Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

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Adam Long
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Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#1 Post by Adam Long » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:03 am

Hi folks, first post.

After reading a lot of information on the forum over the last few weeks, I recently bought a used Zeiss Standard and would like some advice on building a versatile system. It was last serviced in 2016 and the mechanicals are all working smoothly.

I'm mainly looking at pond life and similar natural history subjects.

The scope came with:

Cfl 10x eyepieces

Ultra-darkfield condenser 1.2-1.4. I appreciate this is intended to be used oiled to slide but so far it works well at 100X and 400X with careful height positioning about 10mm below the slide, although it is dim, best in a dark room. Otherwise I've just been using brightfield with no condenser.

Ilumination is built-in to the base, however this has been converted to tun off an external transformer (installed pot no longer works). The halogen bulb sits directly under the diaphragm with a diffuser in between. It works ok but is very yellow at low power.

Objectives:

Olympus 4X (didn't come to focus due to short WD - replaced with 'knurled ring' Amscope 4x I've had a while for photography)
Zeiss Neofluar 10x (engraved numbers)
Zeiss F40X 0.65
Zeiss F100x oil 0.8-1.25

First issue is a problem - one screw is missing from the head bayonet - a grub screw with a ball end. Is it possible to source these?

Next thought is to get an alternative condenser. Is there a standard model to look for or is it worth holding out for a rotatable phase condenser?

Not sure how much I'll use the 100x, inclined to get a 20X/25X as 100X to 400X is quite a jump. Any recommendations? If I get a phase objective, is it best to start with a high or low mag? Budget £100 max.

is it worth upgrading the eyepieces?

Any advice appreciated, many thanks!

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#2 Post by apochronaut » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:10 am

Just a couple of basic things about condensers. I would at this point just get a condenser in there. All condensers do the same job but the higher N.A. ones and more highly corrected ones are necessary for higher N.A. or more highly corrected objectives. A basic abbe 1.25 will be cheap and available and meet your needs until such time as you need one better.
It is true that you don't really need a condenser for objectives under 10X but at 10X a condenser begins to improve the imaging noticeably with achromats.
Dimming a halogen bulb causes deposition of tungsten on the bulb envelope as well as causing a very yellow colour. The bulb will fail prematurely and it's performance will be degraded for the remainder of it's short life. Running the bulb at 80% voltage or higher at all times will improve it's life and yield better imaging. The regulation of intensity should be done through filtering and adjustment of the diaphragms. You may want to get a blue filter anyway. That simple device does improve the colour of the image plus, there is a slight increase in resolution.
Adjusting the condenser is as much a part of microscopy as focusing the image.
There is a bit of an oleophobia in amateur microscopy these days. All you have to do is clean a bit of oil off and especially with a condenser, it is there for all objectives for the entire session and then it takes 1 minute to clean. Immersion condensers are generally o.k. but not ideal without oil but I can't extend that generosity to an oil DF condenser. You will find that if you oil the DF condenser, it's performance will be greatly enhanced.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#3 Post by Charles » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:33 pm

Zeiss bright field condensers are very easy to obtain. They are normally 0.9 and 1.4 NA flip top condensers and are reasonably priced...at least they are in the US. The rotating Zeiss phase condensers are also available and most have BF along with 2-3 phase stops and some even have a DF stop. Which should you get first, I would go with just the BF, since that is what you have in your objectives, but if you can get a phase condenser at a reasonable price, it will help if you are planning to go that route. The grub screw, you may need to get from a Zeiss parts stand, or someone who has a parts stand. If you was in the US, I would gladly send you one, but you seem to be in the UK. I would look for a parts stand on eBay, which may have a condenser with it.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#4 Post by Adam Long » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:55 pm

Thanks both, that's really useful. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any basic Zeiss condensers on ebay at the mo.
apochronaut wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:10 am
Immersion condensers are generally o.k. but not ideal without oil but I can't extend that generosity to an oil DF condenser. You will find that if you oil the DF condenser, it's performance will be greatly enhanced.
I did try it oiled initially (well I used a drop of the fluid for my drum scanner which serves the same purpose although less viscous) but without much success. The Zeiss optical system pdf has my condenser as suited for objectives of N.A. 0.75-1.0 - does this mean it will only work well with my 100x?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#5 Post by 75RR » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:10 pm

If you post some photos of the microscope, that would give us a better idea of where it is at - particularly of the lighting and the where the missing screw goes. A photo of the underneath would also be useful.

By the way your Zeiss F100x oil 0.8-1.25 is designed for brightfield and darkfield (when you close the iris down to 1.0 or a little less)
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#6 Post by Adam Long » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:41 am

Had another go with oiling the darkfield condenser last night - big improvement. I think I was just unlucky to choose an unsuitable subject for the first attempt. It really brought some prepared slides to life, and I then spent a very absorbing hour looking at some pond life - a filamentous algae 'jungle' inc spirogyra and various inhabitants. The condenser only illuminates the centre of the 4x field, but just about fills the 10x - very contrasty - and works well at 40x though less contrast. I tried the 100x dry and oiled but it seemed to be mostly empty magnification, perhaps other subjects would be better suited? Still feeling like a 20/25x would be more useful.

A big bonus was the darkfield made my floaters less intrusive. I'm 12 days into a Posterior Vitreous Detachment in my right eye so looking at many things isn't so much fun at the mo, but with the 10x I was almost able to forget about it.

Some pics as requested:
Missing grub screw. The screws are in two halves, not sure why, but the useful half is missing:
Image
Image

Lighting setup. Full base:
Image

Bulb arrangement (held in by thumbscrew on left):
Image

New transformer and power leads:
Image

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#7 Post by Charles » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:29 pm

Looks like a Zeiss Standard 14/15. The built in rheostat probably went bad and they did the external power source. If you have problems finding that grub screw, I can send you one and maybe a condenser. I have spares of both BF and Phase. Shipping would be high though going from US to UK.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#8 Post by 75RR » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:37 pm

Agree that a Phase condenser would be the way to go. You can pick up Phase objectives as and when you find them at the right price.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/art ... denser.pdf

A 25x is a useful magnification, bridges the gap nicely between 10x or 16x and the 40x

If the UK members can't come up with a grub screw, I have a spare I can send you from Spain.

How about a photo of the complete microscope?
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#9 Post by Adam Long » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:05 pm

Ok, thanks, really appreciate the help and offers. Buying a whole stand seems a bit much, if I can't find one in the UK I'll PM you - postage shouldn't be too much just for the screw.

Thanks for the pdf on condensers - I'll keep an eye out for a rotary one with phase. Then I'd just need a phase objective or two, right? And they work ok in other lighting?

I see one condenser has DIC prisms too - from the Zeiss brochure it says:
"Used together with Planachromats 6.3x, 16x, 40x and 100x, a polarizer and an interference-contrast slide 47 44 31 or 47 44 33"

Is there a specific requirement for those objectives? Is the interference-contrast slide obtainable nowadays? Where does it go? Sorry for all the questions!

Will post a full pic soon...

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#10 Post by 75RR » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:10 pm

I see one condenser has DIC prisms too - from the Zeiss brochure it says:
"Used together with Planachromats 6.3x, 16x, 40x and 100x, a polarizer and an interference-contrast slide 47 44 31 or 47 44 33"

Is there a specific requirement for those objectives? Is the interference-contrast slide obtainable nowadays? Where does it go? Sorry for all the questions!
They are around but difficult to find at a reasonable price.

This photo shows the bits needed for the last of the 160 tube DIC systems.

Item on the far left is an Optovar, not strictly needed but nice to have.
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#11 Post by Adam Long » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:20 pm

Thanks, I've just seen the thread from a month ago - looks hard to source all the parts.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#12 Post by 75RR » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:08 pm

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#13 Post by Adam Long » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:52 am

Thanks - already got an eye on that!

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#14 Post by 75RR » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:36 am

Any luck with the auction?

If not you might want to make an offer on this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Set-Phase-Co ... SwCIdfBfmy
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#15 Post by Adam Long » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:40 pm

75RR wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:36 am
Any luck with the auction?
Yes! Thanks, I got it. Not too sure if it was a great deal but I am happy as it had all the things I was looking for in one lot - brightfield condenser, 25X objective, and full phase capability as a bonus. Should be enough to keep me occupied for a while!

Not sure which objectives will be the default set I keep in the scope, is there likely to be much performance difference? My current objectives are a little newer than the phase ones (and of course no phase ring). As I understand it the 10X Neofluar should be a little better corrected than a plan achromat, but not sure about the F40x and F100x?

Still looking for a grub screw, I emailed the people who serviced the scope last but they have not replied.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#16 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:59 pm

The 10X0.30 Neofluar is a very good objective.

Your phase contrast condenser does not have a D (dark field) position. But It will provide nice dark field by combining the 10X (Neofluar as well as other 10X-s), or lower mag objectives, with the Ph3 phase contrast position.

Zeiss Plan objectives do yield sharp image across most of the field of view, much more than non-plan objectives. Plan phase contrast objectives are a good choice.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#17 Post by 75RR » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:56 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:40 pm
75RR wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:36 am
Any luck with the auction?
Yes! Thanks, I got it. Not too sure if it was a great deal but I am happy as it had all the things I was looking for in one lot - brightfield condenser, 25X objective, and full phase capability as a bonus. Should be enough to keep me occupied for a while!
Congratulations. The important thing is to get started, you can pick up better objectives as you go along. Best prices are always found when one is not in a rush.

The next step would be Plan Phase, then Neofluar Phase and finally Planapo Phase!

I am still trying to complete the Neofluar stage.
Adam Long wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:40 pm
Still looking for a grub screw, I emailed the people who serviced the scope last but they have not replied.
Place a wanted ad in the Buy and Sell equipment section stating you are in the UK.

Give it a week, if that does not work send me your address by PM
.
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#18 Post by Adam Long » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:56 am

Thanks, I'll do that. Other option is to buy/ make something that will work. Can you confirm if the screw is M3.5?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#19 Post by 75RR » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:20 am

Adam Long wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:56 am
Thanks, I'll do that. Other option is to buy/ make something that will work. Can you confirm if the screw is M3.5?
That is correct
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#20 Post by Adam Long » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:21 pm

Thank you!

Condenser arrived last night, after a little fettle - clean, lube, straighten flip-top push-rod - all working nicely, iris and optics look ok.

Tried to set up Kohler... got nowhere. Closing the field diaphragm made distort and move sideways. Phase didn't work, unsurprisingly. Had another look at the base, and determined the bulb holder had deformed a little with age and the filament was way off centre, throwing the beam forwards. While I was in there, removed the old transformer and tidied the wiring up. Then made a couple of aluminium shims, filed down until the image of the filament was projected straight through the empty objective socket on the head. Also removed the diffuser to try focusing on the filament.

Base before:

Image

And after:

Image

With that sorted, tried again. View now blindingly bright, even at low voltage! Didn't have success with focusing in the filament, so put the diffuser back in, worked out the correct use of the flip-top and finally managed to focus the diaphragm. All went well and was able to get Kohler well set-up for 10x, 20x, and 40x objectives. Phase worked perfectly at 25x and 40x, very interesting view, a little psychedelic! The magnification jump also steps nicely up across these and the 4x. Also compared the two 40x objectives - the newer F40x is a little sharper but not much in it. The 10x Neofluar is still the sharpest. I can see there will be some swapping of objectives for a while...

View in Phase:

Image

One question - once I had Kohler set up, the centring controls on the condenser had very little effect, so I put them in the middle and used the ones on the mount. That worked fine and the view in phase showed it was at least close to correct (I don't have a centering eyepiece).

Finished with the Ultracondenser (oiled of course) which is much brighter now the lighting is properly aligned. The darkfield is very nice and far superior to that using the phase stops. However, it doesn't cover the 4x so the next job is to make a darkfield stop to go in one of the empty spaces on the phase condenser. Presumably this should a ring of the maximum size that can fit in the empty chamber?

I think this scope is a Standard 14. Can you retrofit a 5-nosepiece or would I be better buying a stand with interchangeable nosepieces?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#21 Post by 75RR » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:43 pm

Glad it arrive quickly and in good shape.

First the Phase telescope is a must, accuracy makes all the difference.

Final adjustments are with the condenser controls.


Easier to purchase a bare stand, you want the Standard 18 or a Standard WL if you want the removable nosepiece.

Do note that they would then require a different illumination setup.


Do you now have the transformer on the outside of the stand?
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#22 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:15 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:21 pm

One question - once I had Kohler set up, the centring controls on the condenser had very little effect, so I put them in the middle and used the ones on the mount. That worked fine and the view in phase showed it was at least close to correct (I don't have a centering eyepiece).

Finished with the Ultracondenser (oiled of course) which is much brighter now the lighting is properly aligned. The darkfield is very nice and far superior to that using the phase stops. However, it doesn't cover the 4x so the next job is to make a darkfield stop to go in one of the empty spaces on the phase condenser. Presumably this should a ring of the maximum size that can fit in the empty chamber?
Great job.
There are no centration controls on the condenser, only on the mount (rack/condenser holder).
First, use these thumb screws on the mount to center the source of light visible when the field aperture is closed (as closed as it goes).
And set-up Kohler.
Then, switch to phase (I prefer Ph2 since I do not have Ph1), and align the phase ring of the objective with that of the condenser. Until a phase telescope arrives, try to remove the eyepiece and peep through the tube, you might notice when the rings are concentric and aligned. This alignment is done with the two knobs on the condenser itself. One is X direction and the other is Y.

When the phase is aligned, Ph3 should give very good darkfield with the 10X and 4X, though the FOV of the 4X is limited to the central portion.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#23 Post by Adam Long » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:39 pm

75RR wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:43 pm
Do you now have the transformer on the outside of the stand?
The previous owner had already converted it to run on a more modern external transformer (see earlier pics). Plenty of room in there for LED conversion, I have an old Petzl headtorch I may look at converting...
75RR wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:43 pm
First the Phase telescope is a must, accuracy makes all the difference.
Okay thanks, will keep an eye out.
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:15 pm
Until a phase telescope arrives, try to remove the eyepiece and peep through the tube, you might notice when the rings are concentric and aligned. This alignment is done with the two knobs on the condenser itself
Ah, ok thanks. Had a brief go at that but mostly blinded. Will try again. Does the photo in phase look reasonably well aligned?
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:15 pm
Ph3 should give very good darkfield with the 10X and 4X, though the FOV of the 4X is limited to the central portion.
It was ok, not very good, but my only experience is with the Ultracondenser so perhaps my expectations were too high?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#24 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:06 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:39 pm
Ah, ok thanks. Had a brief go at that but mostly blinded. Will try again. Does the photo in phase look reasonably well aligned?
It looks somewhat aligned, but as 75RR commented, accuracy is very important to get a good phase image.
Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:15 pm
Ph3 should give very good darkfield with the 10X and 4X, though the FOV of the 4X is limited to the central portion.
It was ok, not very good, but my only experience is with the Ultracondenser so perhaps my expectations were too high?
The Ultracondenser yields spectacular images but only when oiled and only for high NAs. Ph3 is known to give a reasonable image, at least. I have tried in the past to insert black beam stops on the filter holder as well as in an empty port of the turret condenser, but failed. The problem with these beam stop tricks is that they are trial and error - for me it was mostly error. Both the size and the centration matter a lot.
Whereas the Ph3 functions well, as designed by Zeiss.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#25 Post by 75RR » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:21 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:06 pm
Whereas the Ph3 functions well, as designed by Zeiss.
Does need to be centered - another reason to get a Phase Centering Telescope, alternatively you can get an Optovar.

By the way, just about any Phase Centering Telescope will work - no need to pay over the odds for one.
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#26 Post by Adam Long » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:22 am

Thanks both. I see centering telescopes are available cheaply, I will make one my next purchase.

Had another go with Phase last night, following your tips it worked very well, even without the telescope. It was fairly easy to get the rings well aligned by ensuring the upper ring completely 'eclipses' the lower, with no bright areas.

I also gave the PH3 darkfield another go - indeed, it works very well at 10x but not higher mags and the 4x view is very restricted. But nice to be able to easily switch between bright, phase and dark, at least at 10x.

I'm off on holiday to Wales today but I'll have a think about making some bigger darkfield masks. The watch glass idea looks good. Any idea why the empty ports are all different sizes? The phase filters are not quite perpendicular with the ports, presumably so they are perpendicular with the light path. Assume this is an ideal not a show-stopper for darkfield or rheinberg?

Other thought was setting up polarizers... I've a bunch lying around that could go over the light source. Looks like the underside of the head has a thread that could take a small filter? Or do you need an Optovar or some other accessory?

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#27 Post by 75RR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:36 am

Adam Long wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:22 am
Other thought was setting up polarizers... I've a bunch lying around that could go over the light source. Looks like the underside of the head has a thread that could take a small filter? Or do you need an Optovar or some other accessory?
Note that not every Optovar has an analyzer.

You can cut out a circle from some polarized film and place that in the head. Might not be complete extinction but it will be close.

You have yet to post a photo of your complete microscope!
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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#28 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:13 pm

Adam Long wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:22 am
...Looks like the underside of the head has a thread that could take a small filter?...
Yes it can. I bought a pair of SVbony (from eBay) 1.25" glass polarizing filters. They came in a metal sleeve. I placed one inside the bottom of the trinocular head; there is no thread there. It does not interfere with the dovetail head-arm assembly. The other polarizer sits on the window of the light source at the base.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#29 Post by Adam Long » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:15 am

75RR wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:36 am
You have yet to post a photo of your complete microscope!
Here you go, my office was a real mess so waited until I was somewhere tidier!

Image

I will try to work out the thread size for the polarizer and give it a go.

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Re: Zeiss standard expansion/ upgrades

#30 Post by 75RR » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:35 am

Good to see it. Keeping the stickers?

Looks like a Standard 14 or what is called a Standard 14 (fixed 4 place nosepiece and built-in transformer)

There are actually quite a lot of Standard models with varied numbering depending on how exactly they have been configured.

As part of a modular system, many of them are changed over time as well, so deciding what model number they have become can be challenging.

It is easier to simplify them to:

Standard 14 = fixed 4 place nosepiece
Standard 15/16 = fixed 5 place nosepiece
Standard 18 = removable 5 place nosepiece

then there is the Standard WL which also has a removable 5 place nosepiece and is sort of halfway between the numbered standards and the Universal and the Photomicroscope

Here is a link to a booklet (in german) on the Standard models: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5991

You will perhaps notice that some models in the booklet sport a 7 place removable nosepiece - don't get your hopes up, they are rare.
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