experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

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Milou
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experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#1 Post by Milou » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:10 pm

Hello,

Anybody already used such a 1x plan objective (for compound microscope) for observation and/or pictures?
I would be interested to know about your experience...

I have already a setup on a Leitz microscope for macrophoto (with tubes and a M 4/3 camera instead of microscope head), but my objective with the lowest magnification is a plan 2.5x nikon

I would like to try therefore a 1x for very large items and to get overview

There are few 1x objective models as I could see, at "low" or moderate prices (I can't buy a Mito or similar at 1000 euros!) ...
I've seen:
- Zeiss Plan 1x/0,04 — 160 and
- Olympus 1x SPlan FL (0.04 -160)
- Nikon Plan 1x/0,04 (already very expensive...)

Have your any experience about their characteristics, qualities, and uses

Thanks for your help

Alexander
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#2 Post by Alexander » Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:05 pm

You need not only the objektive but a special condenser as well. The standard condensers do not give homogeneous illumination to a 1x objective.
On magnifications as low as that you are better of with a camera setup without microscope.

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#3 Post by Milou » Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:20 pm

Thank you Alexander,

Yes I'm aware about light problems at very low magnifications, as normal condenser isn't adapted.....
But it's to use sometimes in my microscope setup when item is a bit too large for a 2.5x objective!


I'm also trying another setup without microscope, but with Raynox lens(es) in front of a macro 60 mm objective (on my M4/3 GX80)
As it is to make slides picture (with insects genitalia) I also need to light from the bottom (perhaps with special LED system for 35mm films or slides)

apochronaut
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#4 Post by apochronaut » Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:05 pm

You would need an objective configured for a 170mm tube length. Objectives of very long focal lengths ; a 1X in a 170mm system would have a 170mm f.l., are affected more by a tube length alterations than short focal length objectives.
The ones most commonly seen for sale on internet sites are mostly infinity corrected, although there are some for 160mm as well.

An additional issue could be working distance. The Leitz might not be able to focus it. Using as a macro objective would solve that.
I have an older Nikon 2X and it focuses at 52mm.

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#5 Post by Milou » Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:45 pm

Yes I need a finite objective and my other ones are in 160 (not in 170!)

About WD, I've already modified my Leitz microscope stage height as already with the Zeiss 2.5x 160 objective, it was not possible to focus exactly :-)
My 2.5x objective has more or less the same WD as yours

I think these plan 1x objectives should have a very low WD, about 2 or 3 mm only, therefore not easy to also put light from upside!

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#6 Post by zzffnn » Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:29 pm

Depending on optical design, some 1x compound objectives have WD of around 30mm (instead of 3mm). You may have to lower your stage on compound scope to use it.

You may want to pay attention to the objective’s body length and parfocal distance (working distance), some specifications may make them hard to use on compound stage.

Nikon made a short plan 1.2x NA 0.03 (labeled as “1.2 plan 0.03”) with iris that is decent. I bought one for around $100 USD a few years ago. The “plan” area is not as big as modern objectives, but good enough for visual and probably good enough for micro 3/4 sensor too. It is for 160 mm tube length though.

Most finite 1x biological objectives on eBay may cost around $300 USD. They are not common. Leitz made one or two, but I don’t remember specifics.

If you are not critical about image quality, there are “made in China” 160mm tube non-plan 1x objective that costs about $30 USD new. Working distance is about 35mm, if I remember correctly.

I have tried their infinity 1x version on my AO 10 infinity scope; image quality is acceptable for my casual use (not as good as AO plan 2.5x and not plan at edges). Seller told me WD of 160mm version is about the same; I did not purchase their 160mm version because I found my Nikon plan 1.2x.

For condenser, you can simply diffuse a LED headlamp or prism with wax or even printing paper. Some condensers with removable top lens removed can cover 1x field.

Chas
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#7 Post by Chas » Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:20 pm

You mentioned that your set up has tubes.... have you tried shortening the tube-length on your 2.5x plan?

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#8 Post by Milou » Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:03 am

@ zzffnn
Thank you for information about Nikon 1.2x objective

I didn't see any "chinese" 1x plan objective (finite 160) on ebay, the lowest magnification was 4x! But i'll check that....

Yes for lighting I'll try with LEDs and perhaps also remove condenser

@Chas

No I didn't try to reduce tubes length as I tried to get a total length about 160 mm between objective and camera body ...
But I will also try that, just to see if pictures quality obtained like this is still good!

apochronaut
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#9 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:08 pm

Actually a condenser is not needed for such low N.A. objectives. The Chinese 1X are .03.

Alexander
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#10 Post by Alexander » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:35 pm

Milou wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:03 am

I didn't see any "chinese" 1x plan objective (finite 160) on ebay, the lowest magnification was 4x! But i'll check that....
To give you just one example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182205396013?h ... BMtuv10Ktg

Offered as infinity or 160 mm finite.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#11 Post by Milou » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:40 pm

Thank you Alexander, but these objectives are all infinite, not finite (160) and not plan, as I'm looking for!

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#12 Post by Alexander » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:55 pm

Just look into the drop-down options. They offer it in both infinite and finite 160 mm. "AM1X" is the finite version.

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#13 Post by Milou » Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:01 pm

OK, thank's I didn't go to the bottom of drop-down options......
But these objectives are achromatic and not plan, if I'm not mistaken!

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#14 Post by Alexander » Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:01 pm

Milou wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:01 pm

But these objectives are achromatic and not plan, if I'm not mistaken!
Looks like this.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#15 Post by zzffnn » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:06 pm

It depends on your budget. Cheap plan 1x biological objectives are not easy to find; I haven’t seen any cheaper than $100 USD. You may also buy from a seller that allows return to try if that non-plan Chinese 1x would work for you.

My Nikon 1.2 plan objective has quite many glass elements inside and feels heavy.

My Chinese infinity 1x non-plan seems to have a simple design. Curvature is not too bad to my eyes. But I am not being too critical. It costs only $30!

Alexander
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#16 Post by Alexander » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:17 pm

zzffnn wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:06 pm

My Chinese infinity 1x non-plan seems to have a simple design. Curvature is not too bad to my eyes. But I am not being too critical. It costs only $30!
This type of photography is mostly stacking. Who cares about plan correction while stacking?

I would give the cheap Chinese a try. Very little to loose.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#17 Post by MicroBob » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:41 pm

I have a Zeiss West Plan 1. It is a lot longer that 45mm, not parfocla at all. Sharpness and planarity are fine. I also have a set of Zeiss low power condensers, simple lenses with stops. My aplication would be to take overview pictures of big stained plant sections. Unfortunately the color rendition of low power objectives is worse than that of e.g. a 10:1. For good overview images a stitch of photos from the 10:1 gives a lot better quality even though the resolution of the 1:1 is more than good enough. I don't know the reason for this behaviour, I guess that it hast to do with the angle of the light through the section.

So all together I would say it depends on the application. The 1:1 makes it possible to keep using the microscope setup, but it is not ideal for transmitted light photos of stained sections.

The Leitz 1:1,6 is parfocal but has the same limitations when it comes to the colours....

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#18 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:49 am

[ posted in haste … comment retracted ]
Too many 'projects'

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#19 Post by Milou » Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:01 am

Thank's MicroBob for your answer
But for me, as it would be to get genitalia pictures, colours are not important!
But that's interesting to be aware about this characteristic of 1x objective....

Chas
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#20 Post by Chas » Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:19 pm

Milou, I would be very interested to hear how you get on with it! :-)
(I bought a $30 one, 3 or 4 years ago, but it behaved very strangely- it sort of needed a 180mm tube length to work at all and then didnt produce a great image).
EDIT: NOT CORRECT .... It operates correctly at 160mm tube length .. my draw tube was marked out for an additional item ( a vertical illuminator, which was removed) .
Having said that it's field of view does alter a great deal with small alterations of tube length.
Last edited by Chas on Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#21 Post by Milou » Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:18 am

Hello chas,
up to now I still not have 1x plan objective...

But somebody will burrow one to me in order to try it on my setup....
I'll therefore give information later about it...

What kind of 1x plan objective have you, chas?

apochronaut
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#22 Post by apochronaut » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:36 am

I am curious why you would not just use a stereo microscope equipped with both a 1X main objective and a transmitted illumination base? You would get what you are looking for it seems unless I am missing something. The field would be flat , 10X magnification and quite contrasty. A photo option would not be that difficult to obtain either.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#23 Post by Chas » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:17 pm

apochronaut, I guess it is convenience and perhaps the hope of a getting a better image than one might get out of a stereo microscope.
And.. I tend to drop things when I move them :-) :-)

Milou, I am pretty sure that the objective was not a Plan. There are some other ideas for 1x (a bit complicated!) here:
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 25&t=40640

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#24 Post by Milou » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:54 am

Thank you Chas for the link

Yes indeed, very interesting things, some very uncommon, as the use of a pair of infinite microscope objectives put together, back against back to get a 1:1 ratio!
It's very interesting and also gives a lot of information about general optic, not always easy to understand :-)

I'll also try with macro objective (60mm Olympus Zuiko) for M4/3 camera and a Raynox lens.....
The examples with this last lens, put not just in front of the maco objective but with a ring seems to give nice pictures
Just necessary to adjust parameters for another macro lens and M4/3.........

@apochronaut
As said by Chas, good pictures cannot be got out of a stereo microscope, even if for observation it is better than with compound microscope!.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#25 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:26 pm

Milou wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:54 am
Thank you Chas for the link

Yes indeed, very interesting things, some very uncommon, as the use of a pair of infinite microscope objectives put together, back against back to get a 1:1 ratio!
It's very interesting and also gives a lot of information about general optic, not always easy to understand :-)

I'll also try with macro objective (60mm Olympus Zuiko) for M4/3 camera and a Raynox lens.....
The examples with this last lens, put not just in front of the maco objective but with a ring seems to give nice pictures
Just necessary to adjust parameters for another macro lens and M4/3.........

@apochronaut
As said by Chas, good pictures cannot be got out of a stereo microscope, even if for observation it is better than with compound microscope!.
How do you know that, if you are unsure about the use of a 1X objective? A 1X objective for 30.00 will be a 30.00 1X objective. Think about it. Good 1X objectives are well over $1,000.00 because they are plan and well colour corrected. A 1X objective on something like a Cycloptic is plan and apochromatic. Think about that. Wide field, plan and apochromatic.
The quality of picture out of any given system is determined largely by the quality of lighting , and the skill of the operator.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#26 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:46 pm

Milou wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:54 am
@apochronaut
As said by Chas, good pictures cannot be got out of a stereo microscope, even if for observation it is better than with compound microscope!.
There are some technical limitations but a high quality stereo can take good pictures. If you want to do high res focus stacking work at 1x you should buy a high quality scanner lens and give it its own stand--I converted a cheap SPI base to host a nikon scanner lens and it works great. 1x parfocal objectives are in the same convenience zone as stereo microscopes--they have to make optical compromises and won't shoot the way a more dedicated lens will.

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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#27 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:55 pm

I can get p nice shots through the tube of my sz7. Still working on the photo adapter which does not produce good shots, ironically.

Macroscopes are v handy for photography
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#28 Post by Milou » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:26 pm

@scarodactyl
Thank's for your comment about scanner lens
Do you mean this kinf of objective ?
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/284720590689?ha ... Sw0T9iO1ur

I've also seen your interesting comments on photomacrography.net forum about the use of a pair of 4x infinite microscope objectives, put back -back to get a 1:1 ratio!
I'll also try the use of a Raynox lens on a macro 60 mm objective (but with a M4/3!), as you also comment in the same forum but with a 100mm macro lens.....

@BramHuntingNematodes
macroscope , sure they are very well for that, but at very high price and not easy to found!

Scarodactyl
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#29 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:33 pm

I post a lot on photomacrography but I think you have me confused with another poster there.
The linked lens is the highest end Nikon scanning lens available. I am using the smaller 7 element which gives flawless results on aps-c and was fairly easy to incorporate into a compound microscope (once I removed the head and nosepiece and added an LED panel below the stage for even illumination).

Milou
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Re: experience with a plan 1x compound microscope objective ?

#30 Post by Milou » Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:25 pm

I don't know if I confused with an other person of this forum, I was speaking about your comments on using two 4x plan infinite objectives, in this file:
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 25&t=40640

Interesting and its optical construction is in fact rather similar to the scanner lens one!

a Nikon sacnner lens like this :
Nikon Coolscan Scanneur Lens for LS-40 LS-4000, with 7 elements
would be therefore less expensive

Could be an interesting setup with a microscope base as you specified it.

But before, I'll also try a Raynox lens on a macro 60 mm objective (on a M4/3), as I've already this equipment! I've just to find some adapters in order not to put Raynox just on the macro lens, but with a ring beside them....

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