PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

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Seta
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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#31 Post by Seta » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:58 am

synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Thanks for the videos.

Did you modify the Mip5 dovetail? It fits inside but it is not properly aligned; mip5 dovetail is slighly wider and shape is different. I would say is is missaligned by something in between 1 and 2 mm

This is the reason I asked Saul to make me a dovetail adapter. In PZO microscopes distance from objectives to mip5 is 47mm. On bh2 40 or so..so there is room for an adapter.

I will have to use tubes instead of the trinocular head head to stay parfocal. I will ise it with nikon objectives but it seems it works well with olympus ones too.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#32 Post by synnus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:45 am

Seta wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:58 am
synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Thanks for the videos.

Did you modify the Mip5 dovetail? It fits inside but it is not properly aligned; mip5 dovetail is slighly wider and shape is different. I would say is is missaligned by something in between 1 and 2 mm

This is the reason I asked Saul to make me a dovetail adapter. In PZO microscopes distance from objectives to mip5 is 47mm. On bh2 40 or so..so there is room for an adapter.

I will have to use tubes instead of the trinocular head head to stay parfocal. I will ise it with nikon objectives but it seems it works well with olympus ones too.
No I didn't.
I didn't modify the dovetail of mpi5. In my opinion, as long as there is no tilt, a small amount of axis shifting will not affect the image quality. After all, the F.N. of splanapo is 26.5. The principle should be similar to that of tilt-shift lens.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#33 Post by Seta » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:53 am

synnus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:45 am
No I didn't.
I didn't modify the dovetail of mpi5. In my opinion, as long as there is no tilt, a small amount of axis shifting will not affect the image quality. After all, the F.N. of splanapo is 26.5. The principle should be similar to that of tilt-shift lens.
As you can see the shape of those dovetails is different, in width and shape. I would say 2mm decentering is closer to reality. I can tell because I can not screw the locking screw on the BHT frame. MIP5 dovetail lens is 13mm wide, 2mm is quite a lot. I bet some fuzziness could come from this misalignment.

One other possible reason for fuziness could be the polarizer on the MIP5. On my tests the quality is better if the analyzer is close to the camera instead of under the trinocular head, do not ask me why (example and set up). So I may try using it that way

Once I have all parts I will try it both as you use it and with a proper dovetail adapter, and see if there is any difference. I hope I can have it up and running in a month or so.

PZO vs BH-2 Dovetails
Image


I placed the MIP5 on the BHT, removed the nosepiece and took a picture. Decentering is quite obvious in two axis
It amazes me it works so well in your videos
Image

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#34 Post by synnus » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 pm

Seta wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:58 am
synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Thanks for the videos.

Did you modify the Mip5 dovetail? It fits inside but it is not properly aligned; mip5 dovetail is slighly wider and shape is different. I would say is is missaligned by something in between 1 and 2 mm

This is the reason I asked Saul to make me a dovetail adapter. In PZO microscopes distance from objectives to mip5 is 47mm. On bh2 40 or so..so there is room for an adapter.

I will have to use tubes instead of the trinocular head head to stay parfocal. I will ise it with nikon objectives but it seems it works well with olympus ones too.
No I don’t think there is a room for an adapter.
You need leave a space for nomarski prism moving in z axis.
In my test, I need moving the prism to very bottom to get the even pictures.
If you insert a adapter between mpi5 and microscope, you can not move the prism to right place.
If you insist , you can replace the dovetail.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#35 Post by Seta » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:25 pm

synnus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 pm
No I don’t think there is a room for an adapter.
You need leave a space for nomarski prism moving in z axis.
In my test, I need moving the prism to very bottom to get the even pictures.
If you insert a adapter between mpi5 and microscope, you can not move the prism to right place.
If you insist , you can replace the dovetail.
An adapter will not prevent the prism from moving, it is inside the MIP5.
It will increase the distance from the objective to the MIP5 by 8mm though but that is closer to how the MIP5 works on PZO scopes (47mm from objective to MIP5 on PZO scopes vs 40mm on BHT)

I will test everything but if results are not satisfactory I will get a PZO Biolar, two scopes better than one.. :D

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#36 Post by zzffnn » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:54 am

It depends on what (tube length) you have after the MIP5.

If it is an unmodified Olympus trinocular head, then tube length should be perfect.

Or you can use extension tubes of the right length for camera only and sacrifice visual viewing from visual eyepieces.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#37 Post by synnus » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:58 am

Seta wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:25 pm
synnus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:06 pm
No I don’t think there is a room for an adapter.
You need leave a space for nomarski prism moving in z axis.
In my test, I need moving the prism to very bottom to get the even pictures.
If you insert a adapter between mpi5 and microscope, you can not move the prism to right place.
If you insist , you can replace the dovetail.
An adapter will not prevent the prism from moving, it is inside the MIP5.
It will increase the distance from the objective to the MIP5 by 8mm though but that is closer to how the MIP5 works on PZO scopes (47mm from objective to MIP5 on PZO scopes vs 40mm on BHT)

I will test everything but if results are not satisfactory I will get a PZO Biolar, two scopes better than one.. :D
I mean it depends on what objective you use.If I adjust the prism to bottom I will get the prefect picture.So there is no space for me to adjust another 8mm,once I insert adapter.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#38 Post by zzffnn » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:39 am

Can MIP5's dovetail be shimmed up or down to fit Olympus arm? Maybe add a few small pieces of wood / aluminum foil or something?

2mm doesn't sound a lot, if MIP5 is smaller (sorry, I haven't followed up carefully to know if MIP5 is bigger or smaller for Olympus). I am guessing one can sand off 1mm from all sides evenly, if MIP5 is bigger than Olympus dovetail.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#39 Post by Seta » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:11 am

I rather use an adapter than modify mip5 dovetail, pzo dovetail is bigger. BH2 Trinocular head fits nicely inside PZO scope, just adding some tape around bh2 dovetail will make it 100% aligned.

I may buy a pzo biolar (200$~)and leave the mip5 there, just switch the trinocular head from the BHT to the PZO as needed. I even have a BH2 binocular head I could leave there for observation.

PZO trinocular heads are rare and expenssive, if the BH2 TR30 works well I could end up buying a second one for the biolar

EDIT: I have tried the MIP5 on the BH2 without the condenser (just to check FOV coverage), image seems to be clearer if instead of using the MIP5 polarizer I use the polarizer just bellow the camera as the links I provided before. There is some vignetting with direct projection but works OK with a 2Xish projection eyepiece (I use a Nikon SC eyepiece for this, works prety well)

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#40 Post by zzffnn » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:50 am

So PZO head dovetail is around 44mm, since Olympus head dovetail is 42mm?

That is not good news for a Nikon owner like me, who has 48.5mm head dovetails.

If one adapter adds 8mm tube length and I need two, that means 16mm tube length increase!

I think I wouldn't use adapter for my scope then, I can do some agressive DIY:

Add or remove 48.5 - 44 = 4.5mm (2.25 mm from one side). I guess I can butcher a Nikon head (by reducing its dovetail by 2.25mm all around) and shim the PZO MIP5 head (by adding 2.25mm all around) with plastic or wood pieces :shock:

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#41 Post by Seta » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:40 am

zzffnn wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:50 am
So PZO head dovetail is around 44mm, since Olympus head dovetail is 42mm?
That is not good news for a Nikon owner like me, who has 48.5mm head dovetails.

Maybe it is easy for you, height could remind the same.
The MIP5 to microscope adapter would just need to be a sleeve going around the 43mm MIP5 dovetail.
The MIP5 top dovetail clamp is easy to remove. Maybe you could add a custom nikon dovetail clamp instead, adding not height to the system at all
Last edited by Seta on Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#42 Post by zzffnn » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:50 am

Great idea, thank you for your kind advice, Javier.

Yes, I meant 43mm for PZO. Forgive me brain fart.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#43 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:50 pm

In adapting a Nikon labiphit head to a BH2 Olympus body the Nikon head actually needed to sit higher than the bottom of the olympus dovetail to keep the focus position in the eyepieces about the same, so the extra space of a mechanical adapter was actually helpful.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#44 Post by Seta » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Today was a good day, I received both the KIP2 which looks new and also a few Nikon PlanApos... :D

These are preliminary tests (I smashed the poor thing); condenser just placed on top fo the BHT condenser holder, MIP5 far from centred and system not parfocal.
I tested the CFN 10, 20 and 40 planApos and the CFN 40 plan Achromat

Camera is a Sony NEX-5N and I am using a NIkon SC eyepiece as projection eyepiece; some imperfections seen, could be from sensor which is quite beaten up but I never got those before (they are from the analyzer, was too close to the sensor)

The 10x seems to perform worse but may be due to bad system alignment; once I get dovetail adapters for MIP5 and KIP2 I will fine tune it

Nikon CFN PZO DIC on Olympus BHT

I do not know what I am doing but this looks quite promising and fun.
Last edited by Seta on Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#45 Post by microb » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm

Can someone tell me what's inside these things? I'm assuming the condenser is a rotatable polarizer. I don't know what the slit condenser has, maybe that's phase contrast?

And the MIP5, is that a set of 5 DIC prisms with a turret?

This set is for sale on e-bay. I'm just curious for now.
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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#46 Post by Seta » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:50 pm

microb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm
Can someone tell me what's inside these things? I'm assuming the condenser is a rotatable polarizer. I don't know what the slit condenser has, maybe that's phase contrast?

And the MIP5, is that a set of 5 DIC prisms with a turret?

This set is for sale on e-bay. I'm just curious for now.
That is a good set, what is the asking price? I paid 600€ for the MIP5 (top part) and KIP2 (condenser with prisms for 10, 20, 40 and 100 objectives), you need those 2 for DIC. The slit condenser gives you a pseudo DIC effect sort off.
The polarizer on these is usually delaminated but you can easily get other polarizers anyway

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#47 Post by zzffnn » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:47 pm

Seta wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:07 pm
Today was a good day, I received both the KIP2 which looks new and also a few Nikon PlanApos... :D

These are preliminary tests (I smashed the poor thing); condenser just placed on top fo the BHT condenser holder, MIP5 far from centred and system not parfocal.
I tested the CFN 10, 20 and 40 planApos and the CFN 40 plan Achromat

Camera is a Sony NEX-5N and I am using a NIkon SC eyepiece as projection eyepiece; some imperfection see, could be from sensor which is quite beaten up but I never got those before

The 10x seems to perform worse but may be due to bad system alignment; once I get dovetail adapters for MIP5 and KIP2 I will fine tune it

Nikon CFN PZO DIC on Olympus BHT

I do not know what I am doing but this looks quite promising and fun.
20x apo looks very good. 40 apo looks pretty nice as well. 10x not so much indeed.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#48 Post by microb » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:07 am

Seta wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:50 pm
microb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm
Can someone tell me what's inside these things? I'm assuming the condenser is a rotatable polarizer. I don't know what the slit condenser has, maybe that's phase contrast?

And the MIP5, is that a set of 5 DIC prisms with a turret?

This set is for sale on e-bay. I'm just curious for now.
That is a good set, what is the asking price? I paid 600€ for the MIP5 (top part) and KIP2 (condenser with prisms for 10, 20, 40 and 100 objectives), you need those 2 for DIC. The slit condenser gives you a pseudo DIC effect sort off.
The polarizer on these is usually delaminated but you can easily get other polarizers anyway
So is the left knob on the MIP5 a 360 pol rotator or a DIC up and down adjuster? Is there a adjustment disk on the front for something.

This is from an item on ebay for almost $900 I think. I just wanted to know about the feature set.

I guess the PZO setup is 160mm.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#49 Post by microb » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:08 am

microb wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:07 am
Seta wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:50 pm
microb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm
Can someone tell me what's inside these things? I'm assuming the condenser is a rotatable polarizer. I don't know what the slit condenser has, maybe that's phase contrast?

And the MIP5, is that a set of 5 DIC prisms with a turret?

This set is for sale on e-bay. I'm just curious for now.
That is a good set, what is the asking price? I paid 600€ for the MIP5 (top part) and KIP2 (condenser with prisms for 10, 20, 40 and 100 objectives), you need those 2 for DIC. The slit condenser gives you a pseudo DIC effect sort off.
The polarizer on these is usually delaminated but you can easily get other polarizers anyway
So is the left knob on the MIP5 a 360 pol rotator or a DIC up and down adjuster? Is there a adjustment disk on the front for something.

This is from an item on ebay for $800 USD. I just wanted to know about the feature set.

I guess the PZO setup is 160mm.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#50 Post by synnus » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:33 am

microb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm
Can someone tell me what's inside these things? I'm assuming the condenser is a rotatable polarizer. I don't know what the slit condenser has, maybe that's phase contrast?

And the MIP5, is that a set of 5 DIC prisms with a turret?

This set is for sale on e-bay. I'm just curious for now.
This is mine.And it is sold to a forum member now.
kpi2 condener contains 4 nomarski prisms and a hole.polarizer is an individual part which can attach to kpi2 or slit condenser.
Inside mpi5 there are three prisms one for dic.Analyser is inside mpi5 you can see a protruding semicircle on the picture.
prism can move in z axis and x axis.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#51 Post by synnus » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:11 am

microb wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:07 am
Seta wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:50 pm
microb wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm
Can someone tell me what's inside these things? I'm assuming the condenser is a rotatable polarizer. I don't know what the slit condenser has, maybe that's phase contrast?

And the MIP5, is that a set of 5 DIC prisms with a turret?

This set is for sale on e-bay. I'm just curious for now.
That is a good set, what is the asking price? I paid 600€ for the MIP5 (top part) and KIP2 (condenser with prisms for 10, 20, 40 and 100 objectives), you need those 2 for DIC. The slit condenser gives you a pseudo DIC effect sort off.
The polarizer on these is usually delaminated but you can easily get other polarizers anyway
So is the left knob on the MIP5 a 360 pol rotator or a DIC up and down adjuster? Is there a adjustment disk on the front for something.

This is from an item on ebay for almost $900 I think. I just wanted to know about the feature set.

I guess the PZO setup is 160mm.
The left knob can adjust x axis of prism.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#52 Post by PeteM » Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:39 pm

I have a question - which probably best belongs as a continuation of this thread. Can anyone verify that the distance from the objective shoulder to the head flange top is 47mm on a PZO Biolar?

For reference, both Olympus and Zeiss have about 40mm distance from the objective seat to the top of the stand where the head mounts. I'm told (from another site) that this distance is 47mm for the PZO Biolar and that their head optics are designed with this distance in mind.

FWIW, I've retrofitting a PZO DIC system to an Olympus BHT - maybe eventually to a Zeiss WL if I get that together. For the BHT, I made an adapter to fit the PZO dovetail to the Olympus BHT and then another adapter to fit an Olympus BH head to the PZO MPI5. Then chopped a bit of length from the Olympus head tubes to get everything back to about 160mm tube length (less the MPI-5 DIC unit, which compensates for its own length).

The 40x images (400x) were soft when the tube was a too long - quite nice with it chopped back a bit.

The reason for asking in this thread? I suspect others adapting PZO DIC to another stand (BHT, Zeiss, etc.) will have some effects from a-bit-too-short a tube length given the number of PZO adaptations I see (Ebay etc.) mounted directly to something like a Zeiss stand with no corrections for the expected tube length before and after the DIC unit. While low magnifications don't much care about plus or minus 7-10 mm of tube length, the higher magnifications do and the effect was quite visible in my case.

This turns out to be a surprisingly good DIC unit. It takes a bit of fiddling to get everything in adjustment. And the field of view isn't up to modern standards. But, it also doesn't cost an arm and a leg. The images are good and it looks like this could become a great unit for something like video recording protists.

One plus of using something other than a Biolar (other than having the other scopes) is that the illumination systems are better. The PZO DIC system wants a lot of light.
.
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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#53 Post by apochronaut » Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:24 pm

The PZO Biolar DIC and DF microscopes used a 100 watt illuminator. Read post # 31.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#54 Post by PeteM » Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:50 pm

That's good to know, Phil. Elsewhere, a user was complaining about dim light with their PZO. Must have been a different model or differently configured.

I see that Seta also has the 47mm dimension, though not having one himself he may be relying upon the same 'net post as I was? I'm hoping someone can verify this before I make an adapter for the WL.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#55 Post by apochronaut » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:20 pm

The Biolar had a choice of either a 6v.15 watt incandescent or 12v. 100 watt halogen in the back, not dissimilar to other microscope models with variable illuminator choices.
I just measured a Biolar from the objective shoulder to the top of the female dovetail flange, in otherwords to the bottom of the male flange of the head and it is indeed 47mm maybe +- a bit because I did it with a little depth gauge.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#56 Post by PeteM » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:41 pm

Very much appreciate that, Phil. Thanks.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#57 Post by dolmadis » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:17 pm

synnus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:53 am
zzffnn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:25 am
synnus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:42 pm
I think pzo dic can fit bh2
https://youtu.be/TQbKw3CeZ58
Very nice. Did you use a condenser dovetail adapter for using KPI2 on BH2?
No. I have already designed a dovetail adapter.But In this video I just put kpi2 on the holder.
Another problem is kpi2 can't reach the speciman.
Hi synnus

Thanks for the videos.

I see that you have designed a dovetail adapter for PZO KPI2 on BH2.

Can you share this please?

Much appreciated.

Thanks

John

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#58 Post by synnus » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:53 pm

dolmadis wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:17 pm
synnus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:53 am
zzffnn wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:25 am


Very nice. Did you use a condenser dovetail adapter for using KPI2 on BH2?
No. I have already designed a dovetail adapter.But In this video I just put kpi2 on the holder.
Another problem is kpi2 can't reach the speciman.
Hi synnus

Thanks for the videos.

I see that you have designed a dovetail adapter for PZO KPI2 on BH2.

Can you share this please?

Much appreciated.

Thanks

John

Hi john.
Sorry I didn't design a dovetail.
I just put it on the BH2's holder.
Sorry for that.

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#59 Post by dolmadis » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:00 pm

synnus wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:53 pm
dolmadis wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:17 pm
synnus wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:53 am


No. I have already designed a dovetail adapter.But In this video I just put kpi2 on the holder.
Another problem is kpi2 can't reach the speciman.
Hi synnus

Thanks for the videos.

I see that you have designed a dovetail adapter for PZO KPI2 on BH2.

Can you share this please?

Much appreciated.

Thanks

John

Hi john.
Sorry I didn't design a dovetail.
I just put it on the BH2's holder.
Sorry for that.
No problem. It looks like I misunderstood. But I think that I will try that too on a BH2 using the PZO split diaphragm condenser and some old Olympus nomarski objective prisms for a version of PlasDIC. So a useful post of yours. Best, John

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Re: PZO DIC on a BHT microscope, possible?

#60 Post by fero » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:24 pm

PeteM wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:35 pm
This will be at least partly a research project. Given the excellent prices you've been quoted - probably worth the effort.

I've played around a bit with a PZO DIC condenser. There's a sort of sliding dovetail on the bottom of this - and I machined a circular dovetail that slides on and is held by friction. Dimensions are such that it will fit center in both BH2 and Labophot/Optiphot series condenser holders.

The PZO 10x, 20x, 40x, and 100x condenser located prisms seem about as broadly useful as any. And you can get some interesting DIC/oblique effects by rotating them slightly out of alignment.

One hassle, in trying to use the PZO condenser with other systems is that prism orientation if often 45 degrees out of alignment with the target system (Nikon, Olympus, etc.) OEM sliders. Recollection is that a bit of substage surgery is needed to get the condenser to rotate as needed and still clear sthe tage supports. However, that's only if you're using (as I tried) an Olympus or Nikon slider up top. You'll be trying the MIP5 and should be able to preserve the prism orientations.

I've also pulled out a 20x PZO prism out of the PZO condenser and installed it in an Olympus DIC/phase condenser and found it a reasonably good match. This is, again, using the Olympus OEM DIC slider up top.

No experience with the MIP5 prism system up top. One assumes it could be adapted. Here's where things get fussy, though, since objective-prism matches depend on finding the just-right spacing. There's typically something like a 1.25x compensating lens addition to add an intermediate piece to a finite system. If you don't manage to get the adapter spacing just right you'll have issues. A little off and you may lose parfocality but still get OK images.

Beyond that, there's no guarantee that the objectives you have will match up with image planes and shear angles with the PZO originals. I'd guess you'd find some that do, at least fairly well.
PZO condenser adapted to Nikon_Olympus.jpg
On my KPI2 there is a polarizer at the bottom where you have dovetail adapter, I guess it is needed for the DIC to work. Or did you put PL on top of the light lens?

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