Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

Here you can post pictures and videos to show others.
Post Reply
Message
Author
sinabro
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:26 pm

Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#1 Post by sinabro » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:32 pm


DonSchaeffer
Posts: 3275
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:06 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#2 Post by DonSchaeffer » Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:54 pm

Sharp bacteria pictures! Interesting.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#3 Post by apochronaut » Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:43 pm

Possibly or even likely, they are phages.

I have seen on many occasions bacteria with attached round bodies but not in the profusion that your video shows. In my cases, given the nature of the organisms, I assumed some form of exospore or other pleomorphic form : a microcyst for instance. In one instance, using very high resolution (1.4 N.A., planapo and an oiled achromat 1.4 condenser), I observed a large group of approx. 16 spheroid bodies, previously unseen, exit a cell in unison without rupturing any wall or membrane and leave the area in varying directions quite rapidly with motility.

The Pleomorphism of bacteria and possibly even virions is a facinating subject and although the resarchers in the field are and have been some of the most brilliant microbiologists of their time, the club of monomorphists is yet pretty large.

sinabro
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#4 Post by sinabro » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:57 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:43 pm
Possibly or even likely, they are phages.

I have seen on many occasions bacteria with attached round bodies but not in the profusion that your video shows. In my cases, given the nature of the organisms, I assumed some form of exospore or other pleomorphic form : a microcyst for instance. In one instance, using very high resolution (1.4 N.A., planapo and an oiled achromat 1.4 condenser), I observed a large group of approx. 16 spheroid bodies, previously unseen, exit a cell in unison without rupturing any wall or membrane and leave the area in varying directions quite rapidly with motility.

The Pleomorphism of bacteria and possibly even virions is a facinating subject and although the resarchers in the field are and have been some of the most brilliant microbiologists of their time, the club of monomorphists is yet pretty large.
That's very interesting information.
Thank you so much apochronaut.
Thanks, Don.

Javier
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#5 Post by Javier » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:46 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:43 pm
Possibly or even likely, they are phages.

I have seen on many occasions bacteria with attached round bodies but not in the profusion that your video shows. In my cases, given the nature of the organisms, I assumed some form of exospore or other pleomorphic form : a microcyst for instance. In one instance, using very high resolution (1.4 N.A., planapo and an oiled achromat 1.4 condenser), I observed a large group of approx. 16 spheroid bodies, previously unseen, exit a cell in unison without rupturing any wall or membrane and leave the area in varying directions quite rapidly with motility.

The Pleomorphism of bacteria and possibly even virions is a facinating subject and although the resarchers in the field are and have been some of the most brilliant microbiologists of their time, the club of monomorphists is yet pretty large.
Are you saying that they are likely Phage Virus? That would be awesome.

A quick search showed me that the measure between 20 and 200 nm. Something doesn't add up here... I might have got something wrong.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#6 Post by apochronaut » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:45 pm

Seems not likely doesn't it. Perhaps likely a bit too farfetched..... Possibly, then. I assume those motile rods to be bacilli , so likely no more than a micron in diameter. That leaves the spheroid bodies about 300 nm?
Probably someday there will be paper written by someone that has discovered 1/2 micron phages

I dunno. Any theory outside of the norm of monomorphism is farfetched under the current accepted rules.
Last edited by apochronaut on Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Javier
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#7 Post by Javier » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:08 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:45 pm
Seems not likely doesn't it. Perhaps likely a bit too farfetched..... Possibly, then. I assume those motile rods to be bacilli , so likely no more than a micron in diameter. That leaves the spheroid bodies about 300 nm?
Probably someday there will be paper written by someone that has discovered 1/2 micron phages

I dunno. Any theory outside of the norm of monomorphism is farfetched under the current acceptrd rules.
So... light microscopy can resolve up to 200 nm, is that right? I wasn't aware of that and I thought that number wasn't doable. So what you are saying is totally plausible.

I would love if someone could confirm Apochronaut guess. I have been very intrigued by Phagos and it would be awesome to see them in action here.

Javier
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#8 Post by Javier » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:18 pm

This is very interesting:

https://journals.asm.org/doi/pdf/10.112 ... 9-149.1971

I was thinking about the concept of being discernible but not resolvable. I remember that being an common issue when observing super tiny features of the moon.


Javier
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#10 Post by Javier » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:49 pm

Very cool. "Whopperphage" made me chuckle...

This might be a very special video, sinabro.

MichaelG.
Posts: 3976
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:24 am
Location: North Wales

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#11 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:42 am

Whilst I freely admit that the detail in that Nature article
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2007-4
is beyond my comprehension, I find the underlying message both interesting and disturbing.

It would appear that this is “Life; but not as we know it”

MichaelG.

.

Whimsical Ref. __ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trekkin%27
Too many 'projects'

PeteM
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#12 Post by PeteM » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:19 am

Maybe around the same scale?

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/study-f ... -bacteria/

Sinabro - thanks for the excellent images and the topic.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#13 Post by apochronaut » Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:20 am

Sinabro's imaging is always first class. I am interested in the nature of the sample? I know you have a favourite pond. This looks like it is maybe not pond water?
Something a little darker ?

sinabro
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#14 Post by sinabro » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:19 am

apochronaut wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:20 am
Sinabro's imaging is always first class. I am interested in the nature of the sample? I know you have a favourite pond. This looks like it is maybe not pond water?
Something a little darker ?


I put moss in a bottle and poured water to find something interesting
I used to find a pretty interesting microorganism in this way ===> https://youtu.be/-4yOPdOkwuE
But it got damaged quickly because of the hot weather and a lot of water
this bacteria is from the bottled water.
Thanks, apochronaut.
Thanks, Pete, Michael and Javier.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#15 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:17 pm

I gather that the sample might have overheated and dehydrated some?
Those flagellated curved rods may have been undergoing extreme environmental pressure as the sample degraded and were beginning to adopt a survival strategy : producing microcysts. Such bodies can exist for a long time as entities, only reverting back to the identifiable morphological form when ideal environmental conditions occur.
It is easy to think that when we discover a micro-organism under the microscope that it is like finding a mouse under a haybale. What is in fact the case is that the discovered micro-organism has a much narrower environmental niche and requires quite specific conditions compared to the mouse. The mouse, while perfectly happy tunneling through old grass and weed debris in a field or under a haybale and feeding on wild seeds, is also capable of entering the environment of your house and stealing cookies. When they figure out how to chew through sheet steel, they will also help themselves to your leftover birthday cake. Their survival strategies are a fur coat, omnivorous diet, elusive activity and highly adaptive behaviour.
Your bacteria are there because one or a few more of their brethren had found a nice place to live and raise kids. When that place begins to implode, they can't run under a door and raise kids in a sock drawer. They change. We all have seen their changed beings in every sample we investigate. Small, sometimes in multiple varied forms, buffeted about and often ingested in great volume. They are in your blood too.
They resist culturing, because they need such specific environmental conditions.
Gerald Domingue spent 30 or more years designing experiment after experiment trying to bring some of these dormant species out of dormancy and get them to revert to their recognized morphological form. In some cases it took two years of culturing and reculturing to get even a common species such as Staph Aureus to revert from a serum inclusion to a colony.

That's another possibility.

SuiGenerisBrewing
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:39 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#16 Post by SuiGenerisBrewing » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:22 pm

Hi, microbiologist here.

Not phages. As others have noted, phages are below the resolution limit of a light microscope. They would appear as a diffraction-limited spot, if at all, in the image. Gemmating (budding) phages are also extraordinarily rare.

In terms of what it could be, there are a few possibilities:
  1. Most likely (IMO) is some sort of small coccoid species of bacterial that lives in contact with the larger bacilli. It may even be some sort of predatory species (e.g. Bdellovibrio sp.), which would be a pretty cool find.
  2. Another possibility is that the cells are producing exospores.
  3. Many bacteria can also form inclusions which sometimes appear like these - magnetite inclusions, sulphur inclusions, etc. These are usually cytoplasmic, but can sometimes be found in the periplasm and will look like this.
  4. Least likely is that these are bacteria that grow by budding. This is a rare form of growth, but does occurs. I don't think that is the case here, as budding usually occurs from a single point, with a notable stalk between the mother and daughter cell.
Bryan

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#17 Post by apochronaut » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm

High N.A. apochromats will take you pretty close to the limit of resolution. Throw in some contrast enhancement, even better. DIC doesn't really show you what is there but a kind of 3-D shadow of it, amplifying stucture in doing so. I have at times resolved bacterial details in a thick matrix with a phase planapochromat and been unable to with an excellent phase planachromat, so resolution enhancement with contrast enhancement, does occur.
A very high end imaging system provides surprising resolution. The poster is known for that and his system ; very very good

In the absence of a yardstick, we are left to guess or deduce the size of various structures in the video. There are several ringers, Numerous bacterial flagella, which are normally pretty small ; about at the average or lower end of the range for phages.
Yes, phages are small but it doesn't take much research to find out that the textbook about them is being rewritten, certainly when it comes to size and there are several links in the thread. Yes, phage is maybe on the outside somewhat in the realm of possibility but I would not say " not phages", especially in light of the imaging of those flagella. They are undeniably flagella but had they been little straight sticks, there might be confusion about what they were, due to
Predatory cocci. Possibly.
Inclusions. Sulphur inclusions I see in anaerobic Beggiatoa and Thioploca all the time. They are particulary evident in DF. These are not likely inclusions.
I do think that given the possible degradation of the sample that there might be some serious changes taking place for that colony, so plan B might be happening. Abandon ship and get in the lifeboats, so to speak. Spores, maybe but I am not accustomed to seeing spores randomly distributed and on the surface. I have seen similar lumps on Borrelia Burgdorferii ; some form of microcyst more likely.

User avatar
Wes
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:58 pm

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#18 Post by Wes » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:41 pm

Intriguing finding and very well documented at that. I am more inclined to think these are predatory/parasitic bacteria. Maybe Vampirococcus?
Zeiss Photomicroscope III BF/DF/Pol/Ph/DIC/FL/Jamin-Lebedeff
Youtube channel

SuiGenerisBrewing
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:39 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#19 Post by SuiGenerisBrewing » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:53 am

apochronaut wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm
High N.A. apochromats will take you pretty close to the limit of resolution. Throw in some contrast enhancement, even better. DIC doesn't really show you what is there but a kind of 3-D shadow of it, amplifying stucture in doing so. I have at times resolved bacterial details in a thick matrix with a phase planapochromat and been unable to with an excellent phase planachromat, so resolution enhancement with contrast enhancement, does occur.
This is simply incorrect. The *best* resolution you can achieve is dictated by the NA of your objective lens and the wavelength you are imaging at. While not as bad as phase contrast, DIC still reduces the resolution of the microscope compared to a widefield setup by 0.15 to 0.6 wavelengths (depending on setup and shear angle). In other words, a system with a widefield resolution of 250 nm would have a DIC resolution of 290-400 nm, depending on your DIC configuration and shear angle. At the end of the day the largest known phages are sub-200 nm in diameter, meaning they'd be resolvable on a very high-end system (e.g. NA over 1.40)...as a PSF.

Good contrast and good skills don't overcome physics.
apochronaut wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm
In the absence of a yardstick, we are left to guess or deduce the size of various structures in the video. There are several ringers, Numerous bacterial flagella, which are normally pretty small ; about at the average or lower end of the range for phages.
A small flagella is 5 um in length, long ones can be upto 50 um. An extremely large phage is ~0.2 um along its long axis, and most are much smaller. Hardly the same range.
apochronaut wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm
Yes, phages are small but it doesn't take much research to find out that the textbook about them is being rewritten, certainly when it comes to size and there are several links in the thread.
Yeah, I'm a microbiology prof, and I've written some of those textbooks. And while the textbooks are always being rewritten, we are very, very, very careful to keep them in-line with what is current in the literature. The largest known clade of bacteriophage are the mahaphages, and they all have a capsid that is 120 nm x 180 nm, with genomes upto 750 kbp. And that appears to be the upper limit of what a t-even style phage can achieve, based on the assembly mechanism of their capsid. But even those beasts are well below what a research-grade scope can resolve outside of using super-resolution technology.
apochronaut wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm
Inclusions. Sulphur inclusions I see in anaerobic Beggiatoa and Thioploca all the time. They are particulary evident in DF. These are not likely inclusions.
Not cytosolic ones, but some species form periplasmic inclusions which look similar to these (though-be-it, typically smaller).
apochronaut wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:19 pm
I do think that given the possible degradation of the sample that there might be some serious changes taking place for that colony, so plan B might be happening. Abandon ship and get in the lifeboats, so to speak. Spores, maybe but I am not accustomed to seeing spores randomly distributed and on the surface. I have seen similar lumps on Borrelia Burgdorferii ; some form of microcyst more likely.
Exospores like this can form on filamentous bacteria; you get terminal spores on the terminal cells, and "side-spores" emerging near the septa between the other cells of the filament. Microcysts are also possible; Rhodospirillum centenum will often form multiple cysts that can appear like these along the length of the cell.

apochronaut
Posts: 6272
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#20 Post by apochronaut » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:43 am

I don't think length was the issue with the flagella, it was the diameter.

Could you point me in the direction of textbooks you have written. I would be interested in reading them.

Javier
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 11:19 am
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#21 Post by Javier » Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:28 am

SuiGenerisBrewing wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:22 pm
Hi, microbiologist here.

Not phages. As others have noted, phages are below the resolution limit of a light microscope. They would appear as a diffraction-limited spot, if at all, in the image. Gemmating (budding) phages are also extraordinarily rare.

In terms of what it could be, there are a few possibilities:
  1. Most likely (IMO) is some sort of small coccoid species of bacterial that lives in contact with the larger bacilli. It may even be some sort of predatory species (e.g. Bdellovibrio sp.), which would be a pretty cool find.
  2. Another possibility is that the cells are producing exospores.
  3. Many bacteria can also form inclusions which sometimes appear like these - magnetite inclusions, sulphur inclusions, etc. These are usually cytoplasmic, but can sometimes be found in the periplasm and will look like this.
  4. Least likely is that these are bacteria that grow by budding. This is a rare form of growth, but does occurs. I don't think that is the case here, as budding usually occurs from a single point, with a notable stalk between the mother and daughter cell.
Bryan
Thank you, Bryan! This was very clarifying and interesting.

PeteM
Posts: 2983
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#22 Post by PeteM » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:02 am

+1. Thanks.

sinabro
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: Protrusions on the surface of Bacteria?

#23 Post by sinabro » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:45 am

SuiGenerisBrewing wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:22 pm
Hi, microbiologist here.

Not phages. As others have noted, phages are below the resolution limit of a light microscope. They would appear as a diffraction-limited spot, if at all, in the image. Gemmating (budding) phages are also extraordinarily rare.

In terms of what it could be, there are a few possibilities:
  1. Most likely (IMO) is some sort of small coccoid species of bacterial that lives in contact with the larger bacilli. It may even be some sort of predatory species (e.g. Bdellovibrio sp.), which would be a pretty cool find.
  2. Another possibility is that the cells are producing exospores.
  3. Many bacteria can also form inclusions which sometimes appear like these - magnetite inclusions, sulphur inclusions, etc. These are usually cytoplasmic, but can sometimes be found in the periplasm and will look like this.
  4. Least likely is that these are bacteria that grow by budding. This is a rare form of growth, but does occurs. I don't think that is the case here, as budding usually occurs from a single point, with a notable stalk between the mother and daughter cell.
Bryan
I'll bet on the third case. Thank you so much.

Post Reply