Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

What is your microscopy history? What are your interests? What equipment do you use?
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cheaptoad
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Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#1 Post by cheaptoad » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:13 pm

I'm a retired elementary teacher and ever since I started teaching I wanted a stereo microscope. I'm thinking that time may be now. I'll be using the microscope just as a hobby, so no need to spend thousands. Of course best bang for your buck is a good thing. I'd also like to be able to view and save images to my computer and or laptop to print at a later time. Reading these forums I figured out resolution is very important.

I can afford between $500 to $700.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx
CT

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#2 Post by apochronaut » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:15 am

You can get a pretty good microscope for that amount. If you end up heading in the direction of some of the Chinese or Korean made models, pay special attention to the claims of magnification that are made. Usually the objective paired with a 10X eyepiece will give you the maximum possible magnification . When you see an almost identical instrument from the same maker that all of a sudden claims twice the magnification, it is because they have included a 20X eyepiece in the kit. Very few stereos can utilize a 20X eyepiece without a severe loss in resolution, so don't waste money on hollow claims of magnification.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#3 Post by Crater Eddie » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:36 am

Welcome to the forum! What kinds of things are you interested in looking at?
CE
Olympus BH-2 / BHTU
LOMO BIOLAM L-2-2
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Cameras: Canon T3i, Olympus E-P1 MFT, Amscope 3mp USB

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#4 Post by cheaptoad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:46 am

Crater Eddie wrote:Welcome to the forum! What kinds of things are you interested in looking at?
CE
Hmmm Interesting question.

While teaching I owned several birds. Feathers always interested me. So, that would be one thing.
Dust is also an interesting item.
Insects must be including in the equation

It will also depend on how much I can enlarge an item. When I was into photography I would always look for repeating patterns. I know you can find those in plants and insects.

Mostly just love to explore.

I'm open to suggestions also.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#5 Post by cheaptoad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:47 am

apochronaut wrote:You can get a pretty good microscope for that amount. If you end up heading in the direction of some of the Chinese or Korean made models, pay special attention to the claims of magnification that are made. Usually the objective paired with a 10X eyepiece will give you the maximum possible magnification . When you see an almost identical instrument from the same maker that all of a sudden claims twice the magnification, it is because they have included a 20X eyepiece in the kit. Very few stereos can utilize a 20X eyepiece without a severe loss in resolution, so don't waste money on hollow claims of magnification.

Could you give me a few places and scopes I could look at?

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#6 Post by apochronaut » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:35 pm

A few things to consider.

You would need to choose one of the 4 below.
There are 4 types of stereo microscopes.
( all objective magnifications quoted are for the objective only, which is usually coupled with a 10x eyepiece to give a product of magnification)

The first has a fixed magnification. 1x, 2x and 3x are common.
The second has the facility to change the objective manually with in some cases 6 or more different magnifications. .7x,1x,2x,3x,4x,5x, 6x,7x,8x. etc.
The third has an objective changer, sometimes similar to that employed on a "compound microscope" but it can be in other forms too, such as a rotating drum or slide on a dovetail. They usually carry 3 magnifications but other objectives can be loaded into the changer, so the range is theoretically the same as above depending on what the manufacturer offered.
The fourth has what are called zoom optics, where the magnification is continuous. 1x-3x is common but down to .7x and up to 7x are also common.

None of these has an edge in terms of optical performance, although with the exception of some extremely expensive modern ones, zoom instruments usually sacrifice a little in quality, to be able to have the zoom feature. There are a few older ones with objective changers that are superior to most average to above average grade zoom types but most people find the convenience of zoom too much to resist.
Generally speaking, with average to good grades of stereo microscopes the useful range of total magnifications is from just below 10x to around 40x. Above 40x there is a loss of contrast and the illumination must be very high to give good imaging. I have had numerous good instruments around me for years, capable of anywhere from 40-200x and I seldom use anything much above 40x. Sometimes I use up to 60 or 70x but I usually prefer to use a set up on an incident compound microscope instead. However, a microscope designed to give a zoom range of 10x-60x , will give better imaging at 40x, than one from the same maker, made for a 10x-40x zoom range.

The second thing is, do you want or think you will need illumination from above AND below?
Many stereos are set up to use incident or reflected lighting only. Some use one or more remote lights, some use a ringlight, which surrounds the objective and some use coaxial illumination, where the light passes down through the objective.
They all however can also be set up or modified to receive light from below as well, for transmitted illumination, similar to that common on high power biological microscopes and they can be set up to use both incident and transmitted at once .

The third thing is, do you want a fixed base instrument, one on an articulating arm or one on a boom stand?
If you are going to be looking at an entire large object of any kind and you have a decent table or bench to work on, you might consider a boom stand or at least an articulating arm. It is hard to set up an instrument on a boom stand, to take advantage of transmitted illumination but it can be done. Those on articulating arms, at least the ones I am familiar with, are easily set up for transmitted illumination.

It's a lot to consider but those kind of decisions, need to be made before you can focus on your various choices.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#7 Post by charlie g » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:49 pm

Welcome to forum! Are you con-US..shipping is an issue. charlie guevara

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#8 Post by cheaptoad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:29 pm

charlie g wrote:Welcome to forum! Are you con-US..shipping is an issue. charlie guevara
If New Jersey is still considered part of the Continental us, I am.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#9 Post by cheaptoad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Apochronaut,
Thanks for the reply. It never knew there was so much to think about.

1.I do like the idea of being able to change the objective.
2. I really liked the ones with the ring lights. Nice even lighting.
3. As far as the base, I'm not leaning one way or another. At the moment the only place to use it is at my smallish computer desk. I'll probably be buying a dedicated desk just to use for my new hobby. I'd love to hear suggestions on types of desks also.

I hope this helps you being able to help me.

Thanx
Ct

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#10 Post by PeteM » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:59 am

Two of the best bargains in used stereo scopes are (IMO) the Bausch & Lomb Microzoom and the American Optical "Cycloptic."

Look for one in good cosmetic condition (some shop applications such as soldering left scars on both the metal and the optics) and from a supplier who will take it back if the images are not aligned.

I've bought about a dozen of these for a kids' program. The B&L tend to have broken mirrors. The AO tend to have detached (and soon shattered) prisms and sometimes broken detent springs. But find one from a seller who will look through at something like an "x" on paper and see if the images fuse and you should get a mechanically excellent and optically very good stereo microscope for under $200.

A variety of stands are available -- find one that meets your needs.

A cheap gooseneck LED light is a good supplement even if you add a ring light.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#11 Post by cheaptoad » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:50 pm

What about something like this

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/400429169625

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#12 Post by Crater Eddie » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:15 pm

I have one of those on my lab bench at work. Its adequate for what I use it for, mostly small parts inspection. The MA500 5mp USB camera that we got with it is a less than stellar performer. I have the LED ring light instead of the fluorescent, its ok. The adjustable intensity is handy.
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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#13 Post by apochronaut » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:41 pm

PeteM wrote:Two of the best bargains in used stereo scopes are (IMO) the Bausch & Lomb Microzoom and the American Optical "Cycloptic."
You probably mean a Bausch & Lomb Stereozoom, Pete. The Microzoom was an industrial microscope with L.W.D., R.M.S. objectives built primarily for working with circuits etc.

Here are a few used ones I see that I like, with just with a quick look.

For a basic 10-45x zoom, it would be hard to beat this, at the price. VWR is a quality oriented company. I have some of their higher end slides, which I use for DF. If this instrument passes muster for them, then it is probably pretty good. It has a 22mm f.o.v., which is very good for an instrument at that price.
It is for incident illumination only but that's o.k. too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-VWR-Vista-V ... SwpLNX8-dE

B & L ASZ45. again a 10-45x zoom. The ASZ has facility for incident and transmitted illumination but not combined.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bausch-Lomb-Ste ... SwmgJY1FZy

AO 569 7-30x with the transmitted illumination base. Look to be in really good shape. Will need the addition of one or two illuminators but pretty easy to source. There are a lot of originals around or as suggested led goosenecks work pretty good.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXCELLENT-AO-56 ... SwXYtYv0Cf

Olympus SZ3060. 9-40X zoom. Will need a transformer for the illuminator but pretty easy to find.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-SZ3060- ... Sw4CFY2o3L

Watson Greenough stereo. A really clean, English Watson stereo , with 3 objectives on a turret changer. It is set up for both incident and transmitted light. Watson made very fine microscopes. Magnifies 8.75x, 17.5x and 35x, in three increments. It could probably take other eyepieces up to about 15x, for other magnifications, too. Would need a light source.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Refurbished-Vin ... SwofxUdnO1


Bausch & Lomb stereozoom 7 on a small boom stand. Light needed . SZ 7 was their flagship stereo microscope. Will need a light.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAUSCH-LOMB-STE ... Swax5YxOH3


The new microscopes from Amscope and Precision World, as well as a few others are always discounted, so don't think that you are getting a limited time offer. There are lots of different permutations of the same microscopes but generally there are only a few basic microscope pods that get altered in various ways for marketing purposes. There seems to be a body with manually interchangeable objectives; I've seen 1x and 2x but there are likely others too; a body with a 1x and 3x rotatable objective or a a 2x and 4x rotatable objective ; two, slightly different .7x-4.5x zoom bodies; a .8x-5x zoom body and an el primo .8x-8x body. It is possible I have missed one but I have looked and I don't see one. Perhaps there is one from Korea that is a little different.
All other stated magnification ranges are by virtue of adding or subtracting magnification with additional barlow lenses or higher magnification eyepieces. Using a barlow to reduce magnification is o.k., if it is well made but increasing magnification beyond the objective's capacity, especially if you are paying top dollar for the added lenses is usually futile. Many variations also have other small changes. Amscope alone has 2309 different permutations of stereo microscopes, over 60 pages... It's like they threw every possible alteration they had or could cheaply produce for a stereo microscope into a hat and then made every possible combination of them into a model. They seem to have figured out, that if you confuse the customer enough, they will eventually throw up their hands and buy SOMETHING, at least.
One of my favourites is the 2x-225x continuous zoom stereo microscope. Discounted now, as always by 50% it claims 2-225X continuous zoom, something that only recently Nikon and possibly a few others have mastered in instruments costing 6 figures. In fact, the instrument does not have a continuous zoom ratio of .2x-22.5x , as should be the case if one believes the hype, it has only a .7x-45x zoom ratio just like a bunch of other of their microscopes but through the sleight of hand of a .3x barlow, a 2x barlow and a 25x eyepiece, they seem to think they can make such an absurd claim.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#14 Post by apochronaut » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:02 pm

cheaptoad wrote:What about something like this

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/400429169625
I would be shy of anything getting it's magnification range from either a barlow or high power eyepieces. One of the things that raises a red flag is the statement.
" see the difference in the above picture"
The pictures are terrible. The low magnification one has enough chromatic aberration to colour a Chinese fireworks display and the high magnification one has been so digitally sharpened, that you can see the pixels.

13:1 zoom is a lie. it is, 6.5:1 in two separate increments.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#15 Post by cheaptoad » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:32 pm

Could you guys link a few better scopes then the one I picked so I have a frame if reference.

For now let's go with me getting a new one.


Thanx
Ct

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#16 Post by apochronaut » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:08 pm

Since you linked to a boom microscope, is that the kind you are looking for?

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#17 Post by cheaptoad » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:56 pm

Bottom line is this. I want a good inexpensive Scope. I'm really relying on your expertise on helping me with a quality manufacturer with good specs.

I'm not in love with any particular type. The one I posed looked very cool and the fact that I could move it around easily sounded like a nice feature.

Something that I could grow with would also appeal to me.

Buying used does scare me a bit, especially with something I'm not well versed in yet.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#18 Post by zzffnn » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:00 pm

cheaptoad,

If photography and photo quality is important to you, you should NOT buy a stereo (dissecting) microscope at your budget. It is not impossible, but getting good photos out of stereo scope requires the best (and very expensive generally > $1000) stereo scopes. And that is a used price. Not new.

I would suggest a compound (with RMS no cover slip M type objectives and turret), metallurgical scope with relatively long working distance (especially important for objective over 20x), based on your subjects of interest.Image quality of a compound scope would be easily at least equal to an expensive stereo scope. Usually much better. But a long working distance 20x objective can easily go over $150 used. So if budget is tight, you would want to stay at or below 10x objective (with 10x eyepieces, it provides 100x total magnification).

A scope like this would work for you (but that particular one is for parts only, so too risky for you as a newbie):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLYMPUS-BHMJ-UN ... SwtJZXWEXS

Nikon, Swift and other brands made similar "inspection microscopes", " measuring microscope ", or "tool makers microscope" like that one. Nikon MM-11 is a more stable scope, than the Olympus BHMJ above. http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=33676

I bought a similar Nikon focus block (head only without base/stand) for $140 used but have had a hard time finding a fitting stand for it, as its column hole is unusually small (you want hole size of 1.25" or more to use more common column/stands, my Nikon takes 24.5mm diameter pole at max). There are workaround for it, for $70 I think. So cost is at least $200 used, more likely $300 without optics. Still, some additional machinist work is needed for best results, in my case. And I already have most objectives.

And note ability to move around contradicts with stability/rigidity and image quality at high magnification. You can only have one or the other. Also, almost none senior macro/micro photographers use ring light - they are photographically too flat. At high magnification of over 20x objective magnification, you either use super long working distance objectives and incident oblique light, or get epi illuminator and use through-the-objective epi darkfield illumination.

Forum member RudiV is going the metallurgical compound scope route. Follow him : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4738&p=43219#p43219
He is in the forum of photomacrography.net as well.

Also read about Charles Krebs' Nikon MM-11 rig and similar rigs:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=17656&

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... on&start=0

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=33676

You may also join that forum and ask there. As you can see, people at that forum have lots of experience on topics related to yours.
Last edited by zzffnn on Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:12 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#19 Post by apochronaut » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:51 pm

cheaptoad wrote:Bottom line is this. I want a good inexpensive Scope. I'm really relying on your expertise on helping me with a quality manufacturer with good specs.

I'm not in love with any particular type. The one I posed looked very cool and the fact that I could move it around easily sounded like a nice feature.

Something that I could grow with would also appeal to me.

Buying used does scare me a bit, especially with something I'm not well versed in yet.
That is understandable but it's pretty well established that you can get a bigger bang for your buck with high grade used microscopes.

Maybe carefully read what I wrote to you above , about the types of stereo microscopes and identify what your needs are, or find some other information that you like better that will provide you with an understanding of how to choose a microscope, for your needs. There is no such thing as a generic microscope. Do you need a boom stand?, do you need illumination from below as well as from above? Do you need magnification above 40x?, Do you want a camera attached? You need to clarify in your head, answers to these and other questions, otherwise you might as well just play pin the tail on the microscope.
You are kind of asking people to recommend some examples of what to buy but that is impossible because you haven't identified yet, what needs you have. Not every microscope is convertible or can be adapted ,altered or upgraded for other uses in the future. Chinese scopes are very low on the scale in that regard, especially the stereos and when you come to upgrade, if you can, the original bargain disappears pretty fast.

The microscope you linked to for instance, has a boom stand but would be difficult to adapt in the future for transmitted illumination( from below). It also has no stage. It is designed to hover over the work, rather than have the work placed under it's objective. Maybe do a bit of research and refine your needs. There presumably isn't any rush, is there?
Last edited by apochronaut on Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#20 Post by PeteM » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:17 am

apochronaut wrote:
PeteM wrote:Two of the best bargains in used stereo scopes are (IMO) the Bausch & Lomb Microzoom and the American Optical "Cycloptic."
You probably mean a Bausch & Lomb Stereozoom, Pete. The Microzoom was . . .
Yep, thanks for the correction. Also once had a Microzoom, but it was too bulky to earn a place either in my shop or the kids' program.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#21 Post by 75RR » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:23 am

Hi cheaptoad,
Given that this is effectively your first microscope whether it is going to be a Stereoscope or a Compound one, it is perhaps best not to be thinking at this stage of locating your 'last one'.
Rather, you should be thinking of it as your starter scope, an initial microscope that will allow you to enter the world of microscopy and begin to develop the experience that will allow you to either find or build that final one.
What seems to be a severe overload of unintelligible jargon at the moment will quickly become clearer as you gain hands-on skills.

Most microscopists tend to end up with at least one Compound and one Stereo microscope; I think you will find as most of us have, that one of each, which covers a range of viewing from a few dozen millimeters to a few dozen microns, is just about right.

Best bang for your buck will be from a used quality microscope.
There are members of this forum that can either sell you a spare one or provide help in finding one.
That should eliminate the uncertainty that purchasing a used microscope can cause.

You may find this article on purchasing a first Compound microscope, useful:
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... oscope.pdf
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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#22 Post by cheaptoad » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:32 pm

Good point. I'd much rather buy a used microscope from someone on these forums then on ebay. I should just link this thread in that format.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#23 Post by apochronaut » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:09 pm

I've got a couple of AO StereoStar Zooms: a 570 7x-42x with 10x W.F., eyepieces, and a 580 10x-60x with 10x W.F. eyepieces. I can sell either of them.
I have the standard bench top stand and I a brand new transmitted illumination base to go with each one, as well as the illuminator and power supply with either an incandescent or led bulb inside.

Here's a link to an older manual but I don't think it covers the 580. The 580 is a bigger instrument with more magnification and a broader zoom range.

https://mightyohm.com/wiki/_media/resou ... atalog.pdf

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#24 Post by cheaptoad » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:43 pm

apochronaut wrote:I've got a couple of AO StereoStar Zooms: a 570 7x-42x with 10x W.F., eyepieces, and a 580 10x-60x with 10x W.F. eyepieces. I can sell either of them.
I have the standard bench top stand and I a brand new transmitted illumination base to go with each one, as well as the illuminator and power supply with either an incandescent or led bulb inside.

Here's a link to an older manual but I don't think it covers the 580. The 580 is a bigger instrument with more magnification and a broader zoom range.

https://mightyohm.com/wiki/_media/resou ... atalog.pdf

I'd like to hear more about the 580

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#25 Post by apochronaut » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:02 am

I will try to p.m. you. I think it should work, even though you are a new member. I think new members can't message out for a while.

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Re: Newb just joined this forum and is looking for advice on a new microscope

#26 Post by GladysMorgan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:28 pm

I'm new here too! Looking for a good microscope for beginners, any suggestions are more than welcome.

Cheers, Gladys
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