Another DIC question

Here you can discuss different microscopic techniques and illumination methods, such as Brightfield, Darkfield, Phase Contrast, DIC, Oblique illumination, etc.
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Hobbyst46
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Re: Another DIC question

#31 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:51 pm

You are probably aware that the objective threads on a reflected light nosepiece might be different from threads on transmitted light nosepiece. There are adapters for such cases.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#32 Post by LouiseScot » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:42 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:51 pm
You are probably aware that the objective threads on a reflected light nosepiece might be different from threads on transmitted light nosepiece. There are adapters for such cases.
They are RMS threads - according to the seller. I put a bid in for the turret - which I've asked to change to just make an offer...
It will give me something to play with if I get it :)

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Scarodactyl
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Re: Another DIC question

#33 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:32 pm

Most models will allow you to pull the prisms out of the light path. The prisms cause unpleasant doubling when they're present in other imaging modes.
I'm a bit curious which model it is, but I can understand not wanting to link it during negotiations as it were.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#34 Post by LouiseScot » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:14 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:32 pm
Most models will allow you to pull the prisms out of the light path. The prisms cause unpleasant doubling when they're present in other imaging modes.
I'm a bit curious which model it is, but I can understand not wanting to link it during negotiations as it were.
I believe it's a dic turret for an Optiphot (M plan), so quite old. There's a thumbscrew on each prism - presumably to move the prisms in and out though I'm not sure.

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

eKretz2
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Re: Another DIC question

#35 Post by eKretz2 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:45 pm

Some allow you to remove the prisms from the path completely, others just translate the prism but don't remove it. The threads for brightfield only objectives are usually but not always RMS, but always smaller than the BD. Brightfield/darkfield are the big ones.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#36 Post by LouiseScot » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:22 pm

eKretz2 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:45 pm
Some allow you to remove the prisms from the path completely, others just translate the prism but don't remove it. The threads for brightfield only objectives are usually but not always RMS, but always smaller than the BD. Brightfield/darkfield are the big ones.
The one I'm interested in is RMS. I don't think the prisms are easily removeable. I was more concerned about spacing between the prisms and the objectives and whether I'd still be able to use my CFI60 20x and 40x objectives (with adapters). Also, what would be the best prism to use in the condenser for transmitted light DIC. I suppose, if I do get it, I'll just have to have a play and see what I can do empirically :)

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#37 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:32 pm
Most models will allow you to pull the prisms out of the light path. The prisms cause unpleasant doubling when they're present in other imaging modes.
I'm a bit curious which model it is, but I can understand not wanting to link it during negotiations as it were.
It's this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224515344198


Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Another DIC question

#38 Post by viktor j nilsson » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:13 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:32 pm
Most models will allow you to pull the prisms out of the light path. The prisms cause unpleasant doubling when they're present in other imaging modes.
I'm a bit curious which model it is, but I can understand not wanting to link it during negotiations as it were.
It's this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224515344198


Louise
That's the one I have. Getting the prisms out requires a bit of effort, the screws are locked in with adhesive. Probably alcohol soluble, or so I have heard after I worked on mine. I got mine out with brute force, but stripped one of the screws so bad that I almost couldn't get it out. So it's probably worth adding a drop of alcohol and letting it sit for a while.

The prisms are not meant to be removable on this model, they are always in the light path.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#39 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:30 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:13 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:32 pm
Most models will allow you to pull the prisms out of the light path. The prisms cause unpleasant doubling when they're present in other imaging modes.
I'm a bit curious which model it is, but I can understand not wanting to link it during negotiations as it were.
It's this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224515344198


Louise
That's the one I have. Getting the prisms out requires a bit of effort, the screws are locked in with adhesive. Probably alcohol soluble, or so I have heard after I worked on mine. I got mine out with brute force, but stripped one of the screws so bad that I almost couldn't get it out. So it's probably worth adding a drop of alcohol and letting it sit for a while.

The prisms are not meant to be removable on this model, they are always in the light path.
That's what I suspected. When I get it I'll try and use the turret as is - fingers crossed!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Scarodactyl
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Re: Another DIC question

#40 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:48 pm

Interesting. I haven't tried this model--it's kind of telling that they went from this sort of layout to the (once again I say, mechanically horrible) lever-driven model and then to simple sliders.
This should be a fun project! I'll look forward to your results.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#41 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:48 pm
Interesting. I haven't tried this model--it's kind of telling that they went from this sort of layout to the (once again I say, mechanically horrible) lever-driven model and then to simple sliders.
This should be a fun project! I'll look forward to your results.
Thanks! Don't hold your breath! I'll be on the case asap. I'll have to do some engineering (=3d printing) in order to try and incorporate the turret into my existing infinity rail system first. An actual Optiphot would be good but they can be quite expensive! e.g. https://www.spachoptics.com/NIKON-OPTIP ... 66-dic.htm
- especially with shipping and taxes from the US... I'm a beggar rather than a chooser :)

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#42 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:37 pm

This Labophot has the same turret https://www.ebay.com/itm/202652540130?f ... irect=true
Expensive too!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Hobbyst46
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Re: Another DIC question

#43 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:37 pm
This Labophot has the same turret https://www.ebay.com/itm/202652540130?f ... irect=true
Expensive too!

Louise
And there is volume pricing... three DIC Optiphots on the shelf... :?

Scarodactyl
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Re: Another DIC question

#44 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:25 pm

I modeled an adapter for labophot nosepieces (to put one on a Wild M420 head). It's a bit involved because the dovetail butts up against the slanted nosepiece but I had an original holder to take notes from. I could provide a model of just the nikon nosepiece part if you'd like.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#45 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:28 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:37 pm
This Labophot has the same turret https://www.ebay.com/itm/202652540130?f ... irect=true
Expensive too!

Louise
And there is volume pricing... three DIC Optiphots on the shelf... :?
All expensive!
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#46 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:45 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:25 pm
I modeled an adapter for labophot nosepieces (to put one on a Wild M420 head). It's a bit involved because the dovetail butts up against the slanted nosepiece but I had an original holder to take notes from. I could provide a model of just the nikon nosepiece part if you'd like.
Ooh that might be useful - .f3d? (fusion 360). I'll probably be coupling mine to a T2 (M42 x 0.75) thread

Presumably one has to make an adapter to this:
DIC Turret.jpg
DIC Turret.jpg (83.55 KiB) Viewed 8376 times

Louise

Edit: I'll have a closer look when I get it :)
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Another DIC question

#47 Post by viktor j nilsson » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:02 am

LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:45 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:25 pm
I modeled an adapter for labophot nosepieces (to put one on a Wild M420 head). It's a bit involved because the dovetail butts up against the slanted nosepiece but I had an original holder to take notes from. I could provide a model of just the nikon nosepiece part if you'd like.
Ooh that might be useful - .f3d? (fusion 360). I'll probably be coupling mine to a T2 (M42 x 0.75) thread

Presumably one has to make an adapter to this:

DIC Turret.jpg


Louise

Edit: I'll have a closer look when I get it :)
So you already bought it?

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#48 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:18 am

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:02 am
LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:45 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:25 pm
I modeled an adapter for labophot nosepieces (to put one on a Wild M420 head). It's a bit involved because the dovetail butts up against the slanted nosepiece but I had an original holder to take notes from. I could provide a model of just the nikon nosepiece part if you'd like.
Ooh that might be useful - .f3d? (fusion 360). I'll probably be coupling mine to a T2 (M42 x 0.75) thread

Presumably one has to make an adapter to this:

DIC Turret.jpg


Louise

Edit: I'll have a closer look when I get it :)
So you already bought it?
Yes - I bought an identical one that was on sale in the uk. I should have made it clear that the one I posted a link to wasn't the actual one I was interested in. The one I bought was a lot cheaper! I should get it by Monday, depending on the post...

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Another DIC question

#49 Post by viktor j nilsson » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:00 am

LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:18 am
viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:02 am
LouiseScot wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:45 pm


Ooh that might be useful - .f3d? (fusion 360). I'll probably be coupling mine to a T2 (M42 x 0.75) thread

Presumably one has to make an adapter to this:

DIC Turret.jpg


Louise

Edit: I'll have a closer look when I get it :)
So you already bought it?
Yes - I bought an identical one that was on sale in the uk. I should have made it clear that the one I posted a link to wasn't the actual one I was interested in. The one I bought was a lot cheaper! I should get it by Monday, depending on the post...

Louise
Hey, that sounds fantastic! So much better when you can find stuff locally these days.
I think you will enjoy having these Nomarski prisms to play with. Super happy to help if there is anything I can do.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#50 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:25 am

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:00 am
LouiseScot wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:18 am
viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:02 am


So you already bought it?
Yes - I bought an identical one that was on sale in the uk. I should have made it clear that the one I posted a link to wasn't the actual one I was interested in. The one I bought was a lot cheaper! I should get it by Monday, depending on the post...

Louise
Hey, that sounds fantastic! So much better when you can find stuff locally these days.
I think you will enjoy having these Nomarski prisms to play with. Super happy to help if there is anything I can do.
Oh, thanks! That's very kind of you! I'd had my eye on it for a few weeks but there didn't seem to be any interest in it. That may have been partly because the seller didn't say what microscope the nosepiece was for. It took me a while to figure it out for myself. I messaged him to ask if there was anything wrong with it and questioned why no interest. He said he was mystified! Anyway, fingers crossed it is ok. You may remember I've been trying to get the polycarbonate prisms to work on a prototype setup but it's difficult without anything to go by, compare to. The nosepiece might help me. If I can maybe use a polycarbonate prism as a condenser prism, that would be good!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Another DIC question

#51 Post by viktor j nilsson » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:15 pm

LouiseScot wrote:You may remember I've been trying to get the polycarbonate prisms to work on a prototype setup but it's difficult without anything to go by, compare to. The nosepiece might help me. If I can maybe use a polycarbonate prism as a condenser prism, that would be good!
I think this might be a great approach: use one real Nomarkski prism together with an adjustable Sanderson prism. Much fewer moving parts than two Sanderson prisms, and much more adjustable than a system with only Nomarski prism. Really loking forward to seeing how this goes.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#52 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:41 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:15 pm
LouiseScot wrote:You may remember I've been trying to get the polycarbonate prisms to work on a prototype setup but it's difficult without anything to go by, compare to. The nosepiece might help me. If I can maybe use a polycarbonate prism as a condenser prism, that would be good!
I think this might be a great approach: use one real Nomarkski prism together with an adjustable Sanderson prism. Much fewer moving parts than two Sanderson prisms, and much more adjustable than a system with only Nomarski prism. Really loking forward to seeing how this goes.
I'll be sure to post if I can get a result!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

PeteM
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Re: Another DIC question

#53 Post by PeteM » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:56 pm

I share Viktor's optimism, Louise. My expeience with non-OEM prisms has been that placement above the objective is problematic. You need to get both the right shear angles and at the right distance from the back focal plane of the objectives. All in a confined space that doesn't invite DIY solutions.

With the condenser location there's more room and easier placement of prisms. If they're a bit off, the prism can be adjusted in and out and the condenser up and down a bit. Note also that some systems use a slit aperture in this location. With a prism that slides back and forth along the correct axis, at some point you reach the edge of the prism and (effectively) have a slit. In between there are often wonderful DIC, coloring, and oblique effects.

For example, I've been working with a Leica DMLB with a proper "D" prism above the objectives and a design of my own in the condenser. A single sliding prism there provides comparable (actually wider) 3D effects to having the proper K2 and K3 prisms and even approaches K1 at the low end and K4 at the high end. Took a while to find the right prism, though. I suspect your Sanderson prisms, if you can get the shear angles close and the effect somewhat even, might prove just as adaptable.

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Another DIC question

#54 Post by viktor j nilsson » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:13 pm

Good point, Pete. It would be wise to put the nomarski prisms above the objective and keep the Sanderson prisms at the condenser BFP. By moving the objective-side nomarski prism, or using different nomarski prisms that differ in the location of their interference fringe, you should be able to match the location of the back focal plane of your objectives really well. This seems to be the one thing that's really hard to achieve with the Sanderson prisms, except for low magnification objectives with BFPs outside the objective. At the condenser side, the BFP is much more accessible.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#55 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:51 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:13 pm
Good point, Pete. It would be wise to put the nomarski prisms above the objective and keep the Sanderson prisms at the condenser BFP. By moving the objective-side nomarski prism, or using different nomarski prisms that differ in the location of their interference fringe, you should be able to match the location of the back focal plane of your objectives really well. This seems to be the one thing that's really hard to achieve with the Sanderson prisms, except for low magnification objectives with BFPs outside the objective. At the condenser side, the BFP is much more accessible.
The idea with the sanderson prisms is to use extra lenses in a 2f relay configuration in order to shift the bfp to outside the higher power objectives as per Rathi et al's paper. However, they had a working Olympus with DIC which made it easier to set up. I figure if I have the nosepiece objective prisms in situ then, hopefully, I should be able to confirm operation and correct positioning of the condenser Sanderson prism. If that works ok I should have a better chance of setting up the Sanderson prisms as objective prisms also. For now, one step at a time!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#56 Post by LouiseScot » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:07 pm

It came this afternoon! :) Looks ok at a glance - a few small marks on the prisms. Hopefully, they won't be a problem. It even came in a blue Nikon box! One thing though, I can't rotate the nosepiece to select different objectives :( There is a small, round, central cover which maybe hides a bolt? And, if so, loosening it slightly will do the trick? I've never handled a disembodied nosepiece before so am a bit in the dark... It looks very clean which is encouraging.

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Hobbyst46
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Re: Another DIC question

#57 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:11 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:07 pm
It came this afternoon! :) Looks ok at a glance - a few small marks on the prisms. Hopefully, they won't be a problem. It even came in a blue Nikon box! One thing though, I can't rotate the nosepiece to select different objectives :( There is a small, round, central cover which maybe hides a bolt? And, if so, loosening it slightly will do the trick? I've never handled a disembodied nosepiece before so am a bit in the dark... It looks very clean which is encouraging.

Louise
On my Zeiss nosepiece, the central bolt is a "reversed" thread - it is loosened by turning it clockwise, contrary to common screws.
And, if loosened completely, must be done over a towel or a wide bowl, to prevent spreading and loss of the dozens of tiny balls from the inside bearing.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Another DIC question

#58 Post by Scarodactyl » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:23 pm

Sounds like frozen grease, yeah. Opening that bolt will probably get you in there but there will be a billion tiny bearings exposed as hobbyst said. Proceed cautiously.

LouiseScot
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Re: Another DIC question

#59 Post by LouiseScot » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:28 pm

I don't want loads of mini ball bearings shooting everywhere! I've not tried doing anything with it yet. If I take the central 'cap' off then that will reveal a slotted bolt head? And I could just try slightly loosening it rather than risk taking it out? I messaged the seller and he says its 'brand new' though I guess that just means unused (for whatever reason!). It occurred to me that warming it slightly might be just enough to release it. The seller agreed. So I'll have a go tomorrow :)

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Hobbyst46
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Re: Another DIC question

#60 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:20 pm

A trick that worked for me once was adding a tiny drop of light machine oil along the rim of the moving part, and let it penetrate into the bearing (without warming). Too much oil will make it run too freely, though.

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