Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

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apochronaut
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#31 Post by apochronaut » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:27 pm

You were talking about the high cost of real Nomarski prisms. Voilà ! They mostly don't show up on ebay.ca either but I have bought from all the sellers who purvey PZO stuff regularly and the going rate for an objective to here is about 12.00. The last one came with a Soviet era titanium army shovel for 20.00.

LouiseScot
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#32 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:55 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:27 pm
You were talking about the high cost of real Nomarski prisms. Voilà ! They mostly don't show up on ebay.ca either but I have bought from all the sellers who purvey PZO stuff regularly and the going rate for an objective to here is about 12.00. The last one came with a Soviet era titanium army shovel for 20.00.
Are they radioactive? Ha ha. They might be worth tinkering with if the seller ships to the uk. The current system I have is infinity based. I'm not at all familiar with PZO - presumably the integrated objective prism is actually a Wollaston? What would be the requirements for the condenser prism? Is it like Nikon that have an N2 condenser prism that works with all the greater than 10x objectives/prisms?

Thanks

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

apochronaut
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#33 Post by apochronaut » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:43 pm

The PZO system was designed by Maksymilian Pluta ( Max Pluta). Since his background includes studying directly under Nomarski in Paris one would assume he used Nomarski prisms but the literature I have doesn't say definitively. It is possible that Pluta made his own design. Very good, very versatile and underrated system. PZO were marketing D.I.C. microscopes when the Japanese still thought the letters stood for Davao Internment Camp.
https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/optics/tim ... pluta.html


PZO sold a system that could be configured in 5 separate ways, each one of which was dovetailed to certain applications. The one that most closely resembles the DIC as is mostly talked about uses a rotating carousel condenser which has 4 separate prisms, one for each objective and an interference head that also contains either 2 or 3 prisms depending on the age of the model. In that system, standard BF strain free objectives can be used.
Another version can replace the interference head with individual prisms in dedicated interference contrast objectives.
Another version uses both sets of upper prisms.
Another version uses a deformable slit condenser substage and the interference head and I believe there was another set up which may have used the slit condenser and the prism objectives.
The Zeiss Plast DIC system is an adaption of Pluta's slit condenser interference contrast system. Somehow they managed to patent it despite the fact that that 90% of it was pilfered.
Last edited by apochronaut on Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LouiseScot
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#34 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:11 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:43 pm
The PZO system was designed by Maksymilian Pluta ( Max Pluta). Since his background includes studying directly under Nomarski in Paris one would assume he used Nomarski prisms but the literature I have doesn't say definitively. Very good, very versatile and underrated system. PZO were marketing D.I.C. microscopes when the Japanese still thought the letters stood for Davao Internment Camp.
https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/optics/tim ... pluta.html
I did a quick lookup - I get the impression that each objective needs a matching condenser prism? I managed to find the objectives on ebay uk though they are more expensive from here. I couldn't find anything for the condenser end other than slit condensers?

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#35 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:13 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:43 pm


PZO sold a system that could be configured in 5 separate ways, each one of which was dovetailed to certain applications. The one that most closely resembles the DIC as is mostly talked about uses a rotating carousel condenser which has 4 separate prisms, one for each objective and an interference head that also contains either 2 or 3 prisms depending on the age of the model. In that system, standard BF strain free objectives can be used.
Another version can replace the interference head with individual prisms in dedicated interference contrast objectives.
Another version uses both sets of upper prisms.
Another version uses a deformable slit condenser substage and the interference head and I believe there was another set up which may have used the slit condenser and the prism objectives.
The Zeiss Plast DIC system is an adaption of Pluta's slit condenser interference contrast system. Somehow they managed to patent it despite the fact that that 90% of it was pilfered.
Too many versions! All a bit unclear...
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

apochronaut
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#36 Post by apochronaut » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:27 pm

It is all very logical and well laid out in an English language manual. No more complicated than any other DIC system, just more versatility. A great option for those interested in DIC but not wanting to spend a fortune---although some are now trying to extract maximum dollars due to the overt interest in DIC.

LouiseScot
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#37 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:30 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:27 pm
It is all very logical and well laid out in an English language manual. No more complicated than any other DIC system, just more versatility. A great option for those interested in DIC but not wanting to spend a fortune---although some are now trying to extract maximum dollars due to the overt interest in DIC.
I looked through the manual but it's still rather complicated - to me! Anyway, it does look like there is a 'condenser with compensators' option with prisms to match each objective. However, I couldn't see any for sale on Ebay... Maybe if I can get everything working with my current setup it might then be worth trying one of the PZO objectives with it.

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

apochronaut
Posts: 6271
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#38 Post by apochronaut » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:32 pm

That's really what I was thinking. One of those 40 or 100X objectives should show up for 70.00 or less and you have the rotary prism in there! I think I paid around 250.00 for my entire set of 4, shipping included. There are still n.o.s. PZO parts being sold. There must have been quite a few parts around when the company couldn't maintain solvency in the free market.

The prism carousel is often priced high these days as are the entire kits. The whole shebang came in a nice dovetailed wooden box and some want 2,000.00 for those kits now but they also go much cheaper. You don't need the substage prisms at this point do you? For some reason I thought it was the upper prism you were needing?

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
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Location: Scotland

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#39 Post by LouiseScot » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:45 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:32 pm
That's really what I was thinking. One of those 40 or 100X objectives should show up for 70.00 or less and you have the rotary prism in there! I think I paid around 250.00 for my entire set of 4, shipping included. There are still n.o.s. PZO parts being sold. There must have been quite a few parts around when the company couldn't maintain solvency in the free market.

The prism carousel is often priced high these days as are the entire kits. The whole shebang came in a nice dovetailed wooden box and some want 2,000.00 for those kits now but they also go much cheaper. You don't need the substage prisms at this point do you? For some reason I thought it was the upper prism you were needing?
I suppose the question is 'would the pzo objectives/prisms work with non-pzo condenser prisms?' I don't exactly need either but I was thinking about possibly getting a Nikon N2 condenser prism from Thorlabs. There's no way of knowing whether it would work with one of those PZO objective prisms. The Nikon N2 appears to work with any of the Nikon 20x-100x objectives. OTOH I could try buying say a 40x PZO and just try it out though it looks like they take a long time to ship... I should get a batch of various lenses from surplus shed tomorrow or Saturday. I'll see if I can use any of them to improve the condenser and Kohler illuminator. Then I'll have another go with the polycarbonate prisms and take it from there. I've not done anything with it all for a month - I must get back into it and finish what I started!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

MichaelG.
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#40 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:28 am

Returning to your opening question:
.
L.C. Martin and B.K. Johnson
L.C. Martin and B.K. Johnson
015C1A24-764D-4DE9-9C55-EB8427AF25E6.jpeg (328.74 KiB) Viewed 3039 times
.

First published 1931
Third Edition 1958

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
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Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#41 Post by LouiseScot » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:24 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:28 am
Returning to your opening question:
.

015C1A24-764D-4DE9-9C55-EB8427AF25E6.jpeg
.

First published 1931
Third Edition 1958

MichaelG.
Thanks, but that doesn't help me at all, I'm afraid! I was initially looking for some practical design details. The patents come close but tend to use complex lenses. I think the older ones were designed long before the now widely available aspheric condenser lenses. Anyway, as I said above, I'll just use what I have for now - maybe with the addition of an achromat entrance lens.

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#42 Post by LouiseScot » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:41 am

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:32 pm
That's really what I was thinking. One of those 40 or 100X objectives should show up for 70.00 or less and you have the rotary prism in there! I think I paid around 250.00 for my entire set of 4, shipping included. There are still n.o.s. PZO parts being sold. There must have been quite a few parts around when the company couldn't maintain solvency in the free market.

The prism carousel is often priced high these days as are the entire kits. The whole shebang came in a nice dovetailed wooden box and some want 2,000.00 for those kits now but they also go much cheaper. You don't need the substage prisms at this point do you? For some reason I thought it was the upper prism you were needing?
Hi apochronaut

Looking at some old posts, I get the impression that the 'DIC' objectives only work with the slit condenser?

viewtopic.php?p=74583#p74583

Just to double check - so those objectives on Ebay are classed as 'high image splitting objectives'? And therefore only work with the slit system? Is it the same as Hoffman Modulation but with one quartz prism?

Thanks

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

MichaelG.
Posts: 3976
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:24 am
Location: North Wales

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#43 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:20 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:24 am
Thanks, but that doesn't help me at all, I'm afraid! I was initially looking for some practical design details. The patents come close but tend to use complex lenses. I think the older ones were designed long before the now widely available aspheric condenser lenses. Anyway, as I said above, I'll just use what I have for now - maybe with the addition of an achromat entrance lens.
.

I actually posted that scan in the hope that it might save you wasting your effort
[ If you were thinking that adding an achromat entrance lens to an Abbe condenser would make ‘a silk purse’ ]

What condenser are you currently using ?

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#44 Post by LouiseScot » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:12 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:20 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:24 am
Thanks, but that doesn't help me at all, I'm afraid! I was initially looking for some practical design details. The patents come close but tend to use complex lenses. I think the older ones were designed long before the now widely available aspheric condenser lenses. Anyway, as I said above, I'll just use what I have for now - maybe with the addition of an achromat entrance lens.
.

I actually posted that scan in the hope that it might save you wasting your effort
[ If you were thinking that adding an achromat entrance lens to an Abbe condenser would make ‘a silk purse’ ]

What condenser are you currently using ?

MichaelG.
Just the one taken from the Swift 380T. Well, it's actually just the exit lens so that I have space for some sort of DIC prism behind. Currently that's a polycarbonate one. I have a kind of mix of lenses, field diaphragm and aperture diaphragm in between the LED and the prism and rear of the front condenser. I'm sure it can be improved but it might still do for now. Thanks for your thought!

ps Actually I just checked and it's all of the lens holding section - I've just unscrewed and removed the rear aperture diaphragm. I'd not done anything with it for a while and had forgotten! I'm not sure exactly how the spacing should work between a prism and lenses in a typical DIC condenser. If anyone has that info it would be very useful!

Louise
Last edited by LouiseScot on Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

apochronaut
Posts: 6271
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#45 Post by apochronaut » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:18 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:41 am
apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:32 pm
That's really what I was thinking. One of those 40 or 100X objectives should show up for 70.00 or less and you have the rotary prism in there! I think I paid around 250.00 for my entire set of 4, shipping included. There are still n.o.s. PZO parts being sold. There must have been quite a few parts around when the company couldn't maintain solvency in the free market.

The prism carousel is often priced high these days as are the entire kits. The whole shebang came in a nice dovetailed wooden box and some want 2,000.00 for those kits now but they also go much cheaper. You don't need the substage prisms at this point do you? For some reason I thought it was the upper prism you were needing?
Hi apochronaut

Looking at some old posts, I get the impression that the 'DIC' objectives only work with the slit condenser?

viewtopic.php?p=74583#p74583

Just to double check - so those objectives on Ebay are classed as 'high image splitting objectives'? And therefore only work with the slit system? Is it the same as Hoffman Modulation but with one quartz prism?

Thanks

Louise
Yes but also in combination with the bi-refringent prisms.

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#46 Post by LouiseScot » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:33 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:18 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:41 am
apochronaut wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:32 pm
That's really what I was thinking. One of those 40 or 100X objectives should show up for 70.00 or less and you have the rotary prism in there! I think I paid around 250.00 for my entire set of 4, shipping included. There are still n.o.s. PZO parts being sold. There must have been quite a few parts around when the company couldn't maintain solvency in the free market.

The prism carousel is often priced high these days as are the entire kits. The whole shebang came in a nice dovetailed wooden box and some want 2,000.00 for those kits now but they also go much cheaper. You don't need the substage prisms at this point do you? For some reason I thought it was the upper prism you were needing?
Hi apochronaut

Looking at some old posts, I get the impression that the 'DIC' objectives only work with the slit condenser?

viewtopic.php?p=74583#p74583

Just to double check - so those objectives on Ebay are classed as 'high image splitting objectives'? And therefore only work with the slit system? Is it the same as Hoffman Modulation but with one quartz prism?

Thanks

Louise
Yes but also in combination with the bi-refringent prisms.
It's still a little unclear... As I read it, to set up for what I would call 'normal' DIC, the condenser with compensators is used along with the interference head which incorporates 3 prisms together, and thence with 'standard' objectives. I couldn't see anywhere that indicates the 'dic' objectives can be used with the non-slit condenser. Am I missing something?

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

LouiseScot
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:51 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Aplanatic-Achromatic Condenser Design?

#47 Post by LouiseScot » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 am

LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:33 pm
apochronaut wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:18 pm
LouiseScot wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:41 am

Hi apochronaut

Looking at some old posts, I get the impression that the 'DIC' objectives only work with the slit condenser?

viewtopic.php?p=74583#p74583

Just to double check - so those objectives on Ebay are classed as 'high image splitting objectives'? And therefore only work with the slit system? Is it the same as Hoffman Modulation but with one quartz prism?

Thanks

Louise
Yes but also in combination with the bi-refringent prisms.
It's still a little unclear... As I read it, to set up for what I would call 'normal' DIC, the condenser with compensators is used along with the interference head which incorporates 3 prisms together, and thence with 'standard' objectives. I couldn't see anywhere that indicates the 'dic' objectives can be used with the non-slit condenser. Am I missing something?

Louise
If anyone else is interested in the PZO system, the Biolar PI manual is quite explicit about using the objectives with prisms:


PZO_Biolar PI_objectivesInfo.JPG
PZO_Biolar PI_objectivesInfo.JPG (76.67 KiB) Viewed 2940 times


Although the slit + prism is a slightly interesting technique in itself (similar to PlasDIC?), I guess the need to use the slit must limit the objectives effective NA/resolution.

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

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