PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

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Seta
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PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#1 Post by Seta » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:48 pm

Hi,

Although I have just started with microscopes I would love to have a DIC capable system, I always loved what you can get from it.

I came across a good deal on a PZO MIP5 (420$ door to door) and I am thinking of getting it and have been quoted 200$ for a KPI2 with polariser; if I am not wrong that is all you need for the system to work. That would give me the base for a DIC system for 600-650$

I would like is to use it on my BHT with nikon CFN and BD plan lenses; so, what else would I need?

First thing that comes to my mind is adapting the condenser to the BHT. So, how to adapt it?
Should I get a PZO condenser holder and modify it? maybe get a BHT condenser holder instead? I still would want to be able swap condensers
For the MIP5 I would need dovetail adapters, but I guess those can be ordered.

Any forum members with such hybrid system? I would rather not have to get PZO scope, with one scope I have enough

I do not need to finish it in a hurry, but I would like to have it fully functional sometime this year.. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Seta on Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#2 Post by zzffnn » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:53 pm

Hello Javier,

I have been thinking about a similar modification, except that I will be doing it on my Nikon Optiphot, more likely in November 2021.

Your approach should work, except that I am not sure Nikon BD plan objectives would work (they are no cover objectives, aren't they; granted, MIP5 head may provide enough back focal plane adjustment that it does not maater).

You need a powerful light source. DIC eats lots of light. Some BHTs comes with good lights.

You want the PZO 4-slot revolver condenser with individual 10, 20, 40, 100 prisms inside. The slit condenser is less versatile and image quality of out-of-focus area is not as even or pleasing. Probably no need to swap condenser, once revolver condenser works.

RafCamera can provide provide you the head dovetail adapter(s).

My approach for adapting the PZO condenser to Nikon condenser mount is using a Nikon condenser adapter (sold to me by a local Nikon dealer for $30 USD). Here you can see how I adapted a Leiz Heine condenser to my Nikon scope using that dovetail adapter. You would need to spend some time perfecting centration and leveling of the condenser.
4307_IMG_20180214_080610_1.jpg
4307_IMG_20180214_080610_1.jpg (71.33 KiB) Viewed 10730 times

JohnyM over at the other forum has MPI3 system adapted to a Olympus scope (I cannot remember if he has BH2 or BHT), but he has not replied my private message for a month or so and has not gone onto the forum for longer than that:

http://photomacrography.net/forum/membe ... 7735e3d469

Beautiful macro work, by the way. I remember you from the other forum.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#3 Post by PeteM » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:35 pm

This will be at least partly a research project. Given the excellent prices you've been quoted - probably worth the effort.

I've played around a bit with a PZO DIC condenser. There's a sort of sliding dovetail on the bottom of this - and I machined a circular dovetail that slides on and is held by friction. Dimensions are such that it will fit center in both BH2 and Labophot/Optiphot series condenser holders.

The PZO 10x, 20x, 40x, and 100x condenser located prisms seem about as broadly useful as any. And you can get some interesting DIC/oblique effects by rotating them slightly out of alignment.

One hassle, in trying to use the PZO condenser with other systems is that prism orientation if often 45 degrees out of alignment with the target system (Nikon, Olympus, etc.) OEM sliders. Recollection is that a bit of substage surgery is needed to get the condenser to rotate as needed and still clear sthe tage supports. However, that's only if you're using (as I tried) an Olympus or Nikon slider up top. You'll be trying the MIP5 and should be able to preserve the prism orientations.

I've also pulled out a 20x PZO prism out of the PZO condenser and installed it in an Olympus DIC/phase condenser and found it a reasonably good match. This is, again, using the Olympus OEM DIC slider up top.

No experience with the MIP5 prism system up top. One assumes it could be adapted. Here's where things get fussy, though, since objective-prism matches depend on finding the just-right spacing. There's typically something like a 1.25x compensating lens addition to add an intermediate piece to a finite system. If you don't manage to get the adapter spacing just right you'll have issues. A little off and you may lose parfocality but still get OK images.

Beyond that, there's no guarantee that the objectives you have will match up with image planes and shear angles with the PZO originals. I'd guess you'd find some that do, at least fairly well.
PZO condenser adapted to Nikon_Olympus.jpg
PZO condenser adapted to Nikon_Olympus.jpg (142.15 KiB) Viewed 10714 times

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#4 Post by Seta » Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:54 pm

zzffnn wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:53 pm
Hello Javier,

I have been thinking about a similar modification, except that I will be doing it on my Nikon Optiphot, more likely in November 2021.
....................
Although the BHT is supposed to be a biological microscope I can still use metallurgical objectives with it, why not. Crystallisation for example, you do not use a coverslip for those, do you? Or oxalate calcium cristal from an onion peel, I am enjoying them more with the BD plans than with the CFN

I have to say I have zero experience with biological microscopes, so I could say I am a completely beguiner; it will take some time. I am still strugglinmg with the basics, like focussing the condenser.. :D

I am going to get one of Saul´s hybrid LED/FLash 3D printed illuminators; the condenser I want is the KPI2, the revolver one
I know Raf does custom adapters to order, ask him about some stuff already.

Once I get the condenser I will see what can be done, maybe adding a olympus dovetail

I will go through JohnyM posts, see what I can find.

Glad you like my work; I was not very active the last few years but I am kind of obsesed right now..so maybe I can make up for it :evil:
PeteM wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:35 pm
This will be at least partly a research project. Given the excellent prices you've been quoted - probably worth the effort.
...................
Yes, I know..but I am used to that, in fact is as fun as taking photographs

If I could make an olympus dovetail for the KPI2 would be awesome, so those are good news

Having no experience with DIC at all if I can make it work reasonable well with a couple of lenses within a year I will be very happy, then with time and practice I will try to fine tune it. I understand that many people use CFN lenses with PZO DIC, so I will just have to find out which ones work well.

Until now I used microscope lenses on bellows, and treated them as bellows lenses, adding or removing extension as needed. They normally work well this way, better pushed up than down because of field of view/corner qualiity. However it is possible that high NA lenses are less tolerant to this practice, same as with coverslips thickness variance.

If I can not make DIC work well with the trinocular head because of this I can just use a short phototube instead of the trinocular head; at least until I find a solution. I wonder if Olympus 1.25x intermediates do any optical corrections; I guess they should be neutral as correction is performed by the eyepieces.

I am looking for some kind of neutral 1.25X projection lens, maybe one of this would be enough

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#5 Post by zzffnn » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:14 am

Nikon BD objectives have 210 mm tube length instead of 160mm, but up until 40x objective you may be fine.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#6 Post by Seta » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:51 am

One thing I do not know about this PZO system..
PZO optics are designed for 160mm tube length, right? so the MIP5 has to compensate somehow for the extra extension for their optics to work well too
If keeping the 160mm TL with the BH2 is going to be a problem I will just use the camera on top of the MIP5 without the trinocular head, with the BD plans maybe not a problem. If however the system makes up for this extra extra extension then the BD plans will just need 50mm extension over the CFNs, not a problem either.

Best lenses for DIC would be CFN APO, would the CF Fluors work well too? I spent to much money already, the transition to a full APO system will be slow

The MIP5 is on its way, they have to find the KPI2 for me..said it would take a while
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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#7 Post by zzffnn » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:01 pm

MIP5 has optics inside to make up for the tube length it adds by itself. When you used MIP5 head by itself for another complete 160mm tube length scope (without mismatching, for example, PZO base frame with Olympus head), then you are fine.

Yes, for 210mmm objectives you can indeed add 50mm using whatever works. Nikon system offers a 50mm cube so epic illumination, so I just used that when I had to.

I heard MIP5 is very versatile and can work with most biological 160mm tube 45mm parfocal objectives. So Nikon CFN fluorites or achromats should work. BD objectives or other objectives may still work, but are just not well-known to.

I plan to try MIP5 with short 33mm parfocal LOMO (non-plan) apo objectives, the combination is not well known to work but it is the most likely one to work for LOMO objectives.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#8 Post by Seta » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:25 pm

Good news, thanks.

I got good deal on a CF fluor 10, a fluor 20 and cf 40/1.0 Oil; will upgrade to CFN APOs with time, lots of things I have to learn and practice first.

I would only use the BD plans for subjects needing no coverslips, maybe crystals and such; the BD plan 40 0.80 APO could be one worth trying. At the moment I am using 50mm extension only in the photo tube but would place it after the MIP5 with the right adapters, maybe Raf camera can help with that

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#9 Post by apochronaut » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:48 pm

There is a good possibility that you will have to do a thorough clean of the MPI2 and the interference head.....there were several versions of the interference head, depending on whether there was one or two wollaston prisms but they are all vulnerable to mould.
It is also not uncommon for the polarizing filter to be de-laminated in the interference head.

The head has a reasonable amount of motion in the Z axis. Everything about them is very well built. If you have to take the interference head apart to clean it, you can go in easily and do the job with minimal grief. It is not a total breakdown. There is one replacement of a detent ball that is tricky but using a small curved wood carving tool as a retainer, works like a charm. If you end up getting that far, contact me.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#10 Post by Seta » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:28 am

The head is MIP5; in the pictures it looks like in very good condition. Now I need the KPI2 condenser, it may take some time.

The adaptations will take time too..but once I get both the MIP5 and KIP2 I will contact you for advice, thanks!!

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#11 Post by zzffnn » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:34 am

Compatibility/ versatility wise, MIP5 head unit > MIP3 head > MIP2 unit.

https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index. ... ic=34574.0

MIP2 head has two protruding knobs and may not be easy to modify for non-PZO scopes.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#12 Post by apochronaut » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:01 am

There doesn't seem to be an MPI-5 marked on what is commonly referred to as an MPI-5. Mine just has a serial #. The latest manual doesn't refer to an MPI-5 either. It is called a UPI Zs 1 . It is possible that the MPI-5 and UPI Zs 1 are different in some way but from the outside they look the same.
To complicate matters further, the slit condenser is an MPI- 3 as well.

The model # complications may arise based on era of mfg. and model types of the microscopes. PZO made P.I. systems back into the 60's until around 1992 on at least 3 models of microscopes, the MB30, the Studar and the Biolar. The MB30 was an older design . The Studar and Biolar were contemporary, with the Studar being a lab instrument and the Biolar being a research oriented instrument. It went MPI-2 on the MB30, MPI-3 on the Studar and MPI-5/UPI Zs 1 on the Biolar.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#13 Post by Seta » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:29 pm

I have just received the MIP-5, this thing is heavy..

- It looks in very good condition except one glass (is it the polarizer?) whose corners have some lamination, the one on the wheel you can turn (First set of pictures). Some dust inside too but nothing bad

- The really good news..Olympus and PZO dovetails are almost identical in size (second picture) so hopefully no adaptation needed, olympus goes in a bit deeper and PZO is a tiny bit wider
The trinocular head fits on top perfectly and the MIP-5 fits on the BHT frame, there is a small screw/pin that prevents it from going all the way in but it should fit. That pin should be removed (Third picture)..is it safe to do so? I would say the pin is there just to allow locking the MPI-5 on a PZO scope.

Maybe centring will not be perfect, but I would rather buy a BH-2 arm and modify the clamp than having to touch this thing.

- When in 1 position there are a few (metal?)pieces crossing/blocking light, its this the way they should look (Fourth picture)?
Edit: that is after position 1, there is still quite a lot of travel

I may add a 1.25x magnifier intermefiate piece, should it go before or after the MIP-5?


Delaminated Polarizer?

ImageImageImage

PZO vs BH-2 Dovetails

Image

The small screw pin that should be removed

Image

Position 1 insides

Image

MIP-5 head
Image

Update:

I have removed the pin, MIP-5 fits the BH-2 and does look beautiful, unfortunately (I think )it will not work.

MIP-5 to BHT body fits but is decentred, by more than a mm. Trinocular seems to fit ok, or better at least. Image quality even at 0 position is not good, you get this kind of ghosting effect of shadows moving sideways as you focus up and down, like with oblique lighting sort off

Possible solutions:

- A PZO to BH-2 dovetail adapter, rising the system 7-10mm losing parfocality and Tube length.
Maybe with this adapter and a PZO to M42 male adapter and just use the camera when doing DIC.

- If MIP-5 distance to the objectives has to be kept could be take the bottom part of the PZO apart and have it machined taking the BH-2 dovetail as reference; maybe this solution is a bit drastic.

- Maybe a not so drastic solution could be removing PZO dovetail I if possible and adapt the dovetail from a BH-2 binocular head I happen to have one. The top dovetail clamp has 3 screws, easy to remove. I could fit a dovetail clamp from a U-TLU I have (disassembled already); that top part would be really easy to adapt

Any ideas wellcome...

ImageImage

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#14 Post by zzffnn » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:48 pm

Do not modify the MIP5 unit any further, for now.

Quite a few things sound unusual there (the metal piece inside, the decentering and the ghosting). Is your seller reputable?

I would suggest you also post at the other forum to ask:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 8050f2ab3a

JohnyM has done almost the same PZO Olympus modification, but he has not been on the forum nor replied my email.

If no one replies, PM member Ichthyophthirius and ask for his help (he has PZO DIC related experience and is one of the few knowledgeable microscopists still active there):

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/m ... ile&u=3229

If there is still no help, please PM me and I will dig up some more contacts for you.

How did you remove that pin? Was your removal irreversible (did you saw it off)?

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#15 Post by Seta » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:00 pm

zzffnn wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:48 pm
Do not modify the MIP5 unit any further, for now.
.........................................
- The decentring is caused because even the MIP5 fits inside the BHT body dovetail is not the same and the MIP5 is pushed to the side by 1 to 2mm so is decentred; the pin is just screwed there, I just had to apply a little oil wait and remove and now is back in place. As the MPI-5 is moved to the side maybe is causing some kind of oblique lighting or something.

Also the tube length in my set up is off, maybe the MIP5 is also affected by this..

- The blades shown in the picture are seen when you move the lever past position 1 (like if there was a position 4, with no click stop) , when set to 0, 1, 2 and three it looks ok

- I trust the seller, from France 830* on ebay and 100% positive votes. He has tested it on his scope, had two sold one. He has been helpful and shared documentation but he uses them on PZO scopes, this is something different. I have the manual, will go through it.

-This is going to slow down the project a bit, but was counting on it. I will contact Ichthyophthirius and Apochronaut also offered to help if I need to disassemble it or something. Until I receive the KIP-2 and find a way to mount it on the BHT I can not do much more.
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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#16 Post by zzffnn » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:10 pm

Are you sure your tube length is off (why would it be off, since MIP5 compensates its added own tube length)?

I would think it is right on at 160mm, as long as your original (without PZO) tube length is correct.

1.25x magnifier intermefiate piece should go after the MIP-5, I would guess, although I am not familiar with your exact setup.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#17 Post by Seta » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:37 am

- I am using the microscope with nikon lenses via direct projection, with the adapters I have now I am off by 7mm or so; waiting for the right adapters to make the tube shorter

- I would say the MIP5 works well, watching the TV through it you can see the effect different prisms and polarizer produce.

-The trinocular head will work just fine, it has some play that can produce a little decentering but just a little tape would make a tight fit. No need for any adptations.

- I have a binocular head that came with the BH2, I have removed the dovetail from it to see if it could be used to adapt the mip5 tho the BHT body. It would work but would rise the MIP5 about 10mm (and add 10mm extension). I also want to remove the eyepiece holder that can be extended and put it in the trinocular head, that way both eyepieces will extend if I want to.. I do not mind butchering the binocular, they sell for 20€ or so.

Maybe the final TL would be off by 5mm or so, still OK for a 40/0.70 and Oil 1.25, and I am pretty sure a 40/0.95 would work well too. Image starting to deteriorate dose not mean it will be awful, I can always adjust the iris to try fix it a bit.

I can always use the camera right after the MIP5 (no trinocular) and and keep the 160mm TL

- No idea about the magnifier, common sense tells me it would go after the MIP5

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#18 Post by Seta » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:54 am

Found a KPI2 like new, 210€; a bit under 600€ with the MIP5
Seller may have some more if someone interested, ships from Poland

Saul made me an adapter for the MIP5 to the BHT microscope, I will use just tubes on top of it with the camera to be completely parfocal

Looking forward to put it to work... :D

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#19 Post by apochronaut » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:51 am

Uhhhhh! I am thinking. Why not just buy a Biolar microscope body? You can probably even get the nice 100 watt version with a 5 nosepiece.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#20 Post by Seta » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:07 am

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:51 am
Uhhhhh! I am thinking. Why not just buy a Biolar microscope body? You can probably even get the nice 100 watt version with a 5 nosepiece.
I almost buy one from Rusia but seller was new and did not trust the postal service. Problem with PZO is finding a trinocular head, they are rare. But I asked the seller to tell me if he finds one Biolar and and trinocular head. That way I would have a scope set for DIC and other for BF, DF and POL

Besides I spent quite a lot of money in the last couple of months, but a Biolar is for sure on my wish list.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#21 Post by zzffnn » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:31 pm

Seta wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:54 am
Found a KPI2 like new, 210€; a bit under 600€ with the MIP5
Seller may have some more if someone interested, ships from Poland

Saul made me an adapter for the MIP5 to the BHT microscope, I will use just tubes on top of it with the camera to be completely parfocal

Looking forward to put it to work... :D
Javier,

Please let me know that seller 's email and contact information.

600 euro for both KPI2 and MIP5 is a good price. Have you tested your KPI2 from that seller and does it work well?

I am in the same boat as you (in terms of DIY fitting PZO DIC to a 3rd party scope). I have to have trinocular head; and I have equipped/adapted my Nikon Optiphot too much to switch to another scope.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#22 Post by Seta » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:07 pm

zzffnn wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:31 pm
Please let me know that seller 's email and contact information.
I sent you a PM, the MIP5 I bough from someone in france, KIP2 bought today from poland.

I just asked around to ebay sellers based in poland/rusia.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#23 Post by synnus » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm

I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#24 Post by synnus » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:52 pm


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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#25 Post by zzffnn » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:25 am

synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Very nice. Did you use a condenser dovetail adapter for using KPI2 on BH2?

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#26 Post by PeteM » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:42 am

synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Curious how much of a 3D effect you're getting at various magnifications? The images in the first video show a wide range of "color staining" - which is a feature that DIC prisms can provide when slide to extremes (much like wave plates) but not so much (that I can see) of a 3D relief. The images in the second video show a bit of 3D, but not quite the stark relief I'm used to. A guess is that the prisms aren't quite a match, but still close enough to be quite satisfying.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#27 Post by synnus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:53 am

zzffnn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:25 am
synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Very nice. Did you use a condenser dovetail adapter for using KPI2 on BH2?
No. I have already designed a dovetail adapter.But In this video I just put kpi2 on the holder.
Another problem is kpi2 can't reach the speciman.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#28 Post by synnus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:37 am

PeteM wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:42 am
synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Curious how much of a 3D effect you're getting at various magnifications? The images in the first video show a wide range of "color staining" - which is a feature that DIC prisms can provide when slide to extremes (much like wave plates) but not so much (that I can see) of a 3D relief. The images in the second video show a bit of 3D, but not quite the stark relief I'm used to. A guess is that the prisms aren't quite a match, but still close enough to be quite satisfying.
I have both bh2 dic and pzo dic. I make a compare just now. I think they are the same looking by eye.They also have a sense of three-dimensional, light blue. But you can see the difference when you use the camera to record. Pzo DIC seems a little fuzzy.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#29 Post by synnus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:16 am

PeteM wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:42 am
synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Curious how much of a 3D effect you're getting at various magnifications? The images in the first video show a wide range of "color staining" - which is a feature that DIC prisms can provide when slide to extremes (much like wave plates) but not so much (that I can see) of a 3D relief. The images in the second video show a bit of 3D, but not quite the stark relief I'm used to. A guess is that the prisms aren't quite a match, but still close enough to be quite satisfying.
https://youtu.be/ahvJDf0yPyA

PeteM
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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#30 Post by PeteM » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:20 am

Synnus - thank you for taking the time to do that comparison.

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