Which objectives for photography?

Everything relating to microscopy hardware: Objectives, eyepieces, lamps and more.
Message
Author
User avatar
josmann
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:23 am
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#61 Post by josmann » Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:51 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:18 pm
In photomicrography we're almost always on or near the cutting edge of diffraction, and cropping a bunch of the image is not particularly helpful on that front. For some subjects it doesn't matter--diatoms and bacteria and such are the size they are and you're often going to be cropping anyway even with 100x mag. But just by the numbers if you have an objective with a wide 25mm fn, then slap on a 2.5x magnification factor on aps-c with a 27mm diagonal your effective field number ends up being more like 11mm. All your objectives are essentially acting like they have more than twice the magnification but the same NA on camera. With a 20x/0.75 that might still be pretty workable, but with a 40x/0.75 the picture is different.

If you're imaging singular subjects and only care about the center of the fov anyway that's really not a problem. But if a wider field helps it's a whole lot nicer be able to capture the field of a 20x objective with your higher resolution 20x objective rather than having to use your 10x. And just from a monetary point of view, a lot of what you pay for with many high end objectives is better performance over a wider field. If you crop it heavily you're losing a lot of that benefit.

That said I mostly work with gems and minerals, so there are lots of subjects and compositions across a wide magnification range. I also mostly use longer working distance objectives so diffraction is a particular concern if I push things too far.
Tons of very enlightening stuff in this comment.

I think first of all I would say that I'm a microscopy enthusiast first and a photomicroscopy enthusiast second. For me, it's personally seeing cool, excellent scenes through the eyepieces that is of foremost concern. Relaying those images to others is secondary - I'd rather the audience get their own microscopes and experience the same.

And then of course I'm also primarily into microbes - so wide fields of view are secondary to nice, highly resolved images of little critters ~200um or smaller. I am particularly fond of my high NA 10x and 20x objectives because of how much flexibility they give me for zooming and cropping. As you've said, your application has very different requirements.

So yeah, I can't disagree with anything you've said - it all makes total sense. It's really helpful to read stuff like this because it helps me understand my internal biases. I think it's worth pointing out nuances like this since threads on this forum get read years and years down the line completely out of the original context - at least I do that :lol:
The highest quality live-streamed microscopy in the world.
Sundays around 8PST: https://www.youtube.com/@diettoms/streams
Occasionally (for now): https://www.twitch.tv/diettoms

Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/FgpUUnJaSE

Chas
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:11 pm

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#62 Post by Chas » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:51 pm

" E Plan - kind of meh. Quite a lot of CA which I'm rather sensitive to. Probably pretty similar to new Chinese plan achromats. I wouldn't invest in them if I wanted to do photography, but totally fine for viewing."

Are these the same?... they look pretty similar :
https://www.edmundoptics.eu/f/nikon-ach ... ves/13510/

I may have been unlucky ..but the (eBay) Chinese Plans are worse than any lens, off any old 1950's 'workhorse' microscope, except for the fact that they are not full of dirt .
The 3 Nikon lenses however are a pleasure to look through.
[ And they seem to be OK for direct projection photography...at least, they havent the wierd chromatic effects of my Chinese lenses :-( ]

...Of course I might not be using the right correction eyepiece with the Chinese plans ..but I have tried quite a few (maybe just not the right ones !)

PeteM
Posts: 3013
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#63 Post by PeteM » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:25 pm

FWIW, I've been pretty happy with older Nikon plan achromat objectives, especially the ones with heavier chromed brass bodies. Even more so with the higher numerical aperture and better corrected CFN objectives.

Scarodactyl
Posts: 2790
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#64 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:41 pm

Chas wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:51 pm
I may have been unlucky ..but the (eBay) Chinese Plans are worse than any lens, off any old 1950's 'workhorse' microscope, except for the fact that they are not full of dirt .
Some can be good, some are bad.
Funny example:
https://www.closeuphotography.com/seven ... -objective
Wow. Great performance for 17 bucks! Sign me up! And some suppliers have identical-looking lenses for even cheaper?? But soon people were complaining that they couldn't reproduce the results.
Turns out:
Image
Thanks to photomacrography user len for providing this image (click for the thread). At least one user has reported one they got from amscope was the poorer performing model, not the good one.

User avatar
josmann
Posts: 340
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:23 am
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#65 Post by josmann » Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:26 am

Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:41 pm
Wow. Great performance for 17 bucks! Sign me up! And some suppliers have identical-looking lenses for even cheaper?? But soon people were complaining that they couldn't reproduce the results.
There’s a Russian guy over on reddit who bought a Chinese motic-esque infinity microscope and has been posting full field photos taken with his iPhone. According to the marketing, it has achromat objectives. But they all have that .05 NA bump you see on higher quality objectives. Moreover, even though they’re not labelled plan objectives, we haven’t been able to see any indication of field curvature out to the perimeter. Still not 100% sure but the image quality is excellent.

It got me thinking that I would not be at all surprised if sometimes higher quality objectives got wrapped up in low end clothes. Like if some Chinese optics factory runs into supply chain issues or line down scenarios and has an excess of high end objectives, the economics might make sense to just ship out some from the higher quality bin.
The highest quality live-streamed microscopy in the world.
Sundays around 8PST: https://www.youtube.com/@diettoms/streams
Occasionally (for now): https://www.twitch.tv/diettoms

Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/FgpUUnJaSE

viktor j nilsson
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#66 Post by viktor j nilsson » Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:41 pm

PeteM wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:57 pm
viktor j nilsson wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:08 am
. . .
Seems like I will finally be able to test out a pair of CFWN eyepieces next week. I found some for a price I couldn't resist, that also happened to be attached to a Nikon Diaphot 300 with DIC, fluorescence, a Fluor 40x 1.30, and a 60x 1.40 PlanApo... for $500, all in. :D
Wow, Viktor. You bought a 60x Plan Apo and got a free Diaphot complete with DIC and fluorescence.
Picked it up a couple of days ago! Turned out to be an even better deal than I could ever have imagined. The microscope was loaded on a pallet together with tons of extras that weren't even shown in the auction photos:

-150w metal halide illuminator with liquid light guide (for the transmitted illumination port)
-Sutter DG-5 motorized wavelength switcher (175w Xenon Arc) with liquid light guide (for the epi-fluorescence illuminator port) and four pristine dichroic excitation filters.
-Ludl motorized stage, motorized emission filter wheel changer (unknown number of filters) and shutter attachment for the transmitted light port
-Ludl MAC2002 control unit for the motorized parts (all cables color-coded!)
-2x high-quality 120v-240v converters
-Plan Fluor 10x and 20, CFN 10x DIC, Fluor 40x 1.30 and PlanApo 60x 1.40 objectives with lots of dust but good-looking glass (haven't been able to look through them yet, so could still be in for a surprise).
-two pretty neat-looking temperature control units

The DIC equipment is complete and the condenser has two prisms (0.5NA and 0.5-1.0NA), full set of objective prisms. All the components needed for controlling the motorized stage, filters and shutter looks complete (except for a missing joystick), and all the mechanics move smoothly. Everything needs a good clean, and I haven't tested the lights yet. But there is a decent chance that I just need to find a compatible joystick, and a serial cable, possibly a bulb or two, and then I should have a fully motorized DIC and epi fluorescence microscope that I can control with Micro-manager...

Totally crazy!

[Sorry for continuing to hijack this thread, I'll make my own thread about it eventually]

PeteM
Posts: 3013
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#67 Post by PeteM » Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:23 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:41 pm
. . . Turned out to be an even better deal than I could ever have imagined. The microscope was loaded on a pallet together with tons of extras that weren't even shown in the auction photos . . .
Viktor, who says Santa isn't real? You've obviously been not a bit naughty, near 99.999% nice. This should provide great fun in the years ahead.

FWIW, still on the holiday theme (at least the US mythic version), I've been looking for slides with coal formation samples. Could be an interesting lesson for kids. It seems I should have put up a stocking last night. Maybe just a bit of carefully calculated naughty would have gotten me the thinnest slivers of coal, mounted on glass, rather than the usual lumps?

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4288
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#68 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:14 pm

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:41 pm
...But there is a decent chance that I just need to find a compatible joystick, and a serial cable, possibly a bulb or two, and then I should have a fully motorized DIC and epi fluorescence microscope that I can control with Micro-manager...
I would ask Ludl about the joystick.
Congratulations on this great acquisition.

viktor j nilsson
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:12 pm
Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#69 Post by viktor j nilsson » Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:18 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:14 pm
viktor j nilsson wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:41 pm
...But there is a decent chance that I just need to find a compatible joystick, and a serial cable, possibly a bulb or two, and then I should have a fully motorized DIC and epi fluorescence microscope that I can control with Micro-manager...
I would ask Ludl about the joystick.
Congratulations on this great acquisition.
Thanks! I believe Ludl would have been accommodating if I had asked them - they seem to provide very good technical support even for older equipment. A testament of a good company, IMHO. I found good documentation about the Mac2002 system on their homepage, which included a list of compatible joysticks with DB25 connectors. Searching for the different model numbers helped me track down a compatible joystick, which I have now bought for a somewhat reasonable price (although every additional expense will sound expensive when expressed as a proportion of the price I paid for the whole lot...).

Hobbyst46
Posts: 4288
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Re: Which objectives for photography?

#70 Post by Hobbyst46 » Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:52 am

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:18 am
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:14 pm
viktor j nilsson wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:41 pm
...But there is a decent chance that I just need to find a compatible joystick, and a serial cable, possibly a bulb or two, and then I should have a fully motorized DIC and epi fluorescence microscope that I can control with Micro-manager...
I would ask Ludl about the joystick.
Congratulations on this great acquisition.
Thanks! I believe Ludl would have been accommodating if I had asked them - they seem to provide very good technical support even for older equipment. A testament of a good company, IMHO. I found good documentation about the Mac2002 system on their homepage, which included a list of compatible joysticks with DB25 connectors. Searching for the different model numbers helped me track down a compatible joystick, which I have now bought for a somewhat reasonable price (although every additional expense will sound expensive when expressed as a proportion of the price I paid for the whole lot...).
Great ! I had the same experience with Ludl.
Stone age... copper age... bronze age... iron age... DB25... DB25->DB9... :)

Post Reply