Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

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microcosmos
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Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#1 Post by microcosmos » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:57 pm

Today I tested for the first time both the transmitted and reflected polarized light of my scope on a single sample - a polished and uncovered thin section of the Gandom Beryan meteorite found by Timur Kryachko and Khatami Majid during the 2016 Iranian-Russian expedition. Although the section is transparent, the meteorite contains some metals/minerals that are opaque.

Here's a composite image showing a radial pyroxene chondrule in (clockwise from upper left) transmitted plane-polarized light, reflected plane-polarized light, reflected cross-polarized light and transmitted cross-polarized light. Each of the four illumination modes reveals different things. The opaque substances that appear black in transmitted light, for example, reflect brightly and show at least four different colours - white, cream, orange and blue - in plane-polarized reflected light and even more differentiation in cross-polarized reflected.

Image

As I explained in another post, I need to clean and flock the vertical illuminator to improve the image quality but right now it's still passable.

I am still studying the mineralogy of meteorites in order to do a more detailed analysis and would be grateful for any comments from those more experienced in meteorites.

Lomonaut
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#2 Post by Lomonaut » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:10 pm

Incredible!
Wish I could help, thanks for showing.

MichaelG.
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#3 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:42 pm

Superb comparison images … thanks for sharing them.

I will be interested to learn from your experience when you start identifying and measuring the various constituents.

… I’ve never really progressed beyond the “that’s pretty” stage :oops:

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

Greg Howald
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#4 Post by Greg Howald » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:28 pm

You have some very well formed crystallization in your sample. It looks to be made up of several minerals. It looks igneous. I don't think it could be any thing else. Any luck identifying mineral content with the interference color chart? Petrograhics and mineral identification need scrutiny with your thin section. Thin sections cost a great deal of money since they are difficult to produce, so that must be very expensive indeed. My own thin sections are about $500.00 per set. I'm sure you can spend many hours with it. Call me jealous or paint me green with envy. I'd be interested to know what minerals you are able to identify. Very happy for you.
Greg

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#5 Post by microcosmos » Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:48 am

Thanks Lomonaut, Michael and Greg for your comments. I'm glad you found this interesting. I did have a lot of fun over the past couple of months.

First I had to give myself an optical mineralogy crash course, which was difficult but really interesting.

Now I can do most of the basic things like measuring extinction angle, sign of elongation, relief, and using the Michel-Levy chart to obtain the birefringence value and interpreting the conoscopic interference figures.

But many of the common minerals can be identified without too much trouble, as they have certain combinations of colour, pattern and texture and geological context that immediately give their identity away without having to do any intricate optical measurements.

I think there isn't as much focus on geology on this forum as there is on biological samples, so instead of trying to explain the countless torturous details here I refer those interested to my mineralogy website. It contains many pictures of minerals I have identified so far, as well as links to a number of optical mineralogy textbooks and databases that I found very helpful if you wish to do it.

As for the meteorite above, the circular chondrules distinguish it from most terrestrial rocks. It is a chondrite, a type of meteorite that contains material from the solar system when it was still young and a swirling cloud of dust and gas with no planets yet. These meteorites also did not undergo extensive metamorphism subsequent to initial formation, so they give a glimpse into the early solar system. The particular radiating chondrule shown in the picture was formed when molten ore cooled rapidly, producing the radiating fan-like crystals.

The colourful rounded grains are probably olivine, which is common in such meteorites and is colourless in plane-polarized light (upper left) but have high interference colours (blues, yellows, reds, greens etc.) as shown at lower left. Some materials (e.g. metals, oxides) are opaque even at 30-micrometer thickness and look black in both plane and cross-polarized transmitted light. These can be analysed in reflected light, in which they have different reflectances (brightness) and colours, and polarization characteristics analogous to transparent minerals in transmitted light.

Greg - I'm surprised to hear how expensive your thin sections were. Are they very rare specimens or had some special treatment during preparation? Or does your one "set" comprise multiple thin sections that were collated across many different places, so the cost included the geological expertise and travel fees?

Most labs (US, Canada, Europe, Australia for example) charge about $25-$30 for a basic thin section in standard 30-micrometer thickness. If you want it polished (for reflected light for example) or stained etc., it costs only a few dollars more. Then you add shipping and that's it. Most of my rocks were done by one of them. I thought that was reasonable for the equipment and skills needed to make a proper thin section.

Greg Howald
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#6 Post by Greg Howald » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:23 pm

Thin sections I have are sets sold by Wards Science.
I'm also glad to know the forum has at least one other rock hound. I have a lot of basic equipment and specimens but I've been doing all these things as a hobby for only three years so knowledge is still lacking.
I look forward to visiting your website. Have you found a. Mineralogy forum?
Greg

MichaelG.
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#7 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:36 pm

microcosmos wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:48 am
[…]
I think there isn't as much focus on geology on this forum as there is on biological samples, so instead of trying to explain the countless torturous details here I refer those interested to my mineralogy website. It contains many pictures of minerals I have identified so far, as well as links to a number of optical mineralogy textbooks and databases that I found very helpful if you wish to do it.
[…]
.

Thank you for the link … it’s greatly appreciated.

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

Greg Howald
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#8 Post by Greg Howald » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:45 pm

I visited your website. Very well done indeed. Liked the photo of your scope. I have Amscope microscopes. For mineralogy I use a model PZ 200a petrographic and an ME 580 metalurgical and I have a fairly nice digital imager for macro work. I do other things as well. Pond critters are fascinating but I don't study them at the depth of others on this forum and I enjoy plantea.
I have a very small lab, the main table is only 2 ft. X 5 ft. and has six scopes and two digital imagers on it, so I'm crowded and have to be highly organized. Mostly I enjoy Rocks. They are patient and willing to pose in the same position for hours and they don't jump around all over the place and they don't talk back.😅 Greg

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#9 Post by microcosmos » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:05 pm

Glad you guys like the website. I hope it helps people enjoy rocks more and discover the fascinating science, beyond being the first and only website (to my knowledge, at press time) of photomicrographs of rocks from my country!

I think Scarodactyl studies rocks too? He mentioned in another thread that he had a paper in American Mineralogist.

I have not found (or looked for) a mineralogy forum, although there are many mineralogists on social media such as Instagram, and I learn from their posts and occasionally ask questions. I'm still in the stone age (pun intended) of mineralogy so there's something I don't know in almost everything.

Your lab is much more serious than mine. I'm a one-scope person and I try to make it do everything, with some inevitable compromises. My microscope is as much a piece of interior decor as it is a scientific instrument, so sometimes I prioritise architectural design at the expense of functionality. As mentioned elsewhere, I sacrificed DIC for the full-blown petrographic configuration and sometimes miss DIC which is a really ingenious and elegant invention.

I do enjoy pond critters and others but I'm just bogged down right now trying to decipher the rocks.

Javier
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#10 Post by Javier » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:05 am

That is amazing and beautiful!

LouiseScot
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#11 Post by LouiseScot » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:34 pm

I did a geology course back in 2018-19 and looking at thin sections was one of the best parts of the course :) I tried to upload the lab booklet on here but the file is too big :( It may be too basic for you, anyway... Still, there are useful resources for thin sections on the internet.
Love your web site and your Olympus BHSP - it's quite impressive!

Louise

Edit: Did some screen snips
thinsection1.JPG
thinsection1.JPG (167.86 KiB) Viewed 5493 times
thinsection2.JPG
thinsection2.JPG (113.54 KiB) Viewed 5493 times
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

FSpirit
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#12 Post by FSpirit » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:47 pm

very fascinating, thanks for the post!

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#13 Post by microcosmos » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:34 am

No problem!

Louise, thanks for the screen snips - please post more if you wish. They will make this thread more interesting and useful!

Supposedly I know optical mineralogy but still get confused as minerals in actual thin sections take endless forms that are not often illustrated in micrographs that try to show the ideal sample, and I find that different books show and say slightly different things. By reading more books I get a better collective idea of what's going on.

If you or anyone has similar illustrated guides to opaque minerals under reflected light, I would be very interested to have the references/links/screenshots as well. Although there are ore microscopy textbooks available online (my website has a link to Craig & Vaughan for example), I've had difficulty finding atlases of the kind that exist for thin sections in transmitted light, where you can search and browse databases (of optical data) and micrographs to quickly identify an opaque mineral.

I do love my BHSP, although as explained elsewhere I had to make optical compromises to get both transmitted and incident illumination. But it was fun to put together and a joy to use so I'm happy!

Greg Howald
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#14 Post by Greg Howald » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:33 am

!!!!! Go to Microsoft play store. Download Mineral Database for about ten bucks and you will arrive at heaven's gate. Name a rock or mineral and you will find it there in thin section and also macro photography. I promise from the bottom of my bottom that you will love it.😆😆Greg

Greg Howald
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#15 Post by Greg Howald » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:41 am

Get these books.

Rocks and minerals in thin section by McKenzie, Adams and Brodie. Second edition, 2017
AField Guide To Rocks and Minerals by Frederick Pough
1976
and
Manual Of Optical Mineralogy by David Shelly. Sixth printing 1983.
Greg

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#16 Post by microcosmos » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:29 am

Thanks for the recommendations - I'll keep them in mind if I build up my collection of references.

For now, I've found that the books, videos, databases and lecture notes available for free online are more than enough for my needs. No single resource has everything but collectively they do seem to cover everything.

I love books and have my own library at home, but I'm cutting costs at the moment after spending not a small amount on the microscope and thin sections. I know the books and database are inexpensive but I've realised that small costs accumulate!

There's one book I would like to add to the list of recommendations - Optical Mineralogy by Nesse (2004), Oxford. I don't have it but I've seen preview pages and some of the illustrations of interference figures used in lecture notes. It was from those illustrations that I finally understood the underlying mechanisms of interference figures, which enabled me to determine optic sign from first principles without having to memorize the positions of the colours.

LouiseScot
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#17 Post by LouiseScot » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:59 am

Hi

I've put my thin section lab booklet and lab notes on Google Drive for you. The thin sections was only a part of geology course I did. We were told how to go through a process in order to try and identify minerals in a section. This is outlined in the booklet and notes. The best way of learning is probably to do a hands-on course yourself, if you can. There's no substitute for an in-person instructor!

Here is the link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

It's a long time since I used Google Drive so hope that works ok - let me know if it doesn't!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#18 Post by microcosmos » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:45 pm

Thank you very much for the trouble. I have downloaded them successfully! I'll go digest them!

I'm completely swamped with this thin section thing. I don't know how or why I got into this. I seriously need to get my regular meals and bedtime and housework done.

Yes sometimes I wish I had an instructor to turn to for burning questions when I simply couldn't find the answer in a book or website, and just needed an expert who knows immediately what it is to give me a hint and point me in the right direction. But there is no course on this subject in my country - our focus is on biomedical science and finance. We have the geotechnical engineering expertise for constructing buildings but there is little or no petrographic microscopy involved.

Nevertheless it doesn't take away the fun!

LouiseScot
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#19 Post by LouiseScot » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:34 pm

microcosmos wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:45 pm
Thank you very much for the trouble. I have downloaded them successfully! I'll go digest them!

I'm completely swamped with this thin section thing. I don't know how or why I got into this. I seriously need to get my regular meals and bedtime and housework done.

Yes sometimes I wish I had an instructor to turn to for burning questions when I simply couldn't find the answer in a book or website, and just needed an expert who knows immediately what it is to give me a hint and point me in the right direction. But there is no course on this subject in my country - our focus is on biomedical science and finance. We have the geotechnical engineering expertise for constructing buildings but there is little or no petrographic microscopy involved.

Nevertheless it doesn't take away the fun!
Just take your time and do little bits here and there. Unless you're going to look at lots and lots of thin sections then it's probably not worth the effort of serious study. Here are some meteorite thin sections - you might be able to match some parts up with the minerals in the examples I included in my Google Drive files. Maybe also with your own meteorite thin section :)

http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id12.html

Have fun - don't stress!

Louise
A Nikon CF plan 20x; A Swift 380T; A DIY infinity corrected focus rail system with a 40x/0.65 Olympus Plan, a 10x/0.30 Amscope Plan Fluor, and a 20x/0.75 Nikon Plan Apo

Greg Howald
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#20 Post by Greg Howald » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:41 pm

You are swamped and feeling guilty over house work. Well, Einstein didn't tie his shoes, got little sleep and never did anything with his hair.

Edison didn't know anything. He just never gave up.

You may be in good company.

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#21 Post by microcosmos » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:29 pm

LouiseScot wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:34 pm

Just take your time and do little bits here and there. Unless you're going to look at lots and lots of thin sections then it's probably not worth the effort of serious study. Here are some meteorite thin sections - you might be able to match some parts up with the minerals in the examples I included in my Google Drive files. Maybe also with your own meteorite thin section :)

http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id12.html

Have fun - don't stress!

Louise
Thanks. I can't stop - it's too addictive!!

I did come across that website but unfortunately it doesn't help much at the moment because it doesn't describe what is in each photo. I already know my meteorite is an L3 chondrite and what I'm trying to do now is to identify the chondrule types within. There is a link to "chondrules" but when I click it, the address bar shows an external website that doesn't load. There are not very many types of chondrules but there is a lot of variation and overlap. But I'm getting the hang of it after seeing more and more images of identified chondrules online.
Greg Howald wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:41 pm
You are swamped and feeling guilty over house work. Well, Einstein didn't tie his shoes, got little sleep and never did anything with his hair.

Edison didn't know anything. He just never gave up.

You may be in good company.
The difference is that Einstein actually found something new but I'm just re-finding old stuff for now. But nevermind, I'm finding something new for me!

microcosmos
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Re: Meteorite thin section in transmitted and reflected polarized light

#22 Post by microcosmos » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:45 pm

I think I've reached a point where I need a break. There were quite a few interesting things in just one meteorite thin section and they were quite distinct from the terrestrial thin sections, so I decided to move all the meteorite material to its own webpage for those interested in the details and links to some interesting open-access meteorite papers.

Here are some of the images (you can see them in retina resolution on my webpage).

Image
The radial pyroxene chondrule from my first post, this time with the 530 nm retardation plate inserted as I wanted to check if it was length fast or slow

Image
Opaque grain showing what I think are various iron alloys/oxides/sulphides which show different colours in reflected plane-polarized light

Image
Part of a large chondrule in cross-polarized reflected light. There are a few glass and opaque grains which are hard to identify here but can be distinguished when compared with the transmitted and plane-polarized micrographs)

Image
Polysomatic barred olivine (no retardation plate - native interference colours)

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