Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

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shutterbug
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Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#1 Post by shutterbug » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:51 pm

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MichaelG.
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#2 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:29 am

Looks like you have a great lens there …. and improving your mounts should only require practice.

Have you tried photographing any unmounted specimens yet ?

If you are thinking of making a lens-hood, I would suggest also making a Lieberkühn reflector having the same attachment

MichaelG.
.

Ref. http://www.alanwood.net/olympus/lieberk ... ctors.html
Ref. https://microscope-antiques.com/lieberkuhn.html
Ref. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3221679 [recommended reading]

.

Edit: ___ useful dimensional info here: https://docs.rs-online.com/5b1a/A700000008798540.pdf
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#3 Post by Phill Brown » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:55 am

It's a great start.
The resolution of the bubbles is also excellent.
I don't get bubbles with Canada balsam, adding a drop of solvent (xylene) before adding the CB.
If water is the solvent it might work to add some along with detergent to break the surface tension to the specimen and allow a few moments before adding the mountant.
It's only a maybe, could just add other issues.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#4 Post by shutterbug » Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:56 am

Thank you Michael and Phill!!

@MichaelG: Thank you for the Lieberkühn idea!! I already have equipment for lighting it properly (with speedlights, polarizers etc) but I was a bit too lazy to set everything up properly haha - I'll do that today!
The Lieberkühn reflector is very interesting - it'll probably have a similar look to a ring light, though I don't know how feasible it will be to create something like that for the Mitutoyo, it's already very heavy and I wouldn't want to put a real weight on it either... but thank you!
I'll photograph some unmounted specimens today, I think these ones will be even better, especially with the proper flash light - and I should also mention that the lens isn't designed for "regular" microscopy, it's a metallurgic lens so photographing slides isn't quite ideal with it anyway.

@Phill Brown: That's exactly what I've been doing for the specimens with the fewer bubbles (or no bubbles at all) :) Though I've since realised that a lot of air isn't just getting trapped in the mounting medium during mounting, it was added when mixing/thinning the glue and warming up the mixture also reduces bubbles quite a bit!

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#5 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:07 am

shutterbug wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:56 am

@MichaelG: Thank you for the Lieberkühn idea!! I already have equipment for lighting it properly (with speedlights, polarizers etc) but I was a bit too lazy to set everything up properly haha - I'll do that today!
The Lieberkühn reflector is very interesting - it'll probably have a similar look to a ring light, though I don't know how feasible it will be to create something like that for the Mitutoyo, it's already very heavy and I wouldn't want to put a real weight on it either... but thank you!

The Olympus one, for the little RMS-mount 20mm lens, is very small and lightweight
… I will post some photos and numbers later.

Highly recommended as design inspiration.

MichaelG.
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#6 Post by Phill Brown » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:36 am

IMG-20230329-WA0000.jpg
IMG-20230329-WA0000.jpg (191.6 KiB) Viewed 1794 times
Just checking if you use a dropper.
Here's one I made earlier.
7mm glass rod.
Heat a glass rod in the middle with a butane torch until it glows orange,pull it to about 2mm and cut in the middle, heat the end in the vertical to melt it to whatever size ball.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#7 Post by shutterbug » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:27 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:07 am

The Olympus one, for the little RMS-mount 20mm lens, is very small and lightweight
… I will post some photos and numbers later.

Highly recommended as design inspiration.

MichaelG.
Yeah the problem with that is that the Mitutoyo has a rather huge front lens with a diameter of 29.2mm and an overall diameter of 34mm.
So even the Lieberkühn adapter for the bigger Olympus lens (32mm) won't fit - but one could argue that he shiny chrome tube acts like a permanent LK mount hehe.

The reason why I want to get a lens hood for the Mitu is actually to avoid any frontal reflections from the lens , those would show up in reflective areas like spiders eyes, beetle carapace, shells etc. - and I really want to control reflections with cross-polarisation as well, so any additional light that I can't control would be counterproductive.

Phill Brown wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:36 am
Just checking if you use a dropper.
Here's one I made earlier.
7mm glass rod.
Heat a glass rod in the middle with a butane torch until it glows orange,pull it to about 2mm and cut in the middle, heat the end in the vertical to melt it to whatever size ball.

Oh my god, Phill I'm such an idiot!!! Of course!! I should have used a dropper like that, I even have something very similar I could use for that!!!
I've been using stuff like a pipette or tweezers but such a glass rod dropper would definitely be the best solution!

Thank you! :) I think that'll give my quest for "zero bubble mounts" a real boost!!

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#8 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:00 pm

Sorry ... I was assuming you had the smaller PLAN APO 5x 0.14

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#9 Post by shutterbug » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:26 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:00 pm
Sorry ... I was assuming you had the smaller PLAN APO 5x 0.14

MichaelG.
Oh, no worries - I don't actually think there's a smaller Mitutoyo Plan APO around, I think they are all pretty much the same size?

But I love the idea for 'smaller' 5x lenses, that would be excellent if you need more light from the front but you have no tiny ring light!

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#10 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:44 pm

shutterbug wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:26 pm

Oh, no worries - I don't actually think there's a smaller Mitutoyo Plan APO around, I think they are all pretty much the same size?
.

Apologies for my misunderstanding :oops:

It was based on this data-sheet, which I referenced earlier :
Edit: ___ useful dimensional info here: https://docs.rs-online.com/5b1a/A700000008798540.pdf
… but obviously you know the size of your lens, and that one ^^^ is irrelevant!

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#11 Post by shutterbug » Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:14 am

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#12 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:07 am

.

Fabulous !!

… I am green with envy.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#13 Post by Phill Brown » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:17 am

Really great results for such early days.
Some reference of the F.O.V would be good.
Just a rough idea of the size bugs would be plenty.
I've so far failed to bribe my children to sort stacking.
I have wondered if a thick walled acrylic tube with a chamfered/polished end could be fashioned into a tubular/ring fibre optic.
My guess is it's been done or doesn't work.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#14 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:02 am

.
I have ‘no axe to grind’ but: In case anyone here is interested:

The Olympus Lieberkühn reflector for the little 20mm lens weighs just 12.1g
.
It is beautifully made, from anodised aluminium, and has an outside diameter of 45.92mm
So far as I can determine, the reflecting surface is simply part of a sphere, of about 62mm radius
… I can detect no evidence of parabolic figuring. [but might try again, sometime]
.
Something functionally similar, but less robust, could probably be 3D printed and weigh less than 4g

MichaelG.

.
43BECB5C-812A-469C-9820-35C6F585004D.jpeg
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#15 Post by shutterbug » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:50 am

Phill Brown wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:17 am
Really great results for such early days.
Some reference of the F.O.V would be good.
Just a rough idea of the size bugs would be plenty.
I've so far failed to bribe my children to sort stacking.
I have wondered if a thick walled acrylic tube with a chamfered/polished end could be fashioned into a tubular/ring fibre optic.
My guess is it's been done or doesn't work.

Oh sure, of course!!
The body of this bug is 4mm long (excluding wings) and the sensor is 23.5mm x 15.6mm, though some cropping happens during stacking, but it's really minute.
The resolution of the sensor is 6000x4000, giving it a 3.91 micron pixel size - so that's pretty much at the optical limit for what's possible.

One thing that I'll have to figure out is the proper spacing of the tube lens. Regular orientation results in the best image quality overall but it seems like an increased space between the Mitu and the tube lens results in a more even image quality and (I think) less distortion.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#16 Post by shutterbug » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:01 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:02 am
.
I have ‘no axe to grind’ but: In case anyone here is interested:

The Olympus Lieberkühn reflector for the little 20mm lens weighs just 12.1g
.
It is beautifully made, from anodised aluminium, and has an outside diameter of 45.92mm
So far as I can determine, the reflecting surface is simply part of a sphere, of about 62mm radius
… I can detect no evidence of parabolic figuring. [but might try again, sometime]
.
Something functionally similar, but less robust, could probably be 3D printed and weigh less than 4g

MichaelG.

.
43BECB5C-812A-469C-9820-35C6F585004D.jpeg
Then it could probably fit, though as I mentioned the whole lens is very fragile and super easily knocked out of alignment and there are a lot of people who've had it happen to them. The elements are not screwed in place but friction fit with extremely small tolerances so I'd be really hesitant to screw or pinch anything to the front lens, especially if it wasn't made for it. The lens hood I have in mind would fit over the lens like a tube and only be very gently friction fit to the knurled area, just enough to stay in place and hold a small 39mm circular polarizer.

However it should be noted that the lens has a really long working distance of 34mm so I can comfortably get close with a light source anyway - I'm actually running into difficulties with a too bright light source, when I'm getting close with those speedlights and they are set to tele mode (which focussed the beam from the flash) I'm at least 2 stops too bright.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#17 Post by shutterbug » Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:21 am

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#18 Post by Phill Brown » Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:22 am

Double posted.
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#19 Post by Phill Brown » Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:35 am

Great work.
I have a ball radius tool for the lathe and a bar of 50mm aluminium.
Not 100% about aluminium but I have silver nitrate which works on brass which is easy to mirror polish.
2" brass is more expensive and heavier but if a couple grooves were cut inside for O rings it could be made to slip on.
With a ball radius tool it would be possible to make a very thin wall spherical mirror, DF patches can work well with lots of stray light in the working gap.

I'm hoping to get more time to play with microscopes this year.
I now have picolay 32 bit but so far it's epic fail for stacking.
Windows 7 and an aged PC.
Your results are definitely an inspiration to make more of an effort.
I have x4 .13 Watson which is better than Nikon X4 .10.
There's also a X5 .12 Watson which was fitted to the Hilux, I have one but they are not common.
The X4 .13 Watson can be had for next to nothing for experimenting.
We all seem to have a bias for makers, In the UK Watson had to compete with Vickers who were able to subsidize their products.
Some of their Diatom test slides will still sort the wheat from the chaff.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#20 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:11 am

The new lighting is a great improvement … Well done !
[pity you deleted the original image … comparison would have been instructive]

On the matter of identification : August Köhler spoke to me in a dream last night, and said:
“call it what you like, nobody seems to care any more”

:lol: MichaelG.
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#21 Post by Phill Brown » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:25 am

On the matter of identification : August Köhler spoke to me in a dream last night, and said:
“call it what you like, nobody seems to care any more”

:lol: MichaelG.
[/quote]
This is definitely worthy of it's own thread.
Without wishing to give medical advice,
Freud would have had interesting things to say about it.
The mind is a much larger space for some, nearing a void for many
For those who believe it's a fine line between genius and madness, happy days.
They're just jealous they can't hear the voices.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#22 Post by shutterbug » Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:06 am

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#23 Post by shutterbug » Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:26 am

Phill Brown wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:35 am
Great work.
I have a ball radius tool for the lathe and a bar of 50mm aluminium.
Not 100% about aluminium but I have silver nitrate which works on brass which is easy to mirror polish.
2" brass is more expensive and heavier but if a couple grooves were cut inside for O rings it could be made to slip on.
With a ball radius tool it would be possible to make a very thin wall spherical mirror, DF patches can work well with lots of stray light in the working gap.

I'm hoping to get more time to play with microscopes this year.
I now have picolay 32 bit but so far it's epic fail for stacking.
Windows 7 and an aged PC.
Your results are definitely an inspiration to make more of an effort.
I have x4 .13 Watson which is better than Nikon X4 .10.
There's also a X5 .12 Watson which was fitted to the Hilux, I have one but they are not common.
The X4 .13 Watson can be had for next to nothing for experimenting.
We all seem to have a bias for makers, In the UK Watson had to compete with Vickers who were able to subsidize their products.
Some of their Diatom test slides will still sort the wheat from the chaff.
Thank you!!
Actually in this case I used a cut out of a plastic yogurt cup as a sort of "ring light diffusor" which I made to fit precisely onto my objective - and as you can see there's still a dark spot in the center which is where the lens sits - but I'm totally fine with that. Actually I think t's already too much diffused and could benefit from some polariser filter - which is why I made a lens hood with a filter attachment :)
That'll also enable me to do cross-polarisation etc, so yeah, it'll be fun!

I've never heard of Picolay but it looks very interesting - though I'm on a Mac so I can't use it anyway hehe - but I've also tried Zerene Stacker which got me very good results but I prefer Helicon (Pro) for many reasons - one of which is because I'm also able to combine RAW DNG files and then get a DNG file as a result - that's much better than jpeg or tif!
But it's also very expensive and the 3D-stuff is very clumsy and doesn't work that well.


EDIT: I think I finally found the first beetle: tachys quadrisignatus. Yet again the coloration is not quite the same but that may be due to differences with lights etc. But it's very, very close!

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#24 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:35 am

shutterbug wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:06 am
MichaelG. wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:11 am
The new lighting is a great improvement … Well done !
[pity you deleted the original image … comparison would have been instructive]

On the matter of identification : August Köhler spoke to me in a dream last night, and said:
“call it what you like, nobody seems to care any more”

:lol: MichaelG.
Hahahah :-D

I would counter with: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet!"

Or in this case: "A bug by any other name would shine as bright!"

Here's the previous version:
[…]
It wasn't too bad but the new one is a bit better. I should probably do a "mixture" of both lights for the next subject but it's almost impossible to change the setup and still get both images to properly line up for composing.
Thanks for re-posting the photo … much appreciated
It would be especially interesting/useful if you could briefly describe the difference between the two lighting set-ups.
Edit: __ which I now note that you have already done

And thanks for taking my Köhler comment in good part.

MichaelG.
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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#25 Post by shutterbug » Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:42 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:35 am

Thanks for re-posting the photo … much appreciated
It would be especially interesting/useful if you could briefly describe the difference between the two lighting set-ups.

And thanks for taking my Köhler comment in good part.

MichaelG.
Sure! :)

Both setups used two speedlights from the sides, the first image (which I re-posted and I wasn't happy with) had two round diffusors in front of the speedlights, very close to the subject and as a slight reflector from below I used a small piece of aluminum foil.

The second image had the home-made 'ring-diffusor', illuminated by the speedlights from the sides. The speedlights were pretty much in the same position, only slightly tilted towards the diffusor around the lens. So it was almost a ring light. No additional reflectors were used.

The speedlights are very cheap but effective Godox TT600, nothing fancy but so far very reliable. I only use them at up to 1/4 power (maximum) and with around 3 second intervals between shots to avoid overheating during long stacks (300+) and to ensure they properly recharge after each cycle.

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#26 Post by Sure Squintsalot » Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:24 pm

shutterbug wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:42 am
Both setups used two speedlights from the sides, the first image (which I re-posted and I wasn't happy with) had two round diffusors in front of the speedlights, very close to the subject and as a slight reflector from below I used a small piece of aluminum foil.

The second image had the home-made 'ring-diffusor', illuminated by the speedlights from the sides.
I've never seen a (dead) bug with such perfect symmetry....

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Re: Low magnification, high resolution: known flies, unknown bugs and lots of bubbles

#27 Post by shutterbug » Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:07 pm

Sure Squintsalot wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:24 pm
shutterbug wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:42 am
Both setups used two speedlights from the sides, the first image (which I re-posted and I wasn't happy with) had two round diffusors in front of the speedlights, very close to the subject and as a slight reflector from below I used a small piece of aluminum foil.

The second image had the home-made 'ring-diffusor', illuminated by the speedlights from the sides.
I've never seen a (dead) bug with such perfect symmetry....
Neither have I - naturally with legs and antennae it's often necessary to cheat and copy them around, after all I'm not doing forensic work or scientific papers so that's okay in my book, especially since I don't have a microscope for properly posing and cleaning the bugs (yet).
With bigger specimens it's much easier, but this one is approx 3mm long, you can imagine how long/thin the legs and antennae are and that it's impossible to pose them with the naked eye.

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