Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

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linuxusr
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Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#1 Post by linuxusr » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:11 pm

First Challenge: Library

Paramecium is the most ubiquitous and most studied eukaryotic cell, at least among the protista. So suppose someone wants to learn about the radial canals that channel solutes to the Contractile Vacuole? Can’t do it. scholar.google.com is too specialized and most articles are paywalled. Luckily, for the generalist there is The Biology of Paramecium , Wichterman, R. 1986, springer.com

But that costs ~ $150 USD for the ebook version, beyond the reach of amateur microscopists. And I’m sure that other members can describe major works in their sub-forum of interest whose prices are prohibitive. Works such as these are intended to be purchased by academic libraries, institutions, not individual amateurs. But isn’t microbehunter.com a kind of institution? Just as a library purchases one copyrighted copy for multiple lending, what if this forum could purchase a handful of major works for sharing?

Second Challenge: Funding microbehunter.com

Oliver Kim has toyed with the idea of membership. But there is already funding via Patreon supporters, so the idea of a membership fee appears contradictory or redundant.

Intersection: Library + Funding microbehunter.com


Suppose this:

Oliver Kim divides support payments into ranges, arbitrarily, let’s say three ranges.

In my opinion, membership should not confer any privilege. This could lead to elitism and spoil the good feelings of cooperation that exist. Instead, members who make monthly payments are noted with a badge on their post page. The categories could be as follows:

a. no badge; wish to remain anonymous
b. copper (badge)
c. silver (badge)
d. gold (badge)


b-d conform to the ranges selected by Mr. Kim from current Patreon supporters. The means of payment remain the same except that badges indicate supporters and levels of support.

“e” is Library Patron and funds a monthly amount greater than the median for “d”, gold.

Mr. Kim works out copyright issues. Members recommend major works to this sub-forum.
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mrsonchus
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#2 Post by mrsonchus » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:36 pm

Sent you a p.m.
John B

charlie g
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#3 Post by charlie g » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:15 am

Hello, hello, linuxser,and Mr.Sonchas! For my opine...gulp...there is a rich and deep level of online free resources to enter into morphology, functional anatomy, and community webs of protists with meiofauna, nanofauna, megafauna, picofauna, phylogeography, evo-devo interactions. I sense no need for Oliver Kim to set up fee-schedules to edge this online community into a tiered 'pay to play' microscopy community. Internet-neutrality is already stymied enough by: 'pay to get internet resources'...pretty please bring your microscopy, your excitement to this microscopy community...rather than 'challenges of financial schemes, and sub groups in this forum...ahem...do some microscopy to share...please do not burden Oliver Kim with 'challenges'.

For under $100 USD, you can get up to speed with excellent used texts to hold in your hands ( no electricity to read and enjoy these tomes at your home...or on vacation). But first do your own home work with all the free online content , no no Paramecium species are not the most studied of protists...in my humble opinion.

Rather than challenge this forums founder to instate a 'tiered fee system...and current content library'...please share with this forum your shared microscopy.


respectfully, charlie g.

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#4 Post by PeteM » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:35 am

I'm with Charlie G. on this - this forum already manages to be very useful to aspiring microbe hunters and microscopists. IMO, it doesn't have to become the Library of Alexandria as well and have gold, silver etc. levels.

In large part this success is due to Oliver -- it's a great forum.

But also from the two thousand or so contributors here. Bruce Taylor seems to be able to identify anything protist. Phil and Wayne have immense knowledge of American Optical and its Spencer, Reichert, Cambridge, Leica etc. kin. Michael G. always has an interesting and intelligent take on things. MicroBob makes exceptional contributions - he's maybe our most knowledgeable all-around microscopist with a dozen others in contention? Scarodactyl knows stereo scopes and more in great detail. MrSonchus is a bonafide plant cell guru. Hobbyist, 75rrr, and Zzffnn are always worth listening to. Hans, Viktor, and Abednego especially school us on optics. Imperator Rex and Charles know all things Zeiss. Charles Krebs and more recently Rob Berdan have inspired thousands with the their photos -- and also their excellent how-to write ups. Carl Hunsinger can likely restore anything Olympus to perfection, and in his sleep. Tom Jones has been an immense help. Saul makes cool accessories as well as photos. And on and on . . .

Might also add that this forum has helped spawn several really good YouTube channels - many on protists but other topics as well. And then there are the many other sites. This diversity is a strength, IMO.

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#5 Post by smollerthings » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:10 am

Whatever is done, should not hamper the accessibility of this forum to everyone that is willing to participate.

That being said, I find the idea of badge interesting, not as some form of elitism but as a sign of support and appreciation for Microbehunter's work and dedication - and remind people that Microbehunter has a Patreon. Not in favor of tiering. MH's patreon is pay as you wish. No need to create a big money club vs small money IMO. MH has 3000 ish users here. Reminding people about the Patreon will have some level of impact.

Could MH just create some form of tag one can put on its profile if Patreon supporter? It frankly doesn't need to be enforced. Who would fake support that doesn't give any supplementary goodies? Alternatively, one can show it in its signature.

The logistics of the library seems complicated...

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#6 Post by mrsonchus » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:01 am

Oh noooo... not more complication steering inexorably towards monetization.....
Why can't we simply be happy to have this excellent forum in it's current form? Is it broken? No.

If I see another web-ste/forum that I have to jump through hoops to get near I think I'll scream my head off.

There's a very good reason that this is the only forum that I follow or in any way contribute-to - it's excellent the way it is, with a host of great contributors, many new aspiring microscopists joining the pursuit, and all layers in between. The World seems intent on emphasizing difference, tiers, stratification, grouping etc. The 'active topics' button is my best friend here - each and every time presenting me with choices to follow.

Please don't fiddle with this fine forum, just take the time to enjoy it.
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#7 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:46 pm

i like that there resources subforum havent finished reading all those books yet
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#8 Post by MicroBob » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:17 pm

The start of it was the library idea and I don't think that such a library will work. How many forum users would be interested in buying access to a paramecium book? These few people would have to come up with the 150 USD, increasing the cost for each reader to a level where nobody would be interested any more.
Then there would be the question whether it is at all possible to found a digital loan service on such a small scale and how much work would be involved here.
As far as I can see there are several possibilities to get access to these books and then there is this forum where microscopy stuff is discussed - I don't see an advantage in connecting these activities.
I have seen other forums with such a membership class system, but I don't like it and introducing such a system would make the forum less attractive to me. The biggest part of a forum is put in by the contributing and helpful members and the moderators and admins, the costs seem to be small enough to cover them by a donation here and there. So if Oliver would like us to contribute a little more it would be a good idea if he told us. It really is a pity that he is not more active in the discussions here anyway!

Bob

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#9 Post by PeteM » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:37 pm

+1 to MicroBob

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#10 Post by linuxusr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:29 am

charlie g wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:15 am
Hello, hello, linuxser,and Mr.Sonchas! For my opine...gulp...there is a rich and deep level of online free resources to enter into morphology, functional anatomy, and community webs of protists with meiofauna, nanofauna, megafauna, picofauna, phylogeography, evo-devo interactions. I sense no need for Oliver Kim to set up fee-schedules to edge this online community into a tiered 'pay to play' microscopy community. Internet-neutrality is already stymied enough by: 'pay to get internet resources'...pretty please bring your microscopy, your excitement to this microscopy community...rather than 'challenges of financial schemes, and sub groups in this forum...ahem...do some microscopy to share...please do not burden Oliver Kim with 'challenges'.

For under $100 USD, you can get up to speed with excellent used texts to hold in your hands ( no electricity to read and enjoy these tomes at your home...or on vacation). But first do your own home work with all the free online content , no no Paramecium species are not the most studied of protists...in my humble opinion.

Rather than challenge this forums founder to instate a 'tiered fee system...and current content library'...please share with this forum your shared microscopy.


respectfully, charlie g.
I agree there is a plethora of documentation available, much of it in the public domain. Unfortunately, many of these items are randomly distributed among hundreds of posts, including but not limited to Resources. I think that for these items, it would be worth while to collect and collate them with a one sentence description for each and put them in a "sticky." For that matter, there are other useful stickies possible, such as "Tips and Tricks."

But what I am referencing here are the major works of microscopial literature that is not in the public domain, is copyrighted, and costs about $150.00 USD a pop.

I agree with you and I am completely against a tiered "pay to play" community. My idea is to use badges with levels for sustaining donations to indicate the importance of fund raising. Such a bade confers not one iota of privilege and one can opt to remain anonymous and not show any badge . . . The highest tier would be to fund expensive library copyrighted purchases that would be available for all to use . . .
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#11 Post by linuxusr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:32 am

smollerthings wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:10 am
Whatever is done, should not hamper the accessibility of this forum to everyone that is willing to participate.

That being said, I find the idea of badge interesting, not as some form of elitism but as a sign of support and appreciation for Microbehunter's work and dedication - and remind people that Microbehunter has a Patreon. Not in favor of tiering. MH's patreon is pay as you wish. No need to create a big money club vs small money IMO. MH has 3000 ish users here. Reminding people about the Patreon will have some level of impact.

Could MH just create some form of tag one can put on its profile if Patreon supporter? It frankly doesn't need to be enforced. Who would fake support that doesn't give any supplementary goodies? Alternatively, one can show it in its signature.

The logistics of the library seems complicated...
Yes, even a tag would be fine, if it would be felt that tiered badges could create bad feelings. The point is to make the financial support of the forum more obvious than it is now.
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#12 Post by linuxusr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:41 am

MicroBob wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:17 pm
The start of it was the library idea and I don't think that such a library will work. How many forum users would be interested in buying access to a paramecium book? These few people would have to come up with the 150 USD, increasing the cost for each reader to a level where nobody would be interested any more.
Then there would be the question whether it is at all possible to found a digital loan service on such a small scale and how much work would be involved here.
As far as I can see there are several possibilities to get access to these books and then there is this forum where microscopy stuff is discussed - I don't see an advantage in connecting these activities.
I have seen other forums with such a membership class system, but I don't like it and introducing such a system would make the forum less attractive to me. The biggest part of a forum is put in by the contributing and helpful members and the moderators and admins, the costs seem to be small enough to cover them by a donation here and there. So if Oliver would like us to contribute a little more it would be a good idea if he told us. It really is a pity that he is not more active in the discussions here anyway!

Bob
I agree with you and I am completely against a "membership class system." My idea of badges was nothing more than to indicate financial support in a way that's more obvious than it is now, to encourage others. Periodic book purchases would be funded by those who make the greatest contributions but no privilege would be conferred. Such books would be available for all to share.

On a further point, at this time, there is a wealth of documentation and books, much of it in the public domain, that are randomly referenced across hundreds of posts in various sub-forums, Resources, as well. These items really ought to be collated, each described with one sentence, and put in one place for all members to reference, such as a "sticky." If anyone, wants to join me, I'll start digging up these URL's and Oliver will ultimately decide if such a sticky would be useful. This is a separate question from that of expensive major works that are copyrighted.
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#13 Post by linuxusr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:48 am

mrsonchus wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:01 am
Oh noooo... not more complication steering inexorably towards monetization.....
Why can't we simply be happy to have this excellent forum in it's current form? Is it broken? No.

If I see another web-ste/forum that I have to jump through hoops to get near I think I'll scream my head off.

There's a very good reason that this is the only forum that I follow or in any way contribute-to - it's excellent the way it is, with a host of great contributors, many new aspiring microscopists joining the pursuit, and all layers in between. The World seems intent on emphasizing difference, tiers, stratification, grouping etc. The 'active topics' button is my best friend here - each and every time presenting me with choices to follow.

Please don't fiddle with this fine forum, just take the time to enjoy it.
Really, no monetization, no hoops--just a strategy to augment the Patreon support that already exists. I feel your angst around "fiddling" with the forum, but, really, this IS the sub-forum about the forum and the website, so this is the place to talk about fiddling, hopefully, improvement. People will express their opinions and separate the good from the bad . . .
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#14 Post by microcosmos » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:59 am

linuxusr wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:41 am
My idea of badges was nothing more than to indicate financial support in a way that's more obvious than it is now, to encourage others.
I can see the rationale but I think it might not be completely unbiased to recognise only those who support the forum financially. There are many forum members who devote a lot of their intangible time and energy sharing their valuable experiences and advice (I have learnt a lot from you - thank you), and I feel they add as much as or even more value than dollars and cents to the forum. I am assuming that not all of them also contribute financially.
linuxusr wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:29 am
Such a bade confers not one iota of privilege and one can opt to remain anonymous and not show any badge
Giving the option of remaining anonymous could also have unintended side-effects because if one shows his/her badge under such an optional system, some may perceive it as showing off - it's just human nature. To prevent these things from creeping into the forum I would support keeping the forum exactly as it is, where everyone can freely contribute, learn and make friends without any potential prejudice.

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#15 Post by MichaelG. » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:39 am

microcosmos wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:59 am
… I would support keeping the forum exactly as it is, where everyone can freely contribute, learn and make friends without any potential prejudice.
Amen to that.

MichaelG.
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#16 Post by Roldorf » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:32 am

What?
We are expected to pay for the privilege of imparting knowledge to other members of the forum?
I don't think so.
The forum would loose those members I am sure.
Unfortunately I can not be counted amongst those erudite members who help the more helpless members overcome their problems or answer question about what we observe under the 'Lupe'. Still I would be one of the ones who left the forum.
I refuse to pay for any website.
I don't even allow advertising to 'Pop up' and use an add blocker. If a site asks to me turn my add blocker off I don't 'visit' any more.
So, that's my rant out of the way. Hopefully we can continue to impart our 'little' or 'large' contributions to the many members and visitors who watch the forum.
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#17 Post by linuxusr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:59 pm

@mrsonchus, @charlie g, @PeteM, @smollerthings, @BramHuntingNematodes, @MicroBob, @MichaelG, @microcosmos, @Roldorf


OP: The jury was out and now the jury is in:


a. There is no perceived need to purchase copyrighted texts.

b. Introducing badges to indicate Patreon support is a bad idea that could introduce ill feelings between members and compromise the cooperation that exists.

c. This wouldn't be the first time that a discussion of money led to conflict :roll:
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#18 Post by smollerthings » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:08 pm

Money can lead to passionate conversations. Second only to those about the quality of Chinese made microscopes or lack thereof :D :D :D

This is a message for Microbehunter. If there is any need for additional funding for server capacity or improvement projects, I am sure there are willing members here to chip in or help. Just do a voluntary funding bar à la Wikipedia for example.

Cheers everyone.

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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#19 Post by linuxusr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:50 pm

smollerthings wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:08 pm
Money can lead to passionate conversations. Second only to those about the quality of Chinese made microscopes or lack thereof :D :D :D

This is a message for Microbehunter. If there is any need for additional funding for server capacity or improvement projects, I am sure there are willing members here to chip in or help. Just do a voluntary funding bar à la Wikipedia for example.

Cheers everyone.
Second that. And cheers.
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Re: Brainstorm: Two Intersecting Challenges

#20 Post by mrsonchus » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:01 pm

An excellent idea - if extra funding is needed, just ask for voluntary contributions, with some idea of what would be an appropriate amount. I'm certain that plenty of members would be more than happy to contribute (anonymously to other members for certain) on this basis - no complications and inevitable unrest involved.
John B

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