LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

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SonoranDesertRat
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LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#1 Post by SonoranDesertRat » Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:18 pm

Hello Microbe Hunters!

I am taking a soil food web course online and in their microscope recommendations they listed Amscope and Omax as cheaper options and then listed LW scientific as a supplier of more premium options. I was unable to find any meaningful reviews for LW Scientific microscopes online anywhere which made me a bit suspicious. I eventually stumbled on the Amscope T720 (and T720Q which is the 5 objective variant) and noticed it looks identical to the LW Scientific "Innovation" biological microscope. In fact I've been able to find Amscope microscopes that appear to be identical to each of the 3 microscope lines LW Scientific offers.

There is an enormous price difference between the two, even factoring in the 40% discount I can get on the LW Scientific model via the Soil Food Web classes. I know that Amscope assembles a bunch of different microscopes from various manufacturers in Asia and just brands them as its own. I assume LW Scientific is doing the same thing, but trying to position themselves as a more quality manufacturer or something?

Is there actually any difference between these models in terms of manufacturing quality or optics? The pictures of the objectives look 100% identical to me. I'm willing to pay more for quality but I'm definitely not willing to pay more for branding/white labeling shenanigans. I considered just emailing LW Scientific to ask about it but it seems unlikely I'd get an honest answer if they are actually the same scope.

Any thoughts/insights would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Here are links to the scopes in question for convenience:
LW Scientific - Innovation
Amscope - T720

farnsy
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#2 Post by farnsy » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:03 pm

It seems to me that you understand the situation very well. I think those are exactly the same scope, with different labels on them. I don't think AmScope nor LW assemble them. They just buy from a factory that throws the label on them before shipping.

That particular microscope is available under quite a few brands.

Scarodactyl
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#3 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:27 pm

The main potential difference would be in QC and support. Amscope is uneven on both, no idea on LW.
If I were you I'd consider a used scope from a name brand, at least if you're in the US where the used market is particularly rich.
Last edited by Scarodactyl on Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

SonoranDesertRat
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#4 Post by SonoranDesertRat » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:06 pm

I've heard that LW Scientific has pretty good support and they also don't make you jump through hoops to get the product manuals like Amscope allegedly does. Of course that probably doesn't make it worth being 2-3x the price for the equipment being roughly the same.

Can you elaborate a bit on the potential for QC differences? If these companies are just reselling something made by another factory do they really have any input into the output quality?

Or is it potentially similar to "binning" in electronics and other industries where the manufacturer ends up with product yield of varying quality and the reseller might be choosing a higher graded bin from which to sell stock?


I have been looking a little bit into the used market since I am in the US. So far it seems a lot harder to find trinocular options than binocular. Any suggestions for models to look for that have similar feature set to the T720? Ideally I'd like to keep the scope itself under $1k but can be flexible if quality/features warrant it.

PeteM
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#5 Post by PeteM » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:13 pm

You should easily find a good used trinocular scope under $1K. Suggestions would include Olympus BH2, Nikon Labophot or Optiphot, and perhaps a Leitz Laborlux or Zeiss Standard. Some with polarization or phase contrast, which could be useful for soil biology.

When you have enough posts to send a PM, I could send you a copy of the guide to various microscope brands and models we use for mentors in our "Micronaut" program. There are half a dozen other models you might find very affordable and of equal quality to a new $1K Chinese scope.

As for LW Scientific - they've resold models from Japan, China, and India over the years. What little experience I've had suggests they are (like AmScope) a pretty decent supplier with limited tech support. It really depends on the particular model you'd be buying.

If you're somewhat "handy" I'd suggest a good used model, that you can either inspect for yourself or bought from a reliable source. It will be better built, of equal or better optical quality, and have far more (and more affordable) upgrade options if you later find yourself want things like Plan Apo objectives, reflected options, or even DIC.

If you prefer to buy something new out of the box, I'd suggest buying from somewhere like Amazon (and from Amazon) where you can easily return it if it proves to have problems.

LouiseScot
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#6 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:20 pm

SonoranDesertRat wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:18 pm
Hello Microbe Hunters!

I am taking a soil food web course online and in their microscope recommendations they listed Amscope and Omax as cheaper options and then listed LW scientific as a supplier of more premium options. I was unable to find any meaningful reviews for LW Scientific microscopes online anywhere which made me a bit suspicious. I eventually stumbled on the Amscope T720 (and T720Q which is the 5 objective variant) and noticed it looks identical to the LW Scientific "Innovation" biological microscope. In fact I've been able to find Amscope microscopes that appear to be identical to each of the 3 microscope lines LW Scientific offers.

There is an enormous price difference between the two, even factoring in the 40% discount I can get on the LW Scientific model via the Soil Food Web classes. I know that Amscope assembles a bunch of different microscopes from various manufacturers in Asia and just brands them as its own. I assume LW Scientific is doing the same thing, but trying to position themselves as a more quality manufacturer or something?

Is there actually any difference between these models in terms of manufacturing quality or optics? The pictures of the objectives look 100% identical to me. I'm willing to pay more for quality but I'm definitely not willing to pay more for branding/white labeling shenanigans. I considered just emailing LW Scientific to ask about it but it seems unlikely I'd get an honest answer if they are actually the same scope.

Any thoughts/insights would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Here are links to the scopes in question for convenience:
LW Scientific - Innovation
Amscope - T720
Hi

The 'Innovation' model seems overpriced to me. The Amscope will probably be fine. You can save a bit by not buying the camera with it e.g. https://amscope.com/products/t720qb Similarly with the non-quintuple nosepiece version :)

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

farnsy
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#7 Post by farnsy » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:23 pm

Maybe it's just me but I'd definitely go for the quintuple version. In my opinion, there's a lot of usability difference between 4 and 5 objectives. Love that 20X magnification (or 60X, if you prefer)!

SonoranDesertRat
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#8 Post by SonoranDesertRat » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:56 pm

PeteM wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:13 pm
You should easily find a good used trinocular scope under $1K. Suggestions would include Olympus BH2, Nikon Labophot or Optiphot, and perhaps a Leitz Laborlux or Zeiss Standard. Some with polarization or phase contrast, which could be useful for soil biology.

When you have enough posts to send a PM, I could send you a copy of the guide to various microscope brands and models we use for mentors in our "Micronaut" program. There are half a dozen other models you might find very affordable and of equal quality to a new $1K Chinese scope.

As for LW Scientific - they've resold models from Japan, China, and India over the years. What little experience I've had suggests they are (like AmScope) a pretty decent supplier with limited tech support. It really depends on the particular model you'd be buying.

If you're somewhat "handy" I'd suggest a good used model, that you can either inspect for yourself or bought from a reliable source. It will be better built, of equal or better optical quality, and have far more (and more affordable) upgrade options if you later find yourself want things like Plan Apo objectives, reflected options, or even DIC.

If you prefer to buy something new out of the box, I'd suggest buying from somewhere like Amazon (and from Amazon) where you can easily return it if it proves to have problems.
First off thank you and everyone else who has responded already so far, very helpful!

How many posts do I need to be able to unlock PMs on this forum? I am interested that guide you mentioned.

One thing I'm noticing with the models you suggested that I've looked up so far (the Olympus and Nikon ones) is that they seem to use 160mm focal point optics rather than infinity optics, and they also utilize Halogen instead of LED for illumination. It is possible that there are different models within each series that have varying optics, I haven't gotten that deep yet. How important are those factors? I know infinity optics makes it easier to add things to the optical path but I'm not sure how often that issue comes up in practice or if there are other aspects to infinity optics that make them better than 160mm. Regardless I'm assuming that 160mm optics from higher end manufacturers would still be better than infinity optics from a new Chinese scope but I'm just trying to fully understand all of the tradeoffs involved.

LouiseScot
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#9 Post by LouiseScot » Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:37 pm

Hi

You do pay a premium for infinity optics. The design has to include a tube lens though I find it hard to figure how they justify the overall higher price of an infinity scope. It seems like just marketing to me. Most of the time a much cheaper finite conjugated scope will do as good as job.
The price of upgrade objectives does vary. An achromat or plan achromat as usually supplied with most budget scopes is usually good enough for most things. It all depends on exactly what you plan to do/use the instrument for. You can look through the pictures and videos section to see what other users on here have produced and with what equipment (though you might have to ask for the details).

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

apochronaut
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#10 Post by apochronaut » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:06 am

Nobody is designing superior finite optics anymore. Maybe there is some obscure little niche application somewhere but the development of finite optical systems is as dead as the Ed Sullivan show.....and Ed was dead for the last 3 or 4 years of the show. All development in microscope optics for the past almost 30 years has been in infinity systems.
The fact that China continues to offer 160mm optics for sale is that the tried and true designs that they work from are cheaply and easily reclipable. Not much in the way of engineering required. This allows them to make cheap entry level optics and put them into cheap microscopes. Cha-ching! Chinese infinity systems are copied as well but they have the latter decades of advancement in microscope optics courtesy of AO, Olympus and Nikon to copy and continue to copy from, so some actual optical advancements within the infinity systems are there. Most of the infinity systems are plan optical systems as well, whereas a considerable number of the 160 tube systems are simple achromats or semi-plan designs from half a century ago.
Infinity optics are just better quality optics and therefore more expensive, if only due to the fact that advancements over the last 30 years are likely in them and not likely in the aged finite optics.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#11 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:27 am

When looking at the used market as well it might be more accurate to say merely that the best optics are infinity optics, but that there is some considerable overlap in the moderately good category as I have found just in the last few days an inferior infinity lens.

If buying newly produced stuff I would certainly steer to the infinity as I don't think there exists any high-end research market for excellent finite optics and therefore they just aren't produced, old design or not.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

PeteM
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#12 Post by PeteM » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:46 am

With respect to "finite" versus "infinity" optics, the latter have been adopted by leading makers because it makes it easier and cheaper to add multiple imaging modalities. The actual optical quality of the older finite systems was about the same, comparing 1980's finite to 1990's and beyond infinite - but when you added a polarizing head, an epi head, DIC, fluorescence, etc. the finite systems required an additional compensating lens. Most hobbyists don't need to have multiple modes available at one time - and most lower cost makers either don't offer them or charge significant amounts to add them (compared to used).

With respect to lower cost makers, just about everyone is using computer-controlled lens grinding machines to make their objectives whether in China, Japan, Germany, etc. The cost is essentially the same to make finite or infinite objectives. The better makers will offer higher accuracy designs (better glass, more elements), better lens coatings, and take care in assembly to make sure objectives are parfocal and parcentered. The lower cost makers can sill make lower accuracy designs that are quite good and affordable.

Bottom line - I doubt you'd notice any image quality difference between something like a Nikon Labophot with standard Plan Achromat objectives and a top of the line Amscope with Plan Achromat objectives. With the Nikon, you might find the "CFN" plan achromats just a bit better and the Plan Fluors and Plan Apos significantly better.

There's a similar story with halogen vs. LED. LED is cheaper to produce up to about 3 watts intensity and has a few advantages in terms of lamp life and the heat generated. Halogen systems of 20 watts and up are entirely adequate for most imaging and those with 50-100 watts brighter than all but the most expensive LED designs.

SonoranDesertRat
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#13 Post by SonoranDesertRat » Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:46 am

Thanks everyone, I appreciate all of the good advice you've shared.

Gatorengineer64
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#14 Post by Gatorengineer64 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:48 am

I have done alot of exploring lately with comparing modern and vintage optics for some reason I find Zeiss 160mm APOs and NeoFluars to be a bit better than infinity Achros, at a small fraction of the price of Infinity objectives to boot. I would buy a used 160mm body, $100 max (an old zeiss as an example), put 5 NeoFluar Zeisses on it ($200) a zeiss Achro Condenser $50, and a pair of Chinese Eyepieces 22mm eyepieces on it for $50, and I would have a better scope optically than the one grand Chinese special.

Gatorengineer64
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#15 Post by Gatorengineer64 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:52 am

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/131273526

or my preference with Infinity optics

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/131347905

With the death of science in America, a lot of gear is almost free.

SonoranDesertRat
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#16 Post by SonoranDesertRat » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:11 pm

I ultimately decided to acquire something used. Bid on a bunch of stuff at once between university surplus auctions and Goodwill's online auction site which probably wasn't too wise. I came dangerously close to winning 4 separate auctions :lol: Fortunately I lost the two Goodwill ones (a Zeiss and a Reichert Microstar IV) so I only ended up with two.

I am now the proud owner of two Olympus BH-2 (BHTU) scopes from a University of Iowa surplus auction. They should arrive tomorrow so I'll have a better idea of how good of condition they are in at that time. I figure with two units odds are pretty good that I can piece together one well working scope.

They were listed as "trinocular polarizing" but I'm pretty sure they are neither trinocular or polarizing based on the pics. One of them is a regular binocular head and the other one has one of those attachments with two binocular heads on it. I figure since I'm going to start photography with just a smartphone camera adapter that it should be pretty easy to just attach the phone to one of the eye pieces on the dual head unit, then it doesn't really matter that it's not a trinoc head.

If I regret it later I can just find a used trinocular head and swap it out.

I've been watching a lot of BH-2 restoration videos on YouTube this week in eager anticipation!

Thanks again everyone for the advice. I was hesitant at first but now I'm pretty excited about going this route instead of the new Amscope.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#17 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:14 pm

Having two is good you can combine the best parts of them
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Gatorengineer64
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#18 Post by Gatorengineer64 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:24 pm

you will have alot of fun with it. Not sure I would have picked that scope to start with but..... fun none the less. Me when I wanted to upgrade my Aus Jena labolux, I went to a NIkon Alphaphot. Complete joke of a scope, not even elementary school quality.... then I went Eclipse 400/600, now I am settling into Zeiss, The Axioscope feels a lot less plasticky than the Eclipse, and the vintage zeiss, Universal, and the black brass stuff, feels Alot better than the axioscope.

Have fun with it, and don't be afraid to make offers on Ebay.

SonoranDesertRat
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#19 Post by SonoranDesertRat » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:11 pm

Any particular reason you wouldn't have gone with that scope to start? Just curious what shortcomings I should be on the lookout for.

Seemed like I was able to find more information/videos about fixing them and stuff so that seemed like a potential advantage. But I really have no idea what I'm in for, should be fun regardless :D

Scarodactyl
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#20 Post by Scarodactyl » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:37 pm

The bh2 platform is robust and exceptionally well documented. I wouldn't worry about the choice, you should be in good shape.

Gatorengineer64
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Re: LW Scientific "Innovation" vs Amscope "T720" - Any Difference?

#21 Post by Gatorengineer64 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:45 pm

No Scar is of course correct its a well documented platform. My two comments on it are

1) Its a relatively expensive platform
2) Not much metal in one.

I learned the hard way with my Eclipses, and then I got my hands on an old Zeiss, and well it was love. Building out a Zeiss WL or a Standard would cost you about a third of the cost of a a Nikon or Oly when you want something better than an Achro objective. The only downside are 23MM tubes. Phase, Epi, and Pol are all much cheaper to get to on a Zeiss, and the mechanics are IMHO a lot better, but its a hobby and have fun with it.

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