Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

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tardibear
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Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#1 Post by tardibear » Thu May 25, 2023 4:29 am

Hi, I'm looking at buying a microscope, having never owned one before. I'm located in Australia. Finding a used one that's actually a good value is near impossible. The used ones are asking more than $1000 for a basic microscope in a rather poor condition. So I am ruling out buying used.

I definitely want to take photos and videos with it, and connect it to a monitor for a "live view" - but for the initial purchase I'll just buy a trino head first, and then buy the camera later - I just need to be mindful that whichever I choose can accept some form of camera and it'd be easy to find the necessary adapter.

I know that the general advice is to buy something cheap first, then upgrade later. However, the way I see it, if I buy a cheap e.g. a SW380T or Stellar 1T, (around A$800 here), that is A$800 that could've gone towards a better microscope. I want to play with normal brightfield of course, but also with phase contrast and darkfield.

After looking around for weeks, I am narrowing it down to four options (but with variations):

Code: Select all

Amscope T670 Quintuple infinity plan 4x, 10x, 20x, 40x, 100x + 60x + DSLR Mount     $2,000.00
Above + Phase Contrast turret kit (PH objectives 10x, 20x, 40x, 100x)               $3,500.00

Nikon Eclipse Si trino quintuple nosepiece, w/ 4x, 10x, 40x objectives              $3,995.00
Above + 20x, 60x objectives                                                         $4,935.00
Above + Phase objectives (10x, 40x) + 1 slider insert + centering scope             $6,775.00

Motic BA310E Trino (4x, 10x, 40x, 100x)                                             $4,200.00 (guesstimated)
Above + Phase Kit (Turret + 10, 40x, 100x)                                          $6,500.00 (guesstimated)

Zeiss Primostar 3 quintuple phase turret (4x BF, 10BF, 40x PH) + LIM (like nikon)   $5,800.00 
Sold by the official Australian Zeiss company
All the above have trinocular head + full kohler illumination.

The prices are in AU$ which are my estimate including shipping, import duty, and 10% GST. In other words, these are the final amount that I might end up paying.

What I'm wondering about is:
1. Would the image on amscope so much worse than Nikon or Motic, or is it good enough (the 80/20 rule)?
2. Is it worth stretching for Nikon or Motic for a better optic and/or mechanical quality?
3. Out of the two, Nikon vs Motic, which one would be better? The only thing I know is Motic offers a turret condenser which seems so much easier/quicker to use than fumbling around with phase sliders on Nikon.

I see this as a long term investment so the difference in cost now is fine if it meant a better experience for the life of the scope.

Another factor is that Amscope seems to be the easiest to buy / get information on accessories / pricing - everything is on their site. The others, I'd have to go through a slow and tedious process of emailing back and forth.

Amscope will be imported from USA
Nikon has a local retailer (microscopes.com.au)
Motic has a local retailer but I'm also trying to see if I can import from Europe to save $600-$1000. Does anyone know where I can order from Hong Kong directly?
The mark up of goods in Australia is, as usual, extremely high, so importing is something I would definitely consider/prefer.
Last edited by tardibear on Thu May 25, 2023 8:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#2 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Thu May 25, 2023 4:58 am

Yeah you oughta talk to Apochronaut about buying direct if you're contemplating laying down six or seven thou on a microscope. A little more legwork maybe but might be worth your time.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

tardibear
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#3 Post by tardibear » Thu May 25, 2023 5:44 am

I've just realised, that a Motic Panthera Phase Package (https://www.optics-pro.com/phase-contra ... ed/p,73957) is exactly the same as Zeiss Primostar 3 which has one configuration exactly like the Motic package (4x BF, 10x BF, 40x PH). In fact I believe they are the exact same thing, one with Motic badge, the other with Zeiss badge. I can buy the Zeiss Primostar Ph from the official Zeiss company in Australia, for the same amount of money as importing the Motic Panthera CC Phase Package.

But going back to my original question, is it really worth it, or will I be happy long term with the Amscope and to have an extra $3000 in my pocket, not to mention having the full range of objectives, not just 4x, 10, 40x?
BramHuntingNematodes wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 4:58 am
Yeah you oughta talk to Apochronaut about buying direct if you're contemplating laying down six or seven thou on a microscope.
@apochronaut, I'd appreciate your input, thanks!

tardibear
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#4 Post by tardibear » Thu May 25, 2023 6:04 am

My wife says, if we get the Amscope, the extra money can be used to get a stereo microscope, instead of just ending up with a limited functionality on Nikon/Motic/Zeiss.

Hobbyst46
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#5 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu May 25, 2023 7:02 am

About "I know that the general advice is to buy something cheap first, then upgrade later"

I would try to buy a good quality trinocular microscope, whether simple or sophisticated.
Microscopes are precision instruments, it is part of the fun. Low quality scopes only drive one away from the hobby.
Good quality is not necessarily a synonym of "new".

The availability and cost of customer service should be considered as well.

Buying a stereo microscope, in addition to the biological, is a very good idea. Working models are often inexpensive
and can be very useful around the house.

Phill Brown
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#6 Post by Phill Brown » Thu May 25, 2023 8:14 am

I'm not fully sold on phase.
DF is achievable with most condensers, polarised is also not overly challenging for DIY.
Subject preparation is just as critical as the quality of the optics but tacky build quality is frustrating.
Mostly new microscopes have wider field of view rather than better resolution.
20x objective will get more use than 100x oil.

tardibear
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#7 Post by tardibear » Thu May 25, 2023 8:24 am

Phill Brown wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 8:14 am
tacky build quality is frustrating.
This is my main fear about amscope. It's tricky though, it needs someone who has used both amscope vs a "better" scope to be able to say how big (or small) a difference it is and whether it's worth going more expensive.

PeteM
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#8 Post by PeteM » Thu May 25, 2023 4:30 pm

I've seen, but not used, an AmScope 600 series and have used a Motic BA400 series (upgrade to BA300), an AccuScope 400 (similar deal), and an Optika BA800 (similar to the Zeiss PrimoStar phase). The PrimoStar, as you know, is made in the same Chinese factory as the Motic. Those latter scopes (BA400 etc.) are a significant upgrade in the quality of the stand over the AmScope 600. Better focus, better stage, etc. I'd think, but don't know, that an AmScope 700 series would get a bit closer.

If you haven't compared imaging methods, I'd suggest this "Journey to the Microcosmos" episode showing brightfield, darkfield, phase, polarization, fluorescence, DIC, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHagS6PT4Dg

What Phill says above rings true to me. Phase at 20x is useful for pond critters and other unstained live cells. 40x as well. Darkfield provides sharper and higher contrast images if you want photos - but requires careful specimen preparation.

I try to put polarization on every scope that goes to a kid in our Micronaut program because it doesn't cost much in most cases and opens up a world of amazing images for chemical crystals, polarized mineral sections (of which Australia has many), plastic nano-particles, etc. You could check out Robert Berdan (Canadian Nature Photographer) or Charles Krebs (legendary micro photographer) to get an idea of what's possible.

FWIW, around $2200 US could probably buy you a used Olympus BX40, equipped with either halogen or LED, polarization, and phase contrast. The BX40 is a half step above all of those other microscopes in terms of the stand and the optics. If they're UPlan Fl optics (semi-apo fluorite), a full step.

I suggest this model because they have the same reference tube length as the Motic-Zeiss-AccuScope-Optika etc. microscopes you might consider new. You can swap in those other objectives if one is missing or damaged - and the quality of the plan achromats is almost as good as Olympus. The used Olympus plan fluorites are a clear step ahead - and those often can be bought used anywhere from a reliable supplier and shipped to Australia reasonably.

The Olympus (if equipped with an interchangeable turret adapter) also provides a possible upgrade for DIC for another $2k+ or so. Even with shipping and import duty, it could be less expensive than some of the scopes you're considering and a lifetime microscope.

tardibear
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#9 Post by tardibear » Fri May 26, 2023 7:00 am

PeteM wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 4:30 pm
FWIW, around $2200 US could probably buy you a used Olympus BX40, equipped with either halogen or LED, polarization, and phase contrast. The BX40 is a half step above all of those other microscopes in terms of the stand and the optics. If they're UPlan Fl optics (semi-apo fluorite), a full step.
Thanks for your very insightful tips. Where can one look for a used Olympus BX40? My quick search shows they are a lot more than US$2000.

PeteM
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#10 Post by PeteM » Fri May 26, 2023 3:51 pm

tardibear wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 7:00 am
PeteM wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 4:30 pm
FWIW, around $2200 US could probably buy you a used Olympus BX40, equipped with either halogen or LED, polarization, and phase contrast. The BX40 is a half step above all of those other microscopes in terms of the stand and the optics. If they're UPlan Fl optics (semi-apo fluorite), a full step.
Thanks for your very insightful tips. Where can one look for a used Olympus BX40? My quick search shows they are a lot more than US$2000.
$2200 is possible in the US market. I've helped a couple of mentors in our Micronaut program find BX40s. One was around $2000, and the other $2400, and I still have two spares, including one with DIC. Much depends on what objectives and other equipment come with them. In your case, shipping to Australia might rule out a US purchase, but if you can find a stand locally, then objectives could be sourced and shipped widely. There are a few frequent eBay sellers from Australia, and one of them might be able to help you.

Scoper
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#11 Post by Scoper » Fri May 26, 2023 4:26 pm

One big consideration is after sale support.

I recently learned from Amscope that they have NO.. I repeat.. NO after the sale support in terms of parts and repairs.

FWIW…this is the typical “we sell you a “box”” approach that companies use to maximize profit. If there is a problem shortly after the initial sale, if required by law they will do an exchange..and most will require you to pay shipping on the exchange.

Of course in the used market the buyer is at the mercy of the reseller. At Ebay the bad actor sellers required the company’s intervention since buyers quit buying after being burned.

I am currently in the same mode as you in looking for a scope. In my journey I am focusing on what techniques I want and then let that decide which brand/model (new or used) I end up buying. I am finding that phase type and capability is a major factor for viewing pond life.

Good luck with the search..it’s worth the effort.

Hobbyst46
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#12 Post by Hobbyst46 » Fri May 26, 2023 7:48 pm

Scoper wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 4:26 pm
Of course in the used market the buyer is at the mercy of the reseller. At Ebay the bad actor sellers required the company’s intervention since buyers quit buying after being burned.
IMHO, the situation is not that bad, no need for such pessimism. I found that eBay's buyer protection is efficient and powerful. In contrast to the purchase of a used car, when buying a second-hand microscope, you discover the hidden lemon (if there was one) within a day or less, at no cost.

PeteM
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#13 Post by PeteM » Fri May 26, 2023 8:09 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 7:48 pm
IMHO, the situation is not that bad, no need for such pessimism . . .
That's my experience as well.

The one exception has been the rare case of buying from China. Shipping from China to the US is subsidized and incredibly inexpensive. An item that might cost $35 to ship from Singapore, could be more like $2 from China. That's often a plus for buyers abroad, as China is now the main source for things like eyepiece guards, parfocal extenders, low-cost objectives, and the like.

However, shipping back from the US to China (and likely some other countries as well) is very costly. Thus Chinese sellers will often not want to pay return shipping for a defective item. Generally speaking, I won't buy expensive used items in such cases unless the seller has a very good track record.

Phill Brown
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#14 Post by Phill Brown » Fri May 26, 2023 8:39 pm

I've bought most from eBay.
If it says used it has to work as intended.
If it's spares or repair it's probably a project at least.
Often the seller is unaware of issues or damage in transit can be the end of the road.

dtsh
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#15 Post by dtsh » Sat May 27, 2023 8:44 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 7:48 pm
IMHO, the situation is not that bad, no need for such pessimism. I found that eBay's buyer protection is efficient and powerful. In contrast to the purchase of a used car, when buying a second-hand microscope, you discover the hidden lemon (if there was one) within a day or less, at no cost.
Agreed, my eBay experience has been favorable. I have met some sellers who seem to belive a "used" listing includes instruments that are damaged or inoperable, but eBay's policies protect the buyer and the seller pays return shipping, so all the buyer is out is time.

tardibear
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#16 Post by tardibear » Tue May 30, 2023 10:06 am

Thanks for the input. I've decided on a Motic Panthera C2, with 4x, 10x, 20x, 40x, 60x objectives and a nikon full frame camera mount. It may take a month to get to me. I'm looking forward to using it!

What swayed me to the Panthera is the UC objectives.

Phill Brown
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Re: Buying decision: Amscope T670Q, Nikon Eclipse Si, Motic BA310E

#17 Post by Phill Brown » Tue May 30, 2023 10:48 am

Good luck.
Sure you will see anything well enough with that.
I wouldn't be without DF, should be possible to do with DIY but dry DF condenser for Motic is available and likely very good.
You will need to enjoy subject preparation, pollen is good to practice with.
Maybe get some diatom slides from eBay,

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