MicrobeHunter.com Microscopy Forum

I would like to propose a new sub-forum: "Morphology and Behavior,"separate from but an adjunct to the sub-forum “Identification help.”

I will relate an experience to indicate why I think this is necessary:

Recently, from an infusion, I had one of my first experiences observing a Paramecium. I was looking at what I thought must be a vacuole. Suddenly that vacuole converted into a star shape, then changed back. Then I noticed that there were two, one anterior and one posterior. Further, the opening and closing occurred regularly, so I counted, about 5 seconds per cycle. I then discovered that I was looking at contractile vacuoles and proceeded to the glossary in Chapter 2 of Lynn’s The Ciliated Protozoa , Third Edition. There I found that that I was looking at a CV (contractile vacuole), a “ . . . liquid-filled organelle (sometimes multiple), serving as an osmoregulator in the cytoplasm of nearly all ciliates; generally pulsates with regular frequency under natural conditions . . . “ p. 24.

Tantalizing questions worthy of discussion could be:

1. What is osmoregulation?
2. What mechanism (in ciliates) determines the periodicity of the cycling of these vacuoles?

I am NOT asking for answers to these questions here. I am suggesting that the myriad fascinating topics for discussion that arise based on our observations, as well as reading, do NOT have a venue at the MH forum.

Segue to the sub-forum “Identification help:” Clearly the question most oft raised when looking down the eye tubes is: What is it? So clearly this sub-forum is essential. Its purpose is taxonomic identification. Giving something a name is critical if we are going to have mutually intelligible conversation. However, this sub-forum is NOT the place for the most fertile and intrinsically fascinating questions for discussion relating to morphology and behavior. If raised here, those points appear as digressions and not main topics for discussion. Now, surely, a subset of morphological observations (e.g. Does it have cilia? Does it have chloroplasts?) are necessary to identification but the end goal of that discussion is identification and not answering the question: How does it work?

This is my reasoning to suggest why a new sub-forum “Morphology and Behavior” would be not only edifying but exciting.

An excellent proposal
… I happily second’ it.

MichaelG.

This would be of great interest to me as a wondrous learning tool.
Greg

I think interesting behaviors can be posted in "picture and videos"? Is there enough flow to split the "picture and videos" sub forum?

smollerthings wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:50 pm

I think interesting behaviors can be posted in "picture and videos"? Is there enough flow to split the "picture and videos" sub forum?

They obviously can ... but, as to your second point : 'pictures and videos' legitimately covers a multitude of things, including the pretty pictures and the disappointing results.
.. perhaps a more specific sub-forum would improve the 'signal to noise ratio' for those who wish to discuss 'Morphology and Behavior'

[ as a user of English English, I will try to live with the spelling ]

MichaelG.

MichaelG. wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:40 pm

more specific sub-forum would improve the 'signal to noise ratio' for those who wish to discuss 'Morphology and Behavior'

I take your point.
It will provide more colour to those willing to discuss this specific subject.

Interesting discussion, worth looking over and having a think-about.
My first reaction was perhaps the expected 'why do we need it?', a pefectly reasonable response I think. But when I re-read linuxusr's post above I saw the point. There is, and has always been, a good strong interest in this forum in the wonder that is the world of the 'pond water, microorganism, swimming-about critters' (erm, I don't know much about this area, apologies..).

As I always find with microscopy, the dedicated, frequently-posting enthusiasts this may include are naturally turning to the Taxonomic practices as, said above by linuxusr "Giving something a name is critical if we are going to have mutually intelligible conversation.", identification if most often very important to lay the ground for constructive and more detailed discussion.

There seems to me to be plenty of 'flow' to warrant such a category - many members here have the desire for the tiniest detailed exploration of what they are observing. Although I'm in the Botanical dept as may be said, of this forum, I too always follow the often more technical threads which explore the finer details, often taxonomic. This gives a path to further exploration beyond the 'spotting and filming' experience, which in itself is very rewarding of course.

A good point was made re these thread-offshoots appearing to be (mere?) digressions, when to many they are simply fascinating in their own right - I'm certainly in this camp personally; this to me enters the depths of the microscopic - the realms of stimulating exploration and discussion that lies beyond and of course augments the imagery both static and video....

Yes say I - count my vote in favour!

MichaelG. wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:40 pm

[ as a user of English English, I will try to live with the spelling ]

I love this idea and enthusiastically support the motion! Behavior is to me the most interesting aspect of microscopy — otherwise I’d just look at mounted slides rather than wrangling the living beings. While physical description is important in identification, I’d love to not have to wade through the “how many rows of cilia” discussions in order to find some mention of why they do what they do. Each of these creatures gives an impression of having its own personality and temperament, and that is because of the behavioral actions and strategies we observe. I’d like to see more discussion on that.

Regarding the name of the sub-forum, the word “morphology” seems to point back towards physical attributes, so perhaps “Behaviors and Life Processes” or something like that would be more clear? Maybe the biology people can help.

How about 'Form, Function & Behaviour'.....

This is a very progressive note. Describe what you see and try to make sense of it. Then we can argue about the sense..

I would like to suggest having the word “ecology” somewhere in the name, perhaps “behavioural ecology” or something like that, to help trigger discussion in that direction. The behaviour often relates to the bigger ecological picture of physical environmental (such as the Reynolds number/viscosity which has a significant impact on movement) or biological interspecific or intraspecific interactions which I feel adds to the fascination and understanding.

But the morphology I feel is just as important as well and should be included too of course. The particular 3d geometry influences movement in interesting ways. For example dinoflagellates have body armour with a helical groove that makes them swim with helical rotation through water, with interesting discussions on fluid dynamics and efficiency.

I was particularly pleased to see ‘morphology’ included in this proposal … because there is great potential for investigation in that area.

Alan Turing [yes, the genius code-breaker] did some work in the early 1950s :
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/h ... oupland-1/
The mathematical content is near-incomprehensible to this mere mortal … but the underlying concepts are interesting and significant.

Turing also worked on a computer model of a chemical reaction-diffusion process which might explain the emergence of patterns in biological organisms. His research student Bernard Richards applied reaction-diffusion equations to spherical forms. As Turing expected, they produced the symmetrical 'spines' seen in microscopic sea animals called radiolaria.

See also: https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/pu ... on-the-mat

.
MichaelG.

MichaelG. wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:36 am

I was particularly pleased to see ‘morphology’ included in this proposal … because there is great potential for investigation in that area.

Alan Turing [yes, the genius code-breaker] did some work in the early 1950s :
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/h ... oupland-1/
The mathematical content is near-incomprehensible to this mere mortal … but the underlying concepts are interesting and significant.

Turing also worked on a computer model of a chemical reaction-diffusion process which might explain the emergence of patterns in biological organisms. His research student Bernard Richards applied reaction-diffusion equations to spherical forms. As Turing expected, they produced the symmetrical 'spines' seen in microscopic sea animals called radiolaria.

See also: https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/pu ... on-the-mat

.
MichaelG.

Symmetry in organisms has been described in relatively simple mathematical and evolution terms in books by Richard Dawkins ("The Blind Watchmaker" etc).
Very enjoyable readings (decades ago).

MichaelG. wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:40 pm

smollerthings wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:50 pm

I think interesting behaviors can be posted in "picture and videos"? Is there enough flow to split the "picture and videos" sub forum?

They obviously can ... but, as to your second point : 'pictures and videos' legitimately covers a multitude of things, including the pretty pictures and the disappointing results.
.. perhaps a more specific sub-forum would improve the 'signal to noise ratio' for those who wish to discuss 'Morphology and Behavior'

[ as a user of English English, I will try to live with the spelling ]

MichaelG.

I agree MichaelG. "Pictures and Video" are interesting but tend to invite comments like "Nice!" rather than invite discussion. On the other hand, smollerthings, your suggestion also makes sense. For that matter you could also split morphology with the identification sub-forum. However, I'm not sure how a sub-forum could be split. I think, on the whole, I prefer a separate sub-forum on morphology and behavior (others have suggested different names too). It could be piloted and then be continued, modified, or just killed if it doesn't fly.

mrsonchus wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:06 pm

Interesting discussion, worth looking over and having a think-about.
My first reaction was perhaps the expected 'why do we need it?', a pefectly reasonable response I think. But when I re-read linuxusr's post above I saw the point. There is, and has always been, a good strong interest in this forum in the wonder that is the world of the 'pond water, microorganism, swimming-about critters' (erm, I don't know much about this area, apologies..).

As I always find with microscopy, the dedicated, frequently-posting enthusiasts this may include are naturally turning to the Taxonomic practices as, said above by linuxusr "Giving something a name is critical if we are going to have mutually intelligible conversation.", identification if most often very important to lay the ground for constructive and more detailed discussion.

There seems to me to be plenty of 'flow' to warrant such a category - many members here have the desire for the tiniest detailed exploration of what they are observing. Although I'm in the Botanical dept as may be said, of this forum, I too always follow the often more technical threads which explore the finer details, often taxonomic. This gives a path to further exploration beyond the 'spotting and filming' experience, which in itself is very rewarding of course.

A good point was made re these thread-offshoots appearing to be (mere?) digressions, when to many they are simply fascinating in their own right - I'm certainly in this camp personally; this to me enters the depths of the microscopic - the realms of stimulating exploration and discussion that lies beyond and of course augments the imagery both static and video....

Yes say I - count my vote in favour!

Yes, mrsonchus, it's certainly true, as you say, that " . . . identification if most often very important to lay the ground for constructive and more detailed discussion." The problem is that this discussion never gets off the ground in the identification sub-forum. And, really, why should it, when the avowed purpose is identification. That's why I think that a separate morphology/behavior sub-forum would be useful. It would go without saying that in such a sub-forum, that one would already have an identification and would likely have a link to video and/or pictures. From that point the writer would indicate the topic of interest and discussion would proceed.

Hobbyst46 wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:42 am

MichaelG. wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:36 am

I was particularly pleased to see ‘morphology’ included in this proposal … because there is great potential for investigation in that area.

Alan Turing [yes, the genius code-breaker] did some work in the early 1950s :
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/h ... oupland-1/
The mathematical content is near-incomprehensible to this mere mortal … but the underlying concepts are interesting and significant.

Turing also worked on a computer model of a chemical reaction-diffusion process which might explain the emergence of patterns in biological organisms. His research student Bernard Richards applied reaction-diffusion equations to spherical forms. As Turing expected, they produced the symmetrical 'spines' seen in microscopic sea animals called radiolaria.

See also: https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/pu ... on-the-mat

.
MichaelG.

Symmetry in organisms has been described in relatively simple mathematical and evolution terms in books by Richard Dawkins ("The Blind Watchmaker" etc).
Very enjoyable readings (decades ago).

Many years ago I did a fun undergrad videomicrography project studying the morphological symmetry in relation to swimming speed of various symmetric, helically symmetric and asymmetric flagellates. We used geometric formulae to try to approximate the shape and surface area:volume ratio. One of my classmates who worked on it with me, he wrote a computer programme to track the flagellates and measure their speed. Here's the full text of the unpublished paper: https://www.linyangchen.com/Phytoplankton-morphology-swimming-speed-video-microscopy

Certainly not in the league of Turing or Dawkins but I hope it might be useful to anyone investigating this area. Unfortunately the videomicrographs are lost.

mrsonchus wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:04 pm

How about 'Form, Function & Behaviour'.....

"Form, Function & Behavior" sounds good. I like it. I think it is a better choice than "Morphology and Behavior" for two reasons: 1. Rolls easier off the tongue and not so awkward, 2. "Form" would be the morphology or gross anatomy part, whereas adding function to behavior would further develop behavior.

ScienceMatters wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:33 pm

I love this idea and enthusiastically support the motion! Behavior is to me the most interesting aspect of microscopy — otherwise I’d just look at mounted slides rather than wrangling the living beings. While physical description is important in identification, I’d love to not have to wade through the “how many rows of cilia” discussions in order to find some mention of why they do what they do. Each of these creatures gives an impression of having its own personality and temperament, and that is because of the behavioral actions and strategies we observe. I’d like to see more discussion on that.

Regarding the name of the sub-forum, the word “morphology” seems to point back towards physical attributes, so perhaps “Behaviors and Life Processes” or something like that would be more clear? Maybe the biology people can help.

You say that "Behavior is to me the most interesting aspect of microscopy." Absolutely! The identification of a specimen or a photo/video of a specimen (I reference the two sub-forums) is the beginning point of observation, not the end point. A morphology/behavior sub-forum in no way diminishes the importance of identification in that sub-forum. Rather the former is an adjunct to the latter. They are complementary. So there could be a flow, like this: First you go to the identification sub-forum to identify your specimen (if you need to), then if there's something interesting you want to discuss you proceed to the morphology sub-forum, name your specimen, provide a link to a video or picture, then state your interest, what you have investigated (researched), and let the discussion begin. A post could start like this: "I'd like to discuss bilateral symmetry in the alga Micrasterias." And you would have pictures. . .

I second mrsonchus proposal for renaming to "Form, Function, and Behavior."

The most basic tenet of the Bauhaus was form follows function.

It will be interesting to see to what extent nature behaves similarly or differently.

MichaelG.