plenty of American Optical infinity corrected stuff on Ebay, so it isn't necessarily a problem finding it at reasonable prices - if you are patient, but it isn't interchangeable with anyone else's - if that's important. With the 160 mm tube length system, equipment from many different manufacturers can be found and used, so your options are greatly increased.
Yes, American Optical's various lines can be confusing. names such as Microstar, Phasestar, etc. are just terms they used later to designate models outfitted for various purposes. The Microstar was their lab scope; the Phasestar was their lab scope outfitted for phase contrast work. There was also a Biostar and for awhile even an Apostar (fitted with apochromat lenses.) These designations began when the non-black enameled microscopes were introduced. They were first offered in the series 2/4 instruments with 160 mm tube length optics. Then with the exception of the Apostar (I believe) they were carried over into the series 10 and later models. Series 10 scopes (in the early 1960s) began the introduction of infinity corrected optics for AO. Series 10/20, then 110/120, etc. and subsequently higher numbers for later series that were introduced until they finally stopped calling themselves American Optical in the 1980's.
Jim
I'm certainly no authority, and there are people here with far more knowledge and experience than I, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.
One thing that jumps right out first is that if you want to do much looking at spirochetes, you will want a microscope that has or can be fitted with high power darkfield capability. Most of them - especially used ones - don't come that way, so you'll have to buy a darkfield condenser for it - which isn't altogether cheap even used. You can add low power darkfield to most any scope with just a simple, make-it-yourself patch stop and it will be fine for anything up to about a 40x power objective lens. But most spirochetes and other bacteria are extremely tiny and you'll very quickly be wanting to look at them with a higher power objective.
What you want is a good basic laboratory microscope with lots of accessory options. With your budget, I would strongly consider used; there is some fantastic optical equipment out there for relatively little money, no matter what brand you buy and no matter where it was made. Now you can go with Ebay offerings, which have always been something of a craps shoot when it comes to condition of equipment - although nowadays things seem to be weighted a bit more in favor of the buyers - or you can buy used from various microscope dealers. Buying used from a dealer usually insures decent merchandise, but it also usually means a higher price - a dealer's expertise and warranty are worth something.
Here in the US your best bets for Ebay microscopes are American Optical / Spencer and Bausch and Lomb just from the standpoint of quantity from which to select. The output of those two companies over the hundred plus years they were making microscopes was just prolific - tens if not hundreds of thousands of instruments - and the quality was second to nobody for a particular grade and price range. Bausch and Lomb stuff seems to be a bit more plentiful on Ebay and usually commands a higher price than the American Optical/Spencer, but the quality is no better - they were fierce competitors. But pick one brand and resign yourself to staying with it, because they gradually got to the point where one company's optical parts and accessories were no longer easily compatible with the other. It can get expensive to outfit a selection from both brands - even used.
Another important thing to consider is illumination. Older scopes - the "black beauties" as most like to call them - almost universally depend on using a substage mirror and a stand-alone source of illumination. That source can be anything from a simple household candle or sunny cloud seen through a window - to the most advanced research lamps offered, such as an A.O. ortho-illuminator. The main advantages are that you can pick your illumination method to suit your needs and budget; you are not locked into only one system, and so you can experiment - you can even build your own; and the lamp or whatever can be used with just about any instrument that has a mirror if you later decide to upgrade your scope. (If your scope is missing its mirror as many often are, replacements are plentiful. If you are really frugal, you can rig up the mirror from a lady's discarded, in-expensive compact; they are usually about the right diameter and of excellent optical quality.) The two main disadvantages of stand-alone illuminators are lack of convenience and the learning curve associated with setting them up and using them. The third disadvantage is the cost of one that is adequate for a binocular microscope with higher power objectives - easily $50 or more these days, usually more.
The main advantage of built-in illumination is convenience - about all you have to know is how to turn it on. The main disadvantage - at least with used scopes - is getting one that still works or has parts available, and getting one that is sophisticated enough to offer either true Nelsonian or preferably Kohler illumination instead of a simple "cloud in a box under the stage" illumination. Don't misunderstand - the latter is fine for low power work, but for high powered objectives and especially for binocular heads you need really good light. That can mean either lots of light or a small amount but efficiently directed. Wouldn't hurt for it to be both. In any event you probably will spend as much for a scope with good illumination built in as you will for a good scope and a stand-alone lamp, but the former may be easier to find these days.
The next thing to consider is the optical system. Do you want a microscope with the older 160 mm tube length optics or the more modern infinity corrected system? With the infinity corrected system, even though it is more modern and up-to-date, you are pretty much locked in to that specific manufacturer's lenses. For example there is plenty of American Optical infinity corrected stuff on Ebay, so it isn't necessarily a problem finding it at reasonable prices - if you are patient, but it isn't interchangeable with anyone else's - if that's important. With the 160 mm tube length system, equipment from many different manufacturers can be found and used, so your options are greatly increased.
Yes, American Optical's various lines can be confusing. names such as Microstar, Phasestar, etc. are just terms they used later to designate models outfitted for various purposes. The Microstar was their lab scope; the Phasestar was their lab scope outfitted for phase contrast work. There was also a Biostar and for awhile even an Apostar (fitted with apochromat lenses.) These designations began when the non-black enameled microscopes were introduced. They were first offered in the series 2/4 instruments with 160 mm tube length optics. Then with the exception of the Apostar (I believe) they were carried over into the series 10 and later models. Series 10 scopes (in the early 1960s) began the introduction of infinity corrected optics for AO. Series 10/20, then 110/120, etc. and subsequently higher numbers for later series that were introduced until they finally stopped calling themselves American Optical in the 1980's.
Jim
-
apatientspider
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:54 pm
- Location: Pinehurst, Texas
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
continued:
I suppose I have repeated to some extent what others above have said, but I will throw a couple other thoughts out there. The following applies if you are looking to get something off Ebay - for other sources never mind:
If you are only ever going to buy one scope, then buy a binocular one. It will probably prove to be more expensive for that and whatever accessories you want and whatever illumination system you go for, but your eyes will thank you.
If your budget is extremely tight, but you think you might want to upgrade later, then get one of the black monocular laboratory grade microscopes, like an American Optical/Spencer model 33 or later model 35. These can be found dirt cheap - and usually for about 2/3 of what you will pay for the black binocular models 13 and 15. They will do anything the binoculars will do except they aren't binocular and they don't require quite as much light or as fancy a lamp. Whether monocular or binocular, old black enameled with separate lamp, or more modern with illumination built in - you will probably still have to get your darkfield equipment as an add on. The scope may come already outfitted with phase contrast equipment, but it will be expensive if it does.
Lastly, don't sell the older optics short. Most of my stuff was made before I was born (I'm 66) but it is still top notch. Just yesterday I was using an old fluorite 95x oil immersion objective that was made in the 1930's or 40's. I got it very cheap and then discovered it had a nasty pit almost dead center in the front lens element. I thought it was a blob of crud and made it worse by trying to clean it off. I was about ready to discard the thing, but for some reason decided to try looking at something through it. Imagine how happy I was to still get a very nice, sharp image - better even than an undamaged achromat of the same power and make. In fact, I found my very first amoeba with it! ( In use the immersion oil apparently fills in the pit like liquid glass. That's why it's called homogeneous immersion.)
Jim
I suppose I have repeated to some extent what others above have said, but I will throw a couple other thoughts out there. The following applies if you are looking to get something off Ebay - for other sources never mind:
If you are only ever going to buy one scope, then buy a binocular one. It will probably prove to be more expensive for that and whatever accessories you want and whatever illumination system you go for, but your eyes will thank you.
If your budget is extremely tight, but you think you might want to upgrade later, then get one of the black monocular laboratory grade microscopes, like an American Optical/Spencer model 33 or later model 35. These can be found dirt cheap - and usually for about 2/3 of what you will pay for the black binocular models 13 and 15. They will do anything the binoculars will do except they aren't binocular and they don't require quite as much light or as fancy a lamp. Whether monocular or binocular, old black enameled with separate lamp, or more modern with illumination built in - you will probably still have to get your darkfield equipment as an add on. The scope may come already outfitted with phase contrast equipment, but it will be expensive if it does.
Lastly, don't sell the older optics short. Most of my stuff was made before I was born (I'm 66) but it is still top notch. Just yesterday I was using an old fluorite 95x oil immersion objective that was made in the 1930's or 40's. I got it very cheap and then discovered it had a nasty pit almost dead center in the front lens element. I thought it was a blob of crud and made it worse by trying to clean it off. I was about ready to discard the thing, but for some reason decided to try looking at something through it. Imagine how happy I was to still get a very nice, sharp image - better even than an undamaged achromat of the same power and make. In fact, I found my very first amoeba with it! ( In use the immersion oil apparently fills in the pit like liquid glass. That's why it's called homogeneous immersion.)
Jim
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Kurt, thanks for the plug, but my scope is gone. Had to make room for the Nikon 
Mik, I would vote against an AO series 10 because it lacks illumination at high power. Enough
for brightfield, but not for phase. If you see something on ebay you can link it here for
experts to check. Very often vital pieces are missing.
I must ask, are you qualified to draw blood for self examination, and are you
frequently exposed to the cause of Lyme's disease? Safety first, eh?
Dale
Mik, I would vote against an AO series 10 because it lacks illumination at high power. Enough
for brightfield, but not for phase. If you see something on ebay you can link it here for
experts to check. Very often vital pieces are missing.
I must ask, are you qualified to draw blood for self examination, and are you
frequently exposed to the cause of Lyme's disease? Safety first, eh?
Dale
B&L Stereozoom 4. Nikon E600. AO Biostar 1820.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
I too hope that MIK is not doing self diagnosis or accurate spirochete bacteria count, which is impossible for just a microscope (you need clinical microbiology lab tests). Microscope can tell you, that there seems to be too much spirochete bacteria- like things in blood and it is time to go see a doctor/get a lab test. That moderate end purpose also reduces the light output requirement somewhat, since you are only trying to get a rough idea (I hope) and not researching bacterial structures or doing microphotography.
Also, staining intracellular bacteria in a person's cells and stain with Giemsa stain may be technically difficult. You need quite some bacteria load to really see them, even if you mange to stain them well. If you have that much bacteria in your body, you would probably feel it already. I was a research microbiologist for 6 years and I don't even think that I can reliably stain intracellular bacteria with Giemsa from a person's cells, even in a lab. One needs to culture the bacteria first (if it can be cultured at all) and make them reproduce in large amount, then perform some immunological stain/test. Giemsa stain is not very sensitive to detect small amount of intracellular bacteria.
I respectively disagree with Dale on AO10 not being a good choice though. If you can DIY a mirror and make or order a high power LED, some AO10 models offer sufficient under stage space for DIY improvement (while most, if not all, AO110 don't have that much understage space). I had a friend built a nice 40w LED (equivalent to 100w halogen and around 2400 lumen) for $150 and DIYed a mirror with a right angled building block for $2. My mirror can fit under an AO10 like Kurt's (whose factory light can be removed to provide more space) but not the AO110 model that I tried.
Also, staining intracellular bacteria in a person's cells and stain with Giemsa stain may be technically difficult. You need quite some bacteria load to really see them, even if you mange to stain them well. If you have that much bacteria in your body, you would probably feel it already. I was a research microbiologist for 6 years and I don't even think that I can reliably stain intracellular bacteria with Giemsa from a person's cells, even in a lab. One needs to culture the bacteria first (if it can be cultured at all) and make them reproduce in large amount, then perform some immunological stain/test. Giemsa stain is not very sensitive to detect small amount of intracellular bacteria.
I respectively disagree with Dale on AO10 not being a good choice though. If you can DIY a mirror and make or order a high power LED, some AO10 models offer sufficient under stage space for DIY improvement (while most, if not all, AO110 don't have that much understage space). I had a friend built a nice 40w LED (equivalent to 100w halogen and around 2400 lumen) for $150 and DIYed a mirror with a right angled building block for $2. My mirror can fit under an AO10 like Kurt's (whose factory light can be removed to provide more space) but not the AO110 model that I tried.
Last edited by zzffnn on Mon May 23, 2016 1:20 am, edited 6 times in total.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
+1. My AO 10 Phase Star with 1031 lamp (same as Dale's) provided adequate light. I have since converted to a 1036A lamp reconfigured to LED powered by 4 AA batteries, and it also provides plenty of light. It might be mentioned that my AO 10 Phase Star has the rare bright phase contrast option, but I doubt that makes much difference. The AO 10 is one of the top bang-for-the-buck microscopes out there.zzffnn wrote:I respectively disagree with Dale on AO10 not being a good choice though.
Maybe Dale's had a faulty transformer or something...?
I must respectfully disagree with this guy too -- he certainly IS an authority! Jim's mentoring enabled me to go from the most basic and casual user to a competent amateur microscopist who can get the most out of a system due to a fair understanding of how it works. I'll always be grateful to his generous sharing of knowledge, and enthusiastically endorse anything/everything he says.apatientspider wrote:I'm certainly no authority...
Cheers,
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
My opinion was based on using a 20X eyepiece and rotating objectives from
10X to 40X. At 800X the image was distinctly darker, totally usable, but more
lumens would have helped. I did not pursue any improvements, which appear
would have helped.
Thanks for en-lightening me.
Dale
10X to 40X. At 800X the image was distinctly darker, totally usable, but more
lumens would have helped. I did not pursue any improvements, which appear
would have helped.
Thanks for en-lightening me.
Dale
B&L Stereozoom 4. Nikon E600. AO Biostar 1820.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
20x eyepiece?!? WOW. Gotta say, never tried that... 
Cheers,
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/
Kurt Maurer
League City, Texas
email: ngc704(at)gmail(dot)com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/67904872@ ... 912223623/
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
The 800X falls within the guidelines of useless magnification someone sent me, for
the 10, anyway. The Biostar is not running yet, but since my maximum power objective
is 40X I hope it is ok. The 20X really shines on the stereozoom, which the ebay seller
sent by mistake, and did not want back!
I am not sure which AO eyepieces are the best, the all black or the aluminum. The
aluminum have slightly wider exit diameters, and they display a wider fov.
I am not fussing with putting the 1810 stage on the 1820 till I know it works well,
but just eyeballing shows no big problems. Nothing a Dremel can't fix!
Dale
the 10, anyway. The Biostar is not running yet, but since my maximum power objective
is 40X I hope it is ok. The 20X really shines on the stereozoom, which the ebay seller
sent by mistake, and did not want back!
I am not sure which AO eyepieces are the best, the all black or the aluminum. The
aluminum have slightly wider exit diameters, and they display a wider fov.
I am not fussing with putting the 1810 stage on the 1820 till I know it works well,
but just eyeballing shows no big problems. Nothing a Dremel can't fix!
Dale
B&L Stereozoom 4. Nikon E600. AO Biostar 1820.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Dale,
I think 20x eyepiece may be too much for phase contrast. With 20x EP, you are getting half the light of 10x EP. That might be why you considered your scope's light insufficient.
Also, phase' actual NA is much lower than objective's marked NA - while 20x EP may be OK for brightfield, it is pushing it for phase.
Further, getting maximum useful magnification usually means reducing image quality (which correlates with ratio of NA/magnification) , so even if 20xEP is useful, it won't give image as sharp as 10x EP.
Personally, I don't use EP of more than 15x, even with darkfield or high NA apo objectives.
I think 20x eyepiece may be too much for phase contrast. With 20x EP, you are getting half the light of 10x EP. That might be why you considered your scope's light insufficient.
Also, phase' actual NA is much lower than objective's marked NA - while 20x EP may be OK for brightfield, it is pushing it for phase.
Further, getting maximum useful magnification usually means reducing image quality (which correlates with ratio of NA/magnification) , so even if 20xEP is useful, it won't give image as sharp as 10x EP.
Personally, I don't use EP of more than 15x, even with darkfield or high NA apo objectives.
-
apatientspider
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:54 pm
- Location: Pinehurst, Texas
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
KurtM wrote:+1. My AO 10 Phase Star with 1031 lamp (same as Dale's) provided adequate light. I have since converted to a 1036A lamp reconfigured to LED powered by 4 AA batteries, and it also provides plenty of light. It might be mentioned that my AO 10 Phase Star has the rare bright phase contrast option, but I doubt that makes much difference. The AO 10 is one of the top bang-for-the-buck microscopes out there.zzffnn wrote:I respectively disagree with Dale on AO10 not being a good choice though.
Maybe Dale's had a faulty transformer or something...?
I must respectfully disagree with this guy too -- he certainly IS an authority! Jim's mentoring enabled me to go from the most basic and casual user to a competent amateur microscopist who can get the most out of a system due to a fair understanding of how it works. I'll always be grateful to his generous sharing of knowledge, and enthusiastically endorse anything/everything he says.apatientspider wrote:I'm certainly no authority...
Your check is in the mail, Kurt.
But seriously, thank-you. I've only been on this board a few months, but I have found that if there is anyone here that qualifies as an authority (as opposed to expert) it would have to be Phil - or Apochronaut as he calls himself. At least when it comes to the equipment and its various manufacturers. I don't know anyone else here who would tackle building his own substage condenser.
ZZFFNN, or Fan, is a microbiologist and health professional with lots of experience using the equipment. Definitely worth listening to his advice.
And there are a number of others whose names escape me at the moment.
Jim
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Maybe Dale's had a faulty transformer or something...?
I think zzffnn answered it perfectly, but you raise an interesting
point. How do we know when a light source has diminished from its
original output?
Dale
I think zzffnn answered it perfectly, but you raise an interesting
point. How do we know when a light source has diminished from its
original output?
Dale
B&L Stereozoom 4. Nikon E600. AO Biostar 1820.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Hey guys, tons of info, thanks so much! I'll have to take a bit to digest all this information, but it should give me a better idea of what to look for.
Just to clear things up, I'm not self-diagnosing or doing any counts or anything like that. I simply want to take a look at the bacteria inside of me, and also, if possible, identify an intra-cellular bacteria.
Just to clear things up, I'm not self-diagnosing or doing any counts or anything like that. I simply want to take a look at the bacteria inside of me, and also, if possible, identify an intra-cellular bacteria.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Jim,
You are too kind. My face is turning red. I had the fortune to learn microscopy from Phil, you, Lorez, gekko, Rod and Charles at this forum, and Rik, Pau, Charles Krebs, Ichty, Gene, Curt, Choronzon and "Litonotus" from the other forum. As well as lots of reading from Micascape UK and online resources.
Many medical researchers are just basic scope users. Those that really know their scopes are passionate microscopists/dealers/opticians/collectors/DIYers. For example, my mom's medical lab has a few top-of-the-line Zeiss DIC scopes, but neither my mom (the principal researcher) nor her lab people really know those scopes. A spoiled medical student in my mom's lab even said that one has to use DIC to view cell cultures and nothing else works - I gave her a smile and did not bother to enlighten her
You are too kind. My face is turning red. I had the fortune to learn microscopy from Phil, you, Lorez, gekko, Rod and Charles at this forum, and Rik, Pau, Charles Krebs, Ichty, Gene, Curt, Choronzon and "Litonotus" from the other forum. As well as lots of reading from Micascape UK and online resources.
Many medical researchers are just basic scope users. Those that really know their scopes are passionate microscopists/dealers/opticians/collectors/DIYers. For example, my mom's medical lab has a few top-of-the-line Zeiss DIC scopes, but neither my mom (the principal researcher) nor her lab people really know those scopes. A spoiled medical student in my mom's lab even said that one has to use DIC to view cell cultures and nothing else works - I gave her a smile and did not bother to enlighten her
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Guys, how does something like this compare?:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/REICHERT-MICROST ... B#shpCntId
I realize its not dark field, but I assume I could add that later if I felt the need.
The blood stain in the pictures is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do when I talk about staining/intra-cellulars.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/REICHERT-MICROST ... B#shpCntId
I realize its not dark field, but I assume I could add that later if I felt the need.
The blood stain in the pictures is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do when I talk about staining/intra-cellulars.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Optical quality of that scope's objectives are quite good, should be better than the ones I have for sale, I think. $200 would be a great price. Where are you located though, USA or Canada (since you used eBay Canada)? Shipping such a heavy scope from USA to Canada would cost a lot though, it looks like it would be around $87 + tax? Phil is in Canada and he may have a scope for you too.MIK wrote:Guys, how does something like this compare?:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/REICHERT-MICROST ... B#shpCntId
I realize its not dark field, but I assume I could add that later if I felt the need.
The blood stain in the pictures is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do when I talk about staining/intra-cellulars.
Any good brightfield scope can produce that kind of blood stain image, by the way. An experienced microscopist can produce a better image than that eBay image with optics that are not as good. So you probably don't want to buy a scope just because it shows an image like that.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Yup I'm in Canada. So if anyone else in Canada knows any sellers get in touch with me.
I'm close to the border however, and regularly ship things to a mailbox in the USA that I can pickup from, so it's not a huge deal for me. Just have to pay taxes at customs.
zzffnn, I like the scope your selling. Not sure if I want to get into figuring out my own light sources and stuff, but I do like the idea of doing darkfield right off the bat. I'll keep in in mind while looking at stuff.
Also, ya I wasn't going to buy it just cause of the stain picture, I just thought it looked really nice
Lastly, does anyone have any opinions on the Olympus CH series?
Again, sorry for all the questions, but you guys are a wealth of knowledge!
I'm close to the border however, and regularly ship things to a mailbox in the USA that I can pickup from, so it's not a huge deal for me. Just have to pay taxes at customs.
zzffnn, I like the scope your selling. Not sure if I want to get into figuring out my own light sources and stuff, but I do like the idea of doing darkfield right off the bat. I'll keep in in mind while looking at stuff.
Also, ya I wasn't going to buy it just cause of the stain picture, I just thought it looked really nice
Lastly, does anyone have any opinions on the Olympus CH series?
Again, sorry for all the questions, but you guys are a wealth of knowledge!
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Mik, my Phasestar went to Canada. If you are remotely interested I will
ask the member to contact you. I am not sure if it is for resale or parts, and I
prefer to keep his identity confidential. Oh, and it has 10X eyepieces!
Dale
ask the member to contact you. I am not sure if it is for resale or parts, and I
prefer to keep his identity confidential. Oh, and it has 10X eyepieces!
Dale
B&L Stereozoom 4. Nikon E600. AO Biostar 1820.
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Crater Eddie
- Posts: 1858
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:39 pm
- Location: Illinois USA
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Absolutely correct. And a small bottle of stain for that can be bought on Amazon, you can make much better slides than the one shown in that EBay listing. It isn't terrific stain, but does a pretty good job and isn't very expensive. But you have to learn how to make a proper blood smear slide, and how to use the stain properly.zzffnn wrote: Any good brightfield scope can produce that kind of blood stain image, by the way. An experienced microscopist can produce a better image than that eBay image with optics that are not as good. So you probably don't want to buy a scope just because it shows an image like that.
CE
Last edited by Crater Eddie on Mon May 23, 2016 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Olympus BH-2 / BHTU
LOMO BIOLAM L-2-2
LOMO POLAM L-213 / BIOLAM L-211 hybrid
LOMO Multiscope (Biolam)
Cameras: Canon T3i, Olympus E-P1 MFT, Amscope 3mp USB
LOMO BIOLAM L-2-2
LOMO POLAM L-213 / BIOLAM L-211 hybrid
LOMO Multiscope (Biolam)
Cameras: Canon T3i, Olympus E-P1 MFT, Amscope 3mp USB
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
MIK,
If you have my scope and Phil's light source, would you be able to put them together? Phil is in Canada and may be able to sell you his light source (for my AO4) or his complete scope (which may be better than mine).
Phil (his member name is Apochronaut) knows blood (Lyme) analysis very well.
If you have my scope and Phil's light source, would you be able to put them together? Phil is in Canada and may be able to sell you his light source (for my AO4) or his complete scope (which may be better than mine).
Phil (his member name is Apochronaut) knows blood (Lyme) analysis very well.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Thanks for the help everyone.
I'm going to spend a bit more time researching and looking around before I buy anything.
Just want to get a better handle on what's out there and at what prices, now that I have a basic idea of what I'm looking for.
I'm going to spend a bit more time researching and looking around before I buy anything.
Just want to get a better handle on what's out there and at what prices, now that I have a basic idea of what I'm looking for.
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apochronaut
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
Bright field Dark Field up to about 600X and phase contrast microscopy require only basic illumination( 15-30 watts or led equivalent).High magnification dark field requires higher illumination of 50-100 watts. The microstar microscope you linked to above cannot do high magnification dark field, without a rather complicated and speculative conversion to led.
Borrelia Burgdorferi are large enough and unique enough to be seen in any decent microscope, if they are there, Phase Contrast and DF are certainly assets for such imaging but good contrasty BF, or oblique BF should pick them up, as long as a skillful set up is employed, something that anyone can employ, with a little practice. It might not happen immediately but it will happen. With staining, even more so.
Your budget is slim for a good functional microscope and you can rule out DF and phase contrast at that price, unless( as Jim pointed out),you are willing to accept an older, horseshoe style microscope with a mirror and remote illuminator. With such a system, you could have BF, as well as high magnification DF but no phase contrast, because generally speaking, it did not exist at the time most of those instruments were made. There are a few around but you will never find them.
Shipping any microscope from the U.S. to Canada will run around 100.00 right now., so all of a sudden you have a very slim budget.
You really need to expand your budget a bit; not much. If you could get up to 350.00, then things could happen. You also have to be aware that 250.00 CDN. is only about 175.00 U.S. right now and since you are primarily entering a U.S. marketplace you need to think in terms of $U.S.
I will p.m. you.
Borrelia Burgdorferi are large enough and unique enough to be seen in any decent microscope, if they are there, Phase Contrast and DF are certainly assets for such imaging but good contrasty BF, or oblique BF should pick them up, as long as a skillful set up is employed, something that anyone can employ, with a little practice. It might not happen immediately but it will happen. With staining, even more so.
Your budget is slim for a good functional microscope and you can rule out DF and phase contrast at that price, unless( as Jim pointed out),you are willing to accept an older, horseshoe style microscope with a mirror and remote illuminator. With such a system, you could have BF, as well as high magnification DF but no phase contrast, because generally speaking, it did not exist at the time most of those instruments were made. There are a few around but you will never find them.
Shipping any microscope from the U.S. to Canada will run around 100.00 right now., so all of a sudden you have a very slim budget.
You really need to expand your budget a bit; not much. If you could get up to 350.00, then things could happen. You also have to be aware that 250.00 CDN. is only about 175.00 U.S. right now and since you are primarily entering a U.S. marketplace you need to think in terms of $U.S.
I will p.m. you.
Re: Newbie Here! Help Choosing a First Microscope Please!
The $250 I mentioned as a budget in an earlier post was in USD (figured it'd be mostly Americans here :p) and before any shipping. I'm definitely in the process of looking at expanding my budget. I'll take a look at your pm now.apochronaut wrote:Bright field Dark Field up to about 600X and phase contrast microscopy require only basic illumination( 15-30 watts or led equivalent).High magnification dark field requires higher illumination of 50-100 watts. The microstar microscope you linked to above cannot do high magnification dark field, without a rather complicated and speculative conversion to led.
Borrelia Burgdorferi are large enough and unique enough to be seen in any decent microscope, if they are there, Phase Contrast and DF are certainly assets for such imaging but good contrasty BF, or oblique BF should pick them up, as long as a skillful set up is employed, something that anyone can employ, with a little practice. It might not happen immediately but it will happen. With staining, even more so.
Your budget is slim for a good functional microscope and you can rule out DF and phase contrast at that price, unless( as Jim pointed out),you are willing to accept an older, horseshoe style microscope with a mirror and remote illuminator. With such a system, you could have BF, as well as high magnification DF but no phase contrast, because generally speaking, it did not exist at the time most of those instruments were made. There are a few around but you will never find them.
Shipping any microscope from the U.S. to Canada will run around 100.00 right now., so all of a sudden you have a very slim budget.
You really need to expand your budget a bit; not much. If you could get up to 350.00, then things could happen. You also have to be aware that 250.00 CDN. is only about 175.00 U.S. right now and since you are primarily entering a U.S. marketplace you need to think in terms of $U.S.
I will p.m. you.
EDIT: I can't respond to your PM on here because I'm too new to the forum... there must be a waiting period or a min. post count. I'll shoot you an email instead, so check your junk in case it ends up there. Thanks again.