Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

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VanessaAngelina
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Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#1 Post by VanessaAngelina » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:41 pm

Hi everyone,

After doing lots of research to help me decide on my first microscope, I have finally narrowed down my options to two microscopes. I am not sure which one to get and was wondering if someone can give me some advice, please.

For background, I am only just starting out with microscopy. After doing astrophotography for a few years, I'm keen to take up a hobby that is not so weather-dependent. I'm particularly interested in photomicrography at this stage, photographing biological specimens and starting with brightfield and phase contrast, and eventually moving on to more advanced techniques.

The options I'm looking at are:

Option 1: The Optico N120MT-SP ADVANCED Trinocular Microscope (https://microscopes.com.au/collections/ ... microscope) with the Optico PLAN Phase Contrast Kit (https://microscopes.com.au/products/opt ... microscope).

Option 2: Optico XSZ-107T-PHB Phase Contrast Microscope (PLAN Objectives) (https://microscopes.com.au/collections/ ... microscope). The supplier advised that the Phase Contrast PLAN objectives can be used for brightfield as well.

I have about a 2k budget (Australian), so both options are feasible. I want to make the right investment from the get-go, as this is something I will be using for a very long time! So, I'm wondering:

1) Which microscope is better suited to grow with me as I explore different imaging techniques?
2) Is the price difference worth it?

Also, please note that I've had a hard time finding microscopes here in Australia. Most brands are Celestron or Saxon, with the higher-end brands like Zeiss, Nikon, etc. being out of my budget. I have not explored a used option because I wouldn't know what to look for to ensure I'm getting good equipment. I did explore some AM Scope options but shipping from the US alone is worth an extra US$250. Plus, I prefer to buy from a local supplier so as to take advantage of the warranty and be able to ship it back to them with relative ease if something happens.

Anyhoo, any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you! 🙂

Vanessa
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Microworld Steve
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#2 Post by Microworld Steve » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:35 am

For what the price is I would go with the OMANO OM159T. It has 5 objectives and it's worth more than the selling price.
https://www.amazon.com/Omano-OM159T-Tri ... B006I6XBTC
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#3 Post by PeteM » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:57 am

Somewhat depends on what you want to view. The second scope has phase contrast, which makes it much easier to see near-transparent cells; things like protists or unstained plant and animal cells. Phase contrast, however, has a sort of halo effect that have some photographers prefer using methods like darkfield instead for photos.

For that money, you might see if there is a local microscope group that can help you sort through used options.

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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#4 Post by apochronaut » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:01 am

The seller is only partially correct in telling you that you can use phase contrast objectives for BF. You can use them and will get a useable image but the quality of the image is degraded by spherical aberration and there is a loss of contrast to boot.. Once you are used to phase contrast you won't want to use BF much with the loss in quality entailed.

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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#5 Post by VanessaAngelina » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:16 am

@Microworld Steve -- Thanks for your reply and for the suggestion but the Amazon link says that scope is currently unavailable. I also want to buy something local because of the warranty and ease of shipping it if I need it looked at.

@PeteM -- Thanks for your reply. I would like to do darkfield eventually but I want to get my head around the easier techniques first. I can also order a separate phase contrast kit for the 1st scope, that way I can do both brightfield and phase contrast from the get-go but I'm not sure if the price difference is worth that if I can also do both techniques with the 2nd scope. What do you think? I did have a look for local clubs but except for the Australian Microscopy and Microanalysis Society (very technical), nothing else exists. I'm sure there are some clubs but they must be very 'underground', as I haven't found them.

@apochronaut -- Thanks for your input. Is the loss of quality you mentioned for BF also present in BF objectives or only when doing BF through phase contrast objectives? If I wanted to do BF, would I be better off using BF objectives (instead of doing BF through phase contrast objectives)?

Thanks again for all of your replies. 😊
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#6 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:22 am

VanessaAngelina wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:41 pm
...I'm particularly interested in photomicrography at this stage, photographing biological specimens and starting with brightfield and phase contrast, and eventually moving on to more advanced techniques.]). The supplier advised that the Phase Contrast PLAN objectives can be used for brightfield as well....
I want to make the right investment from the get-go, as this is something I will be using for a very long time!
Hello,
It appears that you are interested in a system microscope ("more advanced techniques"). From the very brief descriptions in the two links, I could not understand if either of these microscope sources offers future expansion:
1) Kohler illumination.
2) A reasonable selection of objectives.
3) Other condensers than Abbe - achromat, darkfield, DIC...
4) Light sources.

Also, neither microscope offers options for epi-illumination.

Also, since your aim is photography, the installation of a camera should be considered. Especially since both microscopes have 160mm optics. There are several potential solutions; I would suggest to look into past threads about Bresser microscopes on this forum; customer service might be needed.

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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#7 Post by Roldorf » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:36 am

As far as I can see there are no Bresser dealers in Australia. :cry:

Also dark-field microscopy is not a difficult or expensive technique, just the addition of dark-field stops under the condenser. The stops can be made by hand with a felt tip pen and some clear plastic.
Better of course with the addition of 'microscope brand specific' dark-field condenser if available.
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#8 Post by VanessaAngelina » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:36 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:22 am
VanessaAngelina wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:41 pm
...I'm particularly interested in photomicrography at this stage, photographing biological specimens and starting with brightfield and phase contrast, and eventually moving on to more advanced techniques.]). The supplier advised that the Phase Contrast PLAN objectives can be used for brightfield as well....
I want to make the right investment from the get-go, as this is something I will be using for a very long time!
Hello,
It appears that you are interested in a system microscope ("more advanced techniques"). From the very brief descriptions in the two links, I could not understand if either of these microscope sources offers future expansion:
1) Kohler illumination.
2) A reasonable selection of objectives.
3) Other condensers than Abbe - achromat, darkfield, DIC...
4) Light sources.

Also, neither microscope offers options for epi-illumination.

Also, since your aim is photography, the installation of a camera should be considered. Especially since both microscopes have 160mm optics. There are several potential solutions; I would suggest to look into past threads about Bresser microscopes on this forum; customer service might be needed.
Hi, Hobbyst46. Thank you so much for your response. These are really great points! I will call the seller tomorrow and ask about these options for expansion. Great tips!

In terms of the camera, I have a Canon camera that I use with my telescope. I'm hoping I can use it with my microscope too. I would imagine I just need an adaptor. I'll ask the seller tomorrow. Thanks again for chiming in. 😊
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#9 Post by VanessaAngelina » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:41 am

Roldorf wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:36 am
As far as I can see there are no Bresser dealers in Australia. :cry:

Also dark-field microscopy is not a difficult or expensive technique, just the addition of dark-field stops under the condenser. The stops can be made by hand with a felt tip pen and some clear plastic.
Better of course with the addition of 'microscope brand specific' dark-field condenser if available.
Hi, Roldorf. Thanks for chiming in. Yes, it seems my options are limited here in Australia. Quite annoying to be honest! 😔

That's great to know about the ease of making my own dark-field stops, though! I will ask the seller tomorrow about the condenser as well. Thanks again! 😊
✨ "Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious." ✨ -- Stephen Hawking

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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#10 Post by apochronaut » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:28 pm

@apochronaut -- Thanks for your input. Is the loss of quality you mentioned for BF also present in BF objectives or only when doing BF through phase contrast objectives? If I wanted to do BF, would I be better off using BF objectives (instead of doing BF through phase contrast objectives)?

Thanks again for all of your replies. 😊
[/quote]

Phase contrast objectives have a physical device implanted in them that is part of their specification. This specification is only met during their use in phase contrast. In BF use they do not work to specification.
Since standard BF objectives do not have that, they work up to specification in BF . They can also work to specification in DF as long as certain criteria are met. The main one is that the objective has an N.A. about .2 lower than the condenser.

DF is limited by the condenser , which is the active device that enables it. If the condenser is mediocre, the DF will be average or mediocre. DF is no more difficult than BF, it just requires the proper tools.

If I understand your situation , you are a reasonably experienced astrophotographer with a decent camera. Reading into your aims for photomicrography would lead me to believe that the two microscopes you are looking into will be interesting and challenging to begin with but will become frustrating fairly quickly.

Here's why. Microscope # 1 has 5 objectives, a 20mm f.o.v. and a trinocular tube. All good things for your situation. Beyond that, it is no different than any other microscope , even some much cheaper.
Limitations. Since you are interested in photography, the semi-plan objectives will in many cases force you to crop your images. If you get into stacking, they will cause difficulty. The microscope is limited to B.F. If you make D.F. masks , the quality will be limited by the condenser, which is a standard abbe 1.25; about the cheapest condenser any microscope above hobby grade can have. You probably cannot buy a better condenser for that instrument, you would have to d.i.y. one from another brand. An oil D.F. condenser can likely be purchased for about 150.00 or so. In order to do high resolution D.F., you will also need a 100X objective with an iris diaphragm built in.
The phase contrast system is an insert system. Although they work, they are a bit annoying to use. A rotary or carousel type is much preferable. There are only 3 magnifications for the phase system. You will miss having a 20X.
You don't know the capabilities of the photo eyepiece sticking out of the trinocular tube. The f.o.v. it sees, how well corrected it is? You will need some adapters to your camera and possibly better optics.

Microscope #2. It is phase contrast, which is good. It is fully plan, which is good. It is trinocular. Again , that's about it.
Limitations. It is an insert type and it is only a 3 objective microscope. You will miss the 20X. You will need BF objectives, likely. Certainly if you want to do higher mag. DF but with a 3 objective nosepiece , your objective choices are limited. Changing objectives manually in the middle of use went out in 1915. You may need a DF condenser and a 100X objective with iris diaphragm.
The f.o.v. is only 18mm. That is no longer the default. 20mm is expected these days. However, at 18mm it offers the same plan coverage as the microscope above.
Again, you don't know the capabilities of the photo optic supplied.

Both are led but do not state the wattage. probably 3, which limits DF applications. They are also both 160mm fixed tube microscopes. This may have advantages, since older 160mm D.I.N. optics of better colour correction could be used to improve the optical performance and they are typically cheaper than infinity corrected in general. Some infinity being the exception.

Given all that, your stated goals and your budget, I really think you are barking up the wrong tree buying into an average Chinese system, especially with your budget.

You could look a little higher into the stratosphere for a better Chinese scope. They have research models that are fully upgradeable and wouldn't exceed your budget too much. You can buy them direct from a broker in China, or even direct from the factory in many cases. Shipping to Australia won't be too bad.
A better option is to buy out of the U.S. on ebay where there are many used options off and on for far better microscopes that are upgradeable in the future. Price would be the same roughly, even with the shipping added in. Wait time would definitely be longer but I think it is worth the wait.
I am in Canada and am well familiar with the exchange difference to $US, the wait and the shipping cost. We get no breaks sharing a border and the shipping can be 3-4 weeks. If I bought a microscope out of Syracuse N.Y. , which is 75 miles away, the shipping would be 130-150.00 Canadian $ and it might take 3 or more weeks to get here.

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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#11 Post by 75RR » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:26 pm

.
Not sure if it is still available but if so it is certainly much more expandable than either of the two microscopes you linked to.

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/collaro ... 1263697807

Does not have phase as configured, but it is available among the very many options of this very extensive modular system.

http://www.science-info.net/docs/zeiss/ ... ystems.pdf
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#12 Post by Roldorf » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:25 pm

Microscopes com
Aunet Pty Ltd
20 Pomelaa Way
Clarkson
WA, 6030

Don't know what your budget is but there is this one ,Nikon Eclipse E-100 Trinocular Microscope, on their website, which has options for phase contrast.
I know Australia is a very large country, a three day train ride from east to west i think.
Is it possible you could visit them and maybe look at some of the scopes?
Some online suppliers have a try before you buy option. Bresser does in Germany, but only one day every month (that was before Corona). I also managed to get the opportunity to look at Kern & Sohn GmbH offers in their laboratory, even though they don't have a facility for private customers, just commercial. I was passing their offices at the time and called in on the off-chance.

Anyway I wish you luck in your search for your microscope. Stay healthy, have a nice Christmas and a better New Year. :D
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#13 Post by 75RR » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:40 pm

Roldorf wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:25 pm
Microscopes com
Aunet Pty Ltd
20 Pomelaa Way
Clarkson
WA, 6030

I know Australia is a very large country, a three day train ride from east to west i think.
You are about right on the distance, VanessaAngelina is in Brisbane and Clarkson is a suburb of Perth!
.
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#14 Post by VanessaAngelina » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:22 pm

75RR wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:26 pm
.
Not sure if it is still available but if so it is certainly much more expandable than either of the two microscopes you linked to.

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/collaro ... 1263697807

Does not have phase as configured, but it is available among the very many options of this very extensive modular system.

http://www.science-info.net/docs/zeiss/ ... ystems.pdf
Hi, 75RR! I love that you're familiar with Gumtree. Haha. It's such an 'Aussie' site. Thanks for linking that! I've just messaged the seller and inquired if it's still available. Thanks again!
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#15 Post by VanessaAngelina » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:25 pm

Roldorf wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:25 pm
Microscopes com
Aunet Pty Ltd
20 Pomelaa Way
Clarkson
WA, 6030

Don't know what your budget is but there is this one ,Nikon Eclipse E-100 Trinocular Microscope, on their website, which has options for phase contrast.
I know Australia is a very large country, a three day train ride from east to west i think.
Is it possible you could visit them and maybe look at some of the scopes?
Some online suppliers have a try before you buy option. Bresser does in Germany, but only one day every month (that was before Corona). I also managed to get the opportunity to look at Kern & Sohn GmbH offers in their laboratory, even though they don't have a facility for private customers, just commercial. I was passing their offices at the time and called in on the off-chance.

Anyway I wish you luck in your search for your microscope. Stay healthy, have a nice Christmas and a better New Year. :D
Thanks so much, Roldorf! Unfortunately, as 75RR mentions, Perth is a 7 hour flight from where I am. 😆 Maybe if I was rich I'd pay them a visit. Haha. But in any case, Western Australia has border restrictions for interstate travellers at the moment because of COVID.

Although, I did find these guys here in Brisbane: https://sios.net.au/all-microscopes. Their stock seems very specialised (I might be wrong, though). Maybe I should pay them a visit...

Thanks again for chiming into the conversation! I will definitely take your 'good luck'. I definitely need it! Haha. Have a wonderful Christmas too. 😊
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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#16 Post by mbendall » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:27 am

VanessaAngelina wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:41 pm
Hi everyone,

After doing lots of research to help me decide on my first microscope, I have finally narrowed down my options to two microscopes. I am not sure which one to get and was wondering if someone can give me some advice, please.

For background, I am only just starting out with microscopy. After doing astrophotography for a few years, I'm keen to take up a hobby that is not so weather-dependent. I'm particularly interested in photomicrography at this stage, photographing biological specimens and starting with brightfield and phase contrast, and eventually moving on to more advanced techniques.

The options I'm looking at are:

Option 1: The Optico N120MT-SP ADVANCED Trinocular Microscope (https://microscopes.com.au/collections/ ... microscope) with the Optico PLAN Phase Contrast Kit (https://microscopes.com.au/products/opt ... microscope).

Option 2: Optico XSZ-107T-PHB Phase Contrast Microscope (PLAN Objectives) (https://microscopes.com.au/collections/ ... microscope). The supplier advised that the Phase Contrast PLAN objectives can be used for brightfield as well.

I have about a 2k budget (Australian), so both options are feasible. I want to make the right investment from the get-go, as this is something I will be using for a very long time! So, I'm wondering:

1) Which microscope is better suited to grow with me as I explore different imaging techniques?
2) Is the price difference worth it?

Also, please note that I've had a hard time finding microscopes here in Australia. Most brands are Celestron or Saxon, with the higher-end brands like Zeiss, Nikon, etc. being out of my budget. I have not explored a used option because I wouldn't know what to look for to ensure I'm getting good equipment. I did explore some AM Scope options but shipping from the US alone is worth an extra US$250. Plus, I prefer to buy from a local supplier so as to take advantage of the warranty and be able to ship it back to them with relative ease if something happens.

Anyhoo, any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you! 🙂

Vanessa
Hi Vanessa,

I'm based in Melbourne and actually trying to come to a similar conclusion... Just wondering where you ended up on your journey, what you purchased (if anything) and how you're finding it?

Would love to get some intel from a fellow Australian (how bad are our choices!)

Cheers, Mark

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Re: Two Microscopes: Which one to buy?

#17 Post by Dubious » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:44 am

By the age of the thread, you have probably already made your selection--and either one would probably work well for getting you going. But, if not, do you have Amscope in Australia? It rebrands Chinese microscopes (the companies you mention probably do the same), but actually does generally offer good value for low/mid level microscopes. I've been favorably impressed by even cheap Amscope achromatic objectives. While I am not familiar with the Australian market at all, I would think that for the budget you mention, you could get a trinocular with Kohler illumination and phase contrast. It probably is best to get the phase contrast package (preferably turret), if you can afford it, as it usually costs more if you upgrade later.

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