Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

Everything relating to microscopy hardware: Objectives, eyepieces, lamps and more.
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sstephenson
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Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#1 Post by sstephenson » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:35 pm

Hello all. I'm interested in purchasing a stereo zoom microscope that I can use for photography of insects, plants, etc. I'm confused by all the options available, so I have some questions that I would love to get some feedback on. Important considerations for my choice will be: 1) I need a trinocular scope, 2) I need continuous zoom capability, 3) I want to attach an LED ring light, 4) I need a generous zoom magnification range, 5) I want true stereo images through the eyepieces.

I see Amscope has something that they call "SIMUL-FOCAL". Based on what I've read, I'm guessing that this feature means that the eyepieces can be made parfocal with the camera on the trinocular port. Is that right? I thought that all trinocular scopes could do this. Am I wrong?

I'm fine with either a new or used scope as long as it fits my needs and my budget (< $500 ?). Any recommendations? I'd greatly prefer something we'll built, sturdy, with good optics, and readily retrofitted with parts/accessories.

Thanks for your help!
Steve

mete
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#2 Post by mete » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:30 am

I have a (Zeiss, greenough type) stereo but dont know much about other brands. Rough parfocality with the camera port is I think default but I say rough because a fine tuning might be needed anyway with DSLR, maybe it is better with C-mount cameras. I have a 100/0 trinocular, so I move 100% of light from right side to camera port when I want, there are also 50/50 ones, where both always receive light. To be honest, it is a difficult decision 100/0 vs 50/50, you should consider your primary use I guess.

I have continuous zoom but not sure if it is that important, I dont think I ever stay in between two magnifications, but of course it is very convenient.

It is better to check the accessories of the device before buying such as ring light, different stages, different front optics (to have extra magnification eg 2x, or to have more working distance/view eg 0.63x). You might want to use polarizer/analyzer in the future, so it would be good to check that too.

Greenough types, (which are true stereo, but I havent used a CMO type so I cannot tell you the difference) are limited to around 5-6.3x I think. With front optics I have max. 10x (meaning 100x with eyepiece). CMO designs can go up to 16x or so I guess, without any extra optics.

There are also transmitted light stands if you are interested.

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#3 Post by patta » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:38 am

Here too, I've never understood what this "simul-focal" actually mean. ?

PeteM
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#4 Post by PeteM » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:01 am

If high quality photos are the main objective (flat fields, lacking aberration), and the budget is under $500, you might want to consider something else (macro rig, macroscope, something like a Wild 3c with a movable camera port, etc.) beside a conventional stereo zoom microscope.

Simultaneous focusing and photo work usually means splitting the light from one side of the stereo microscope - half or so intensity to the trinocular port for the camera and the other to one eye. Because it's a stereo, you're either working with a small diameter tilted optical system or putting the image off axis in a "common mode" objective. And because it's a zoom, made to a price point, the optics will be of modest quality.

If you just want to view things and take pictures now and then for documentation, the AmScope is affordable and usable. A used scope could offer a step up in quality, if you're able to find a good model and check it out in person (or from a reliable seller) to make sure it's in good shape.

Do you already have a camera you want to use?
Last edited by PeteM on Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

mete
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#5 Post by mete » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:12 am

This reminded me if you want to take really good looking photos, stacking is a must and although it is possible to do by hand at low magnification (adjusting fine focus), it is much better with an automatic system (eg motorized macro rail). At 1x, some cameras (Fuji) have built in focus bracketing, which is the simplest and the best way to go. At higher magnification, a low mag. objective lens (maybe up to 20x) in a custom tube connected to camera mounted on a motorized macro rail is a way to go but it is an expensive setup. At even higher magnification, I think (just guessing, no experience) a piezo stage is the best but very expensive.

jfiresto
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#6 Post by jfiresto » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:36 am

patta wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:38 am
Here too, I've never understood what this "simul-focal" actually mean. ?
I think simul-focal is Amscope-speak for:
  • the camera "can be used simultaneously with both eyepieces" [by design]
  • the camera and the eyepieces both stay in focus as you zoom in and out [in practice].
The first implies the microscope has a couple beamsplitters in the light paths rather than plain prisms or mirrors; the second, that the camera port was designed for the microscope.
-John

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#7 Post by jfiresto » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:55 am

PeteM wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:01 am
If high quality photos are the main objective (flat fields, lacking aberration), and the budget is under $500, you might want to consider something else (macro rig, macroscope, something like a Wild 3c with a movable camera port, etc.) beside a conventional stereo zoom microscope....
Or perhaps a Greenough-design stereo microscope if you can tilt the microscope or the specimen to make them square to each other. It may be hard to find a trinocular CMO microscope for less than $500 that lets you center one light path over the objective, a microscope such as the Wild M3C-S.
-John

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#8 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:01 am

patta wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:38 am
Here too, I've never understood what this "simul-focal" actually mean. ?
I found Amscope’s description, and posted it here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13961

[ Unfortunately, that thread appears to be currently dormant. ]

MichaelG.
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#9 Post by jfiresto » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:09 am

Think positive waves. The OP has only been away for four days, perhaps for a long weekend or a few experiments?
-John

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#10 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:46 pm

[ duplicate removed ]
Last edited by MichaelG. on Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#11 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:46 pm

jfiresto wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:09 am
Think positive waves. The OP has only been away for four days, perhaps for a long weekend or a few experiments?
Thanks for your guidance, wise one !

‘currently dormant’ was my feeble attempt at positivity :oops:

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jfiresto
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#12 Post by jfiresto » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:07 pm

Ohhhh, I should have started my reply that I am thinking positive waves, that the four days could be a pregnant pause.

It would be fun to play with a simul-focal Amscope to fully realize what it is about.
-John

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#13 Post by dtsh » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:33 pm

I had wondered about the "simul-focal" when I was looking at their stereos a while back and I got the impression it was the ability to see through both the eyepieces and camera at the same time; which if correct means there's a beamsplitter and one will always need more lighting than with a more traditional design of swinging in a mirror/prism as the lightpath is always being split between the two.

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#14 Post by sstephenson » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:00 pm

Thank you all very much for your thoughts and recommendations. I'll spend some time this evening digesting them. I'm sure that I'll have additional questions! ;)

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#15 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:17 pm

dtsh wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:33 pm
I had wondered about the "simul-focal" when I was looking at their stereos a while back and I got the impression it was the ability to see through both the eyepieces and camera at the same time; which if correct means there's a beamsplitter and one will always need more lighting than with a more traditional design of swinging in a mirror/prism as the lightpath is always being split between the two.
.
That does appear to be the case … and, from the way Amscope’s statement is worded; there is only need for a beamsplitter in the left channel :
This is accomplished by sharing the left objective lens with the left ocular and the photo-port.
I would be interested, therefore, to know what they do with the right channel, and whether the visual illumination levels are accurately matched.

So far I have failed to find a helpful illustration :(

MichaelG.
.

Edit: __ This still doesn’t tell us what’s inside … but it nicely illustrates the advantage:
https://youtu.be/XbmzXHGt_6k
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sstephenson
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#16 Post by sstephenson » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:20 pm

So if I understand correctly, in Amscope's "Simul-Focal" trinocular system there is no way to shunt 100% of the light to the camera port. It will always receive some fraction of the total light. This is the trade-off for the convenience of being able to simultaneously use the eyepieces and the camera port at the same time. Right?

Also, (I'm guessing, since I haven't actually seen one), in Amscope's non-"simul-focal" trinocular scopes you can either shunt 100% of the light to the eyepieces or 100% to the camera port. Is that correct?

So how do other popular manufacturer's stereo trinocular microscope ports work? 100% to either eyepieces or camera port also, or...???

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#17 Post by MichaelG. » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:57 pm

sstephenson wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:20 pm
So if I understand correctly, in Amscope's "Simul-Focal" trinocular system there is no way to shunt 100% of the light to the camera port. It will always receive some fraction of the total light. This is the trade-off for the convenience of being able to simultaneously use the eyepieces and the camera port at the same time. Right? … Right

Also, (I'm guessing, since I haven't actually seen one), in Amscope's non-"simul-focal" trinocular scopes you can either shunt 100% of the light to the eyepieces or 100% to the camera port. Is that correct? … not quite : the right eyepiece remains useable visually, and the left channel is either visual, or photo.

So how do other popular manufacturer's stereo trinocular microscope ports work? 100% to either eyepieces or camera port also, or...??? : generally similar to Amscope’s non “simul-focal” but you will probably find someone has used every variation on the theme.
Answers in-line ^^^

MichaelG.
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sstephenson
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#18 Post by sstephenson » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:55 pm

Thanks for clarifying Michael!

Scarodactyl
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#19 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:14 am

The approach varies a lot from model to model, and many are made with either or both options since they serve different usecases.

dtsh
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#20 Post by dtsh » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:56 am

sstephenson wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:20 pm
So if I understand correctly, in Amscope's "Simul-Focal" trinocular system there is no way to shunt 100% of the light to the camera port. It will always receive some fraction of the total light. This is the trade-off for the convenience of being able to simultaneously use the eyepieces and the camera port at the same time. Right?

Also, (I'm guessing, since I haven't actually seen one), in Amscope's non-"simul-focal" trinocular scopes you can either shunt 100% of the light to the eyepieces or 100% to the camera port. Is that correct?

So how do other popular manufacturer's stereo trinocular microscope ports work? 100% to either eyepieces or camera port also, or...???
I can't comment on how a *modern* one does it, but the AO Cycloptic redirects the path of the left eyepiece into the camera port by flipping a mirror into the path so the camera port gets 50% and one can still view with the right.
I'm not sure any system will get 100% from a stereo microscope due to the nature of the system and the stereo view, but there might be systems out there which do and I'm just entirely ignorant of them (a high liklihood).

With digital cameras, I'm not sure having any light available for the eyepieces matters much, if at all; at that point, it's easy enough to just watch a screen to see what the camera does.

sstephenson
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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#21 Post by sstephenson » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:41 am

Thank you all for your insights!

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Re: Stereo Zoom Microscope Questions

#22 Post by mete » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:20 am

sstephenson wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:20 pm
So how do other popular manufacturer's stereo trinocular microscope ports work? 100% to either eyepieces or camera port also, or...???
0/100 or 50/50 is an option to choose in Zeiss Stemi 508, whereas 305 only has 50/50 option. I have 0/100, and happy with it but switching from eyepiece to camera is sometimes inconvenient if you simultaneously use them, but the gathered light is not much esp. in high magnification, so using all of the available light is not a bad idea. Would I choose 50/50 now ? I dont know :)

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