Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

Everything relating to microscopy hardware: Objectives, eyepieces, lamps and more.
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Adam Long
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#31 Post by Adam Long » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:23 pm

Thanks fr the info! 14 was what I thought.
75RR wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:35 am
Good to see it. Keeping the stickers?
I've already removed several others. The last ones show it was professionally serviced in 2016 so staying for now...

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#32 Post by Adam Long » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:29 am

Update...

Not sourced a grub screw yet, I did exchange a few emails with Zeiss who were useless. The head did fall off once (!!) but appears undamaged and collimation is ok.

Phase is working well although I haven't sourced a phase telescope yet. It was very useful for some estuary mud which appeared dead at 40x but at 400x was full of diatoms. However the non-phase F.40x has better contrast and is a little sharper than the Phase Plan 40x. Likewise the 10x Neofluar is still my favourite, contrast and resolution are excellent and much better than the 10x phase obj. This may be partly because the phase objectives are older - is there a good source for ageing Zeiss objectives? So I'm keeping an eye put for a similar 25x Neofluar. I can see this may lead to an 18 Stand and a 7-hole nosepiece...

I don't see many low-power Zeiss objectives, is there one to look out for? The chinese 4x works fine but is not parfocal- the Zeiss are all pretty close.

Tempted to look for a trinocular head next, although I'm not sure of the details - what do you need to attach the camera (I'd be using a Sony A7 mainly)? Is the projection eyepiece normally included?
Last edited by Adam Long on Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#33 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:31 pm

It seems like having it be removable us a little optimistic gosh with seven slots I already got all my objectives on it!
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#34 Post by 75RR » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:14 pm

Not sourced a grub screw yet...
PM me with an address
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#35 Post by Adam Long » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:51 am

Update on progress of my steadily expanding Zeiss outfit...

First big thanks to 75RR to sorting me out with a grub screw. Head now centred and secure.

Upgraded the eyepieces to KPL. These are all metal, and look and feel much nicer, but if I'm honest I can't see any difference in the view. A little ore eye relief though.

Zeiss 'Phako' phase telescope. Nice piece of kit, although the eye relief is short and FOV narrow, I can align the phase rings precisely and inspect the objective glass. Discovered a chip in my 10x Neofluar, which doesn't affect the view at all, and some dust in my 40x Neofluar which possibly does, or it may just be the higher NA. Either way the out-of-focus areas are much more intrusive than with the F 40x or PH2 Plan 40x.

After having spent a while looking for a trinocular head, I won an ebay auction for another complete Standard 14. It was a bit of a drive to collect but turned out to be worthwhile, as the trinoc head was in pieces and the view showed an obstruction in the right channel. I negotiated a discount and spent yesterday afternoon fettling it. Lots of good points along with the bad - 3 very clean Neofluar objectives, 6.3x, 40x PH2 and 100x PH3, and a fairly modern rotary condenser (plastic cover) in great condition. The main focus on the scope is very smooth but the stage and turret stiff. Both eyepiece tubes were badly dented and the eyepieces were not matched - but one was the S KPL for photography, result! The obstruction in the view turned out to be a dislodged graticule in the other (CPL) eyepiece - which was easily sorted. And last but not least a complete MC35 camera. Removing it showed the eyepiece adapter for the top of the trinoc tube is missing. Disassembly of the M35 produced the tiny projection lens (63mm?)and the rest looks like it will convert to a camera mount ok. So far I've at least managed to get a half-decent image on the camera sensor.

The head had obviously taken a major knock, shearing the bolts holding the bino head to the prism housing. This had also twisted the head/ turret mount with respect to the stand arm. Thankfully the damage seems limited and I've managed to reassemble it fairly securely. The right bino prism is delaminated but I can't see any effect in use so far.

The built-in illumination on the new scope works but is nothing like as bright as my other scope which is converted to run on an external transformer. Looks to have similar alignment issues too. More fettling required...

Questions: any advice on how to precisely align the head mount/ turret with the stand? My second attempt was pretty good but not sure how to improve precision. First I removed the head and condenser, closed the field diaphragm and tried to centre the light dot in the back of the 6.3x. Then I tried to fine tune with the condenser and head but it was hard maintaining alignment while removing the bino head to tighten the bolt.

Anyone got a spare trinoc eyepiece holder? Failing that can anyone measure the height of one? I should be able to make something useable...

Pics to follow...

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#36 Post by Adam Long » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:00 pm

Had a productive time last week getting these bits fixed up and working well. Worked through a bunch of stuff that I couldn't find online so thought it might be useful to others to post some info, first up:

Aligning the head on a Zeiss standard

Take the bino/trino head off and you'll see the part that holds the head and turret is attached by a single bolt. On my scopes this has an allen head, on some it looks to require a two-pronged key. The interface between this part and the stand arm is like a ball-and-socket, and loosening the bolt allows a surprising amount of movement. Be warned that it is very difficult to maintain the existing alignment if you loosen the bolt, so don't touch it unless necessary! My scope had been knocked well out of alignment, so I had no choice...

Image

My approach was to first to align the head with stand geometrically using the stage as a reference, then proceed to align the optics more precisely orthogonal to the slide so that focus was planar across the field.

The first step is to eyeball the stage and stand carefully to check it is only the head that is out of square. Second is to print some sort of target to use as a reference - I just googled some target images and printed one out scaled down with plenty of concentric rings and cross lines. Depending on your stage this can then be easily aligned in one or both axes, backlight from the condenser can help here. Then with the head off, rotate a long objective (40x or 100x) and raise the stage to a mm or so below the lens, and check for centrality. Loosen bolt, correct as best you can, then retighten.

Image

Once happy it is worth replacing the head and setting up kohler with the condenser to mark centre (as in pic above). Now remove the paper and you can proceed to optical alignment. Viewing through the head, scrutinise a slide for even focus across the view and especially at the edges. I found prepared sections were not flat enough to do this well, but the graticule from one of my eyepieces worked perfectly from 63x to 400x. It is worth looking at different mags to see which shows things most clearly - higher mags have less depth of field but the wider view at low mags can also be instructive. I also found phase very useful to pinpoint the exact focus point on the dots of ink along the edges of the graticule lines. Likely you will find one quadrant which is lower than the rest, i.e. needs the stage lifting to come to focus compared to the rest. With the eyepiece view being 180 deg rotated with respect to reality, you can do some thinking to figure out which way the head must move, but the simple version is you want to move the tip of the objective towards the quadrant which appears lower.*

So, remove the head. Replace the target on the stage, centred precisely under the objective. Loosen head bolt and reposition so the objective tip is now off centre 1-2mm in the direction indicated. Tighten bolt, replace head and graticule and scrutinise focus again. Obviously this is an iterative process and this can be repeated as many times as you like, but I found after only two iterations focus was so planar I was doubtful I could improve it. So I locked down the head bolt fully.

I then checked my other scope (which was professionally serviced in 2016) and found it was not as well centred, so repeated the process. Again it was fairly painless and quickly arrived at a planarity which was close to perfect. Marks on the head bolt suggested this had been adjusted before - I'd be interested in the procedure service technicians use. Presumably they have a jig for assembly. But no doubt there is a similar optical check.

*this should be true assuming all objectives are planar or have normal (positive) field curvature, I think.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#37 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:00 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:00 pm
Aligning the head on a Zeiss standard

Take the bino/trino head off and you'll see the part that holds the head and turret is attached by a single bolt. On my scopes this has an allen head, on some it looks to require a two-pronged key. The interface between this part and the stand arm is like a ball-and-socket, and loosening the bolt allows a surprising amount of movement. Be warned that it is very difficult to maintain the existing alignment if you loosen the bolt, so don't touch it unless necessary! My scope had been knocked well out of alignment, so I had no choice...
Impressive job, bravo !
The head bolt that has two holes, and needs a two-pronged key, is very difficult to remove. I am trying to revive a second GFL microscope, so bought a 2-pronged pliers, but hope to avoid head alignment...

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#38 Post by 75RR » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:40 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:00 pm
The head bolt that has two holes, and needs a two-pronged key, is very difficult to remove. I am trying to revive a second GFL microscope, so bought a 2-pronged pliers, but hope to avoid head alignment...
There seems to be some variation in how it is attached. On mine, a Standard WL and also on a Standard 18 frame I still own, both have two locating pins which precludes home alignment.
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#39 Post by EYE C U » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:02 pm

50MM BUBBLE LEVEL OFF EBAY WORKS GREAT FOR RESETING HEAD LEVEL..FIRST LEVEL THE SCOPE/STAGE THEN MATCH THE HEAD. LOOSEN THE BOLT JUST ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN TAP THE HEAD INTO PLACE THEN TIGHTEN AND CHECK

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#40 Post by 75RR » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:12 am

.
Why the capital letters?
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#41 Post by Adam Long » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:05 pm

EYE C U wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:02 pm
50MM BUBBLE LEVEL OFF EBAY WORKS GREAT FOR RESETING HEAD LEVEL..FIRST LEVEL THE SCOPE/STAGE THEN MATCH THE HEAD. LOOSEN THE BOLT JUST ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN TAP THE HEAD INTO PLACE THEN TIGHTEN AND CHECK
That's a good idea, although I think I would need to level my table first! But I think you'd still need to do the optical stage to get really good results.

Shame about the stands with the pin bolt. Must be possible to source or make a tool? The allen bolt looked fairly standard (excuse the pun) so an option might be to cut a slot for removal with a screwdriver style approach and replace with an allen headed countersunk bolt. Keep the washer though, it looked to be a special part.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#42 Post by 75RR » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:05 pm
Shame about the stands with the pin bolt. Must be possible to source or make a tool? The allen bolt looked fairly standard (excuse the pun) so an option might be to cut a slot for removal with a screwdriver style approach and replace with an allen headed countersunk bolt. Keep the washer though, it looked to be a special part.
Perhaps I should have added that the pins also preclude dis-alignment :)

I was just pointing out that Zeiss seemed to have used a variety of attachments - perhaps linked to manufacture dates?
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#43 Post by Adam Long » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:23 pm

Ah ok, so they're locked into the correct alignment by the pins either side? I did wonder if something like that might be hiding in the interface of mine. I suppose the downside is a knock is more likely to break something.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#44 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:45 pm

75RR wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:40 pm
There seems to be some variation in how it is attached. On mine, a Standard WL and also on a Standard 18 frame I still own, both have two locating pins which precludes home alignment.
Thanks, yes, on mine as well... 8-)

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#45 Post by Adam Long » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:12 pm

Update... and a few questions.

Bought myself an Optovar for my birthday - arrived yesterday. Great piece of kit! And the Bertrand lens is much better to use then the phase telescope.

I have also accumulated quite a number of objectives so bought another stand with 5-hole turret and full-illumination path (i.e. not built-in). It has the bulb holder that pushes into the tube at the back, but no bulb included. I've had usable results shining an LED headlamp into the back but either need to buy the correct lamp or make an LED conversion. Can someone tell me what the correct lamp is?

Or, it looks like a proper external illuminator would need a different tube too, is it worth the effort?

Also, the new 5-hole turret moved very freely, and the little sprung bar that detents the rotation broke as soon as I touched it. I have borrowed one from another stand but ideally would like to source another.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#46 Post by 75RR » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:30 pm

.

Nice birthday present. Agree, the Bertrand lens on an Optovar is amazing!

Photo of the damaged nosepiece would be interesting to see.

The basic illumination (external power supply) is 6v 15w. It can be upgraded to 12v 60w without difficulty.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m31nnua9czlfl ... r.pdf?dl=0

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#47 Post by Adam Long » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:08 pm

Thank you 75!

Yes, I had seen the wattage spec for the bulb but not sure what the size of fitting to look for? Are there any suppliers online you know of? Does 60W not get very hot?

Thanks for those instructions, I only had the Universal ones - looks like the collector and connector tubes are the same for both scopes. My collector tube has a diffuser - is this normal? I see the one in the illuminator can be moved so you can focus on the filament?

I will photograph the head detent mechanism. It was interesting to replace, I had not noticed how it works before.

Another question - the binocular part of my trinoc head does not hold it's separation - the two halves sag together over a few minutes. I have taken it apart a couple of times but couldn't find a way to tighten the mechanism. For now a lump of blu-tak has to suffice. Any ideas?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#48 Post by 75RR » Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:23 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:08 pm

Yes, I had seen the wattage spec for the bulb but not sure what the size of fitting to look for? Are there any suppliers online you know of? Does 60W not get very hot?
As the lamp is at the back the heat is not a problem. It disperses before it enters the microscope proper.

https://www.medlamps.co.uk/zeiss-type-3 ... -lamp.html
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Image is of my 60w lamp
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#49 Post by 75RR » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:26 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:08 pm
Another question - the binocular part of my trinoc head does not hold it's separation - the two halves sag together over a few minutes. I have taken it apart a couple of times but couldn't find a way to tighten the mechanism. For now a lump of blu-tak has to suffice. Any ideas?
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#50 Post by Adam Long » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:35 am

Ah brilliant, thank you! Months of fiddling with this head and now it is fixed in two minutes, no creep at all! :D

Here is the broken part from the turret (apologies for poor photos):

Image

It is just a small strip of springy steel, secured at the left end by two bolts.
The slot at the right end acts to locate this ball as the turret is rotated:

Image


Image

The strip seems to be the same item for both 4 and 5-hole turrets - the photo is from the 5-hole, on the 4-hole it is located to the left of the baffle.

Note that the bolt-holes in the strip are elongated, so there is some adjustment to centre the objective with the head. I was not aware of this when I did my head alignment detailed higher in the thread, so something else to check. The bertrand lens makes checking the alignment with the field diaphragm a lot easier, whereas I did it by checking planarity of focus. Be great to have a service manual.

Thanks for the info on lamps. The linked bulb does not look like it would fit in my lampholder (no illuminator, push fit in collector tube in scope base). I think I need one similar to this: https://www.lampco.co.uk/products/baile ... ugQAvD_BwE

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#51 Post by Adam Long » Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:08 pm

After some searching it seems the lamp size is BA15d.

Search for 6v 15w BA15d and there are a few sources.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#52 Post by Adam Long » Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:10 am

Was browsing ebay looking for a separate light source and a bit curious about trying epi-illumination (my degree was in geology). You all know how this goes...

Took a punt on an auction and £150 later I now own two Illuminator 100s, transformer plus epi-condenser and a full set of Epiplan-HDs... and a late-version Universal! Plus a box full of obsolete photography kit. 4x5 polaroids anyone?

Put it together last night and all seems to be working well - with both H-PL and Darkfield inserts. The guy got it from his work 20 years ago where it had been used for photographing PCBs but never used it. Despite this the focus is still smooth, only a few stiff bayonet screws. The epi nose-piece only takes one objective at a time and I don't think the trans-illumination had been used very much. There doesn't seem to be much delamination, just one lens in the top of the epi-head. Couldn't see it in use or with the Bertrand though. There were some filthy surfaces visible which I guess will be in the epi-condenser?

There are some other bits I'm confused about - will post pictures. I think all I need is a nosepiece for trans (these are 5 or 7 hole right?) and maybe a swing-out magnifier for the condenser holder.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#53 Post by Adam Long » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:31 am

Lots of fun fiddling last night.

Does anyone have a good guide to setting up kohler for epi with Zeiss?

Seems like my Illuminators are either not the 100 or a newer version that is not like the instructions I have. The little halogen bulb can be easily changed by a side door, but I haven't figured out how to remove the diffuser for kohler setup. There is a knob at the front which seems to focus the lens, and screws on the back which presumably centre the mirror.

Image

I've also been playing with crossed polarizers in trans-illumination, with a CD cover as a wave plate to make some funky colours. I never could find a polarizer to fit in the head of my Standards.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#54 Post by Adam Long » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:44 am

Got the diffusers out of the illuminators by unscrewing the bayonets, then the next level of screws. However I couldn't get the filament in sharp focus on the back focal plane, not sure why. On reassembly discovered there is a quicker way - a hard-to-access allen grub-screw bottom left allows the lens assembly to slide out. These take 30W halogens.

Also got the slide-in tungsten bulb wired up and working for the Standard 15. Seems to be no simple way to remove the diffuser but the lighting seems fine. Only 15W so a little weak in DF with the trino slider out. After a lot of trial and error I got the rotating turret stop perfectly realigned, and very happy with the Standard setup now, with the Optovar and a new 2.5x there are very small steps from 2.5x all the way to 80x or 1260x with the 63x. Single shot of Mayfly larva at 2.5x with 1.25x on the Optovar:
AL_DF-5441s.jpg
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Scopes (and messy desk):
IMG_4478.jpg
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Not sure what I'll do with the Universal - the Epi head only takes one objective at a time, so is a faff currently. Also get a strong pink cast in normal epi which can is progressively removed with polarizer and analyzer but uses a lot of light. The DF is good though. Need to source a normal nosepiece for convenient work with trans. It's also big of course - while it was smaller than I expected and doesn't need much room to store but it takes up a lot of desk with few advantages over the Standard as presently configured. The camera adapter on the head is a C-mount for video - I gave it a quick test and it was promising so have ordered an adapter. The lens seemed a lot better than in the MC63a.

8yo son's stereo also included - it works but I'd like something better!

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#55 Post by 75RR » Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:33 am

.
Looking good!

A question on your photo tube adaptation.

I was thinking of doing something similar, what did you use to connect base of the 47 60 12 phototube to your camera?
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#56 Post by Charles » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:15 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:44 am

Not sure what I'll do with the Universal - the Epi head only takes one objective at a time, so is a faff currently. Also get a strong pink cast in normal epi which can is progressively removed with polarizer and analyzer but uses a lot of light. The DF is good though. Need to source a normal nosepiece for convenient work with trans.
This is the Zeiss turret you need for your Universal: https://www.ebay.com/itm/284335054439?h ... SwXdZgyaB~

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#57 Post by Adam Long » Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:25 pm

Thanks for the ebay link Charles, I had found a couple of others but they were twice the price. Hopefully the seller will agree to ship to the UK.
A question on your photo tube adaptation.

I was thinking of doing something similar, what did you use to connect base of the 47 60 12 phototube to your camera?
Ah, thanks for the reminder I had meant to write this up. It is a modified MC63a camera. I have ended up with two and they are worthless for anything else.
The camera as it comes:
AL-0451.jpg
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I took it part completely to test with the internal 63mm lens, removing the shutter and meter completely (as I didn't have a control box):
AL-0452.jpg
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The 63mm internal lens was disappointing, so I just use the bottom cone shaped bit with the black ring from the front of the camera to provide a stable platform for afocal with my A7. These are just taped together and the Sony-Zeiss 35mm lens rests on top with a small step-up ring. I might glue a ring on to mate securely but having a little wiggle room helps to move reflections out of view. With a 35mm lens full-frame the full circular view neatly fills the frame; in APS-C mode the 2:3 still frame or 16:9 movie frame neatly crops the circle to a rectangle with no corner overlap. The eyepiece is the S-KPL with a 20mm fov so a little wider than the 18mms.
AL-0455.jpg
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The Universal (presume it's a II or III with the plastic focus knob?) came with another MC63a plus control box and 4x5 adapter. For the sake of interest I had a brief play but couldn't get it to work, but it will probably end up the same way.

C-mount adapter came today so will test that tonight - first impressions were better than the 63mm, but the projection scale is smaller.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#58 Post by 75RR » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:18 pm

.

Thanks for the info.

I think I will also try a provisional setup to confirm suitability before looking for a more solid connection between the base of the 47 60 12 and the camera.
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#59 Post by Adam Long » Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:51 am

I've done some initial tests on the C-mount tube. Sadly. like the M63a tube it doesn't deliver high quality images and is out-resolved by the sensor. It does project quite a wide view, a fair bit bigger than the S-KPL eyepiece, though the edges are not nice on APS-C. Shame as with the Nex to C-mount adapter it makes a solid, compact setup. I guess it may still be useful for video - might be a nice solution for 1080p with a M4/3 body.

Disappointed and a little surprised by the poor quality of the optics in these Zeiss camera adapters. I appreciate they were designing for much lower sensors/ film but still, they could have done much better. And of course there are 35m films which deliver very good resolution. Particularly when you consider the cost and capability of the MC63a and controller it seems crazy to have it so limited by the optics.

I'm very impressed with the Universal Epi-illumination Darkfield. It is more like Lieberkühn lighting much of the time, very nice and has a sharp cut off above the plane of focus, which I suspect may be useful for stacking.

A couple of questions: is the pink cast without polarisers in bright Epi normal? Are crossed polarisers required then?

On my polarizer slider for the head there is a second clear disc. Is this a quartz plate? How do I use it?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#60 Post by 75RR » Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:32 pm

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Can't help with the Epi questions as I have not been tempted by reflected illumination - hope someone else can help you out with that.

I've done some initial tests on the C-mount tube. Sadly. like the M63a tube it doesn't deliver high quality images and is out-resolved by the sensor.
Have you followed Charles Krebs recommendations when choosing and setting up your camera?

See the articles in the following link: https://krebsmicro.com/
Zeiss Standard WL (somewhat fashion challenged) & Wild M8
Olympus E-P2 (Micro Four Thirds Camera)

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