Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

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Milou
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#1 Post by Milou » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:19 am

Hello
In order to continue the previous thread on phototubes "without" intermediate optics, but more restricted to Wil / leica phototubes, I give here information about my equipment and projects to get good (or at least better than up to now!) pictures

Up to now, I've used a Wild M7a, and now a Wild M8, with a Wild phototube (old model : 30 mm inside diameter, see picture) with a 15x normal eyepiece on top of this tube then the black metal adapter where is screwed a coolpix4500
But I've also the other larger Wild phototube (38 mm diameter )

P1090744.resized1.JPG
P1090744.resized1.JPG (86.35 KiB) Viewed 1245 times
Sorry for bent picture, but I couldn't rotate it here :roll:

I use this equipment especially for insect dissections and for study of their genitalia (genital organs), used in taxonomy
After dissection, I put them on a slide under cover glass, for pictures used as records
These pictures are just used to exchange et classify these specimens, they are not really good ones from a photographer point of view ;) ...
MG21113 Z filip 18 juil 1970.jpg
MG21113 Z filip 18 juil 1970.jpg (35.74 KiB) Viewed 1245 times
Zygaena filipendulae (a burnet moth) genitalia, taken with the M7a (stacking of about 4-5 pictures) ; there are chromatic aberrations, but with the M8 I'll make a system to translate the objective in order to limit this (but that's another topic !)


That why I would like to improve them and reading about setups without eyepieces gave me idea to also try this way wich also is very cheap comparing with Wild projectives prices :o
I've a 4/3 camera (GX80) to try taking pictures without eyepiece.

That's why I've asked more details about a Wild setup seen on the previous thread
Thank for your help....
Last edited by Milou on Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Greg Howald
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#2 Post by Greg Howald » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:14 pm

1. I admit I am totally unfamiliar with your equipment.
2. The work you are doing seems truly intricate.
3. Images are very good.
4. You might improve image quality a bit by placing an iris diaphragm directly under the objectives to increase contrast. Try it. It may be the only additional thing you need to increase quality.
5. You are doing good work. Very impressive.
Greg

Milou
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#3 Post by Milou » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:27 pm

Thank you for compliment Greg :oops:
But I wonder if an additional diaphragm under this objective would be possible, as these pictures already need a lot of light .....
Furthermore diaphragm in the phototube is already rather closed!
And at which kind of iris do you think, as M8 objective is rather large!

jfiresto
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#4 Post by jfiresto » Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:12 pm

It is probably easiest to mount your GX80 on your 38mm photo tube. What is Wild photo tube part number?

To mount the camera, you will need two items.

First, a 1X (optic-less) ISO 38mm to c-mount adapter. My favorite is the Leitz 543345, which Wild also sold under their name and own part number. The 543345s are not hard to buy used -- in either Europe or North America -- although you may have to patient if you want to buy one at a good price. Another possibility is a Diagnostic Instruments D10NLC, which tends to be less expensive, but seems to be a North American item. If you still need something, I have an extra that I bought pretty cheap and could sell to you at my total cost. Both parts are weighty stainless steel.

Second, you will need a c-mount to micro four thirds thread adapter. There are many possibilities, especially if you will leave the camera on the microscope. I like to do that as it reduces the dust that gets inside the microscope and how often I must clean the optics. My brother has had good luck buying cheap adapters from China.

The thread adapter must extend the c-mount flange 1.72mm into the camera to land the focused exit image on the camera sensor. Thus you want the well that the c-mount fits into, to have as large a diameter as possible so that the adapter screws all the way on. You are after a pretty flat adapter for the above ISO 38mm adapters, with a 37--38mm diameter well [no, you want more by having steps (see post #7)], or somewhat less, IIRC, for the 543345. One part that may not fully screw on is the metabones Cmount to Micro Four Thirds adapter: it has some meant-to-be-helpful finger flanges that protrude toward the c-mount and may interfere.

The c-mount will cause a little vignetting, perhaps a couple percent of the total image area, at the corners of a 4:3 aspect, micro four third sensor. I will post some images that show that, and also the deterioration you can expect, away from the center, if you remove the c-mount and image the full 38mm photo port image.

I am a bit tired from some late but fruitful work last night, and hope the above makes sense!
Last edited by jfiresto on Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-John

Milou
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#5 Post by Milou » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:30 pm

Thank you for your detailed answer with adapter references

Yes I've seen several Leitz 543345 ones to sell but rather expensive, above 100 euros...........
For you extra Leitz 543345 you could sell, I pm you

Another solution would be to order such an adapter to somebody making itself adapters, like Rafcamera, for rather low prices and with any measurements (I've already ordered different models very well made for about 30 euros !

the c-mount to micro four thirds thread adapter seems much cheaper and there are plenty to sell and is much cheaper!

I'll check all this adapters.....

Scarodactyl
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#6 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:25 pm

I don't know if there's a readily-available m4/3 to m42 adapter, but 38mm OD to m42 threaded adapters are not hard to get.
Best of all, of course, is to have a friend with a 3d printer (or just, a 3d printer). The lens mount is a bit more annoying, but printing OD and thread adapters is really straightforward, fast and cheap.

jfiresto
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#7 Post by jfiresto » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:50 pm

I think the microscopy gods have been smiling on me and perhaps making things a little easier than I deserve.

I found another c-mount to micro four thirds adapter than will not fully screw on to the Diagnostic Instruments D10NLC, the Fotodiox C-MFT. Its problem is that the wall that rings the c-mount flange, rises in a single, ca. 3mm step and hits the sloped shoulders of the D10NLC before they have had a chance to drop further away from the flange plane.

The c-mount to micro four thirds adapters I have tried, until today, try harder to accept larger diameter lenses, and have all taken a small intermediate step that gives enough slope to clear the sloped shoulders of the D10NLC, as in this example:

c-to-m4_3_adapter.jpg
c-to-m4_3_adapter.jpg (22.59 KiB) Viewed 1086 times

EDIT: Phooey. I just received and tried a similar looking adapter from China that unfortunately stops ca. 1mm short of fulling spinning down on a D10NLC. I will add to an order, another style that looks like one of the adapters I have that does fully spin down.
Last edited by jfiresto on Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
-John

Milou
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#8 Post by Milou » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:51 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:25 pm
I don't know if there's a readily-available m4/3 to m42 adapter, but 38mm OD to m42 threaded adapters are not hard to get.
Best of all, of course, is to have a friend with a 3d printer (or just, a 3d printer). The lens mount is a bit more annoying, but printing OD and thread adapters is really straightforward, fast and cheap.
I think m4/3 to m42 adapters are not flat but rather large, at least all ones I've seen and therefore camera would be too high on the tube....But perhaps flat ones could be found!
But you're right, perhaps with 38 mm one, it could be better to avoid the very small diameter of the c-mount !

Thank you John for details about the c-mount- 4/3 adapter and their size limits/ constraints with the other bottom adapter

Perhaps therefore, to order a special adapter with right "shoulders" and screw length, and also even another screw diameter (38 mm? if it possible to get a 38 mm-4/3 one adapter!) could be the best solution?

Another solution could be to get a simple 4/3 adapter with a flat side and then to fix it on top of 2 sliding tubes (plastic or metal), the exterior one being just inserted in the Wild phototube. Then the inside one could be adjusted at a correct high for picture .....

For them who have no 3D printer........

jfiresto
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#9 Post by jfiresto » Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:12 pm

I found another micro four thirds to c-mount adapter that fully spins on to a D10NLC 38mm ISO camera port adapter, the Quenox C-m4/3:
quenox C-m4_3 adapter.jpg
quenox C-m4_3 adapter.jpg (85.81 KiB) Viewed 938 times
Its two 1.5–1.6mm steps at r=18.9 and r=20mm are both crucial: deleting either – which thankfully Quenox did not do – would save money but also crash the adapter against the sloped shoulder of the D10NLC. The rim of the Quenox adapter starts at r=25mm and clears the D10NLC by 0.8mm.

I measured 9.6mm from the camera flange to the ISO port flange when the micro four thirds adapter is on the D10NLC. A drawing for Nikon's adapter from this thread places the ISO port image 28.996mm above the flange:
nikon_c-mount_38mm_adapter_.jpg
nikon_c-mount_38mm_adapter_.jpg (13.15 KiB) Viewed 938 times
28.996 - 9.6mm puts the image 19.4mm above the camera flange and slightly past the 19.25mm micro four thirds flange focal distance. I expect the two combined adapters will be parafocal, but will confirm that.
-John

Milou
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#10 Post by Milou » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:05 pm

Thank you John for details about your adapters.

But has your D10NLC the same measurements as the Nikon one (Nikon flange out is 15.5mm according to the scheme)?

In fact it would be necessary to have a 0.15 mm shorter flange out in order to get exactly the 19.25mm micro four thirds flange focal distance!
Therefore an adapter (more or less similar to your D10NLC) with a 14.85 mm flange out would do with your C-M4/3

I'll try to order an adapter for T2 instead of a c-mount like the D10NLC, to put in the Wild phototube and above an adapter T2 - M4/3
I've only to determine the best T2 screw height according to the one of a rather thin T2 - M4/3 adapter in order to get this 19.25mm micro four thirds flange focal distance!

jfiresto
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#11 Post by jfiresto » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:16 pm

Hi Michel. I am still trying to understand how the 38mm ISO port -> T2, T2 -> µ4/3rds pair is supposed to work. A T-mount is supposed to have a 55mm flange focal distance. If I make no mistake, the first adapter will need a relay lens because the ISO port has 26mm shorter focal distance. Would a good lens be expensive?

I am pretty sure the D10NLC + Quenox combination will be parfocal. As the Quenox adapter was only 9 euros, do you want to try both ways, or hold the D10NLC+Quenox in reserve as a Plan B?
-John

Milou
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#12 Post by Milou » Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:35 pm

Hi John,

I'm not very brilliant at optics :)
Therefore I wasn't aware about this large difference in flange focal distances between C_mount and a T2 one......

I ned to study this more deeply to go on with larger mounts than the C one!

Ok therefore thank's for your D10NLC+Quenox as It will already allow me to try this setup :)
I pm you about that

Scarodactyl
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#13 Post by Scarodactyl » Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:37 am

T2 is a theead standard, m42x0.75. Mechanical adapters are available to attach it to most camera mounts without any compensation for flange focal istance, on the assumption that you are using it to retrofit older optics or with whatever length extension tubes you want. I didn't see any for m4/3 in this style though in my brief search.

Milou
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#14 Post by Milou » Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:53 am

Thank's for your comment about T2 Scarodactyl.

Yes this T2 - M4/3 adapter is not common, but I've at least found one which is rather thin:
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/384184564749

Generally they have more or less 2.5 cm height, therefore not very adapted for use on top of a phototube
Last edited by Milou on Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jfiresto
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#15 Post by jfiresto » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:28 pm

This is getting silly. I finally had a chance to try the above D10NLC and Quenox adapter combination, I wrote about earlier, with a micro four thirds camera. Specifically, I tried the following stackup:
  • A Wild M7S in macroscope mode
  • A Wild 180570 photo tube
  • A D10NLC, ISO 38 to c-mount adapter
  • A Quenox C-M4/3, c-mount to micro four thirds adapter
  • A Panasonic DMC-GX85 (GX80).
The camera, just like that, was nearly parfocal. So, I slightly raised and reclamped the D10NLC to make it so, and measured the gap: slightly more than 0.15mm - the shimming I had measured and calculated above. Either the microscopy gods continue to smile on me, or old Wild microscopes just work.

Here are a pair of images at minimum and maximum zoom (0.6X and 3.1X). You can click on an image to fetch the full-sized, 4–5 Mbyte JPEG.

Image

Image

I may have lightly bumped the target between exposures.

Ohhhh, yes. I see much less vignetting.
-John

Milou
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#16 Post by Milou » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:10 pm

Hello John,

Thank you for your pictures and details about your setup.
In fact the result is very good indeed!

If furthermore almost no more vignetting, it's really great......

Hope to also try this setup (when you tell me about sending your item !) :-)

Milou
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#17 Post by Milou » Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:51 pm

at least I could try the setup with D10NLC and Quenox adapter combination, already presented by John (thank's again ;) ).

To compare with my previous setup, I put 2 Wild photo tubes on my M8 like this :
P1090839.resized.JPG
P1090839.resized.JPG (102.38 KiB) Viewed 346 times
Sorry I couldn't put it upright!

Here pictures from this first test made with a Coolpîx4500 (with olympus eyepiece 15x) and a GX80 body, without any eyepiece in its photo tube


GX80 pictures are made with electronic shutter, 10' timer to avoid vibrations, at 1/60' and the Wild tube shutter around 3 or 4 (between half ans 2/3 closed)
Lighting is diascopic (LED under the mobile stage) and episcopic (KL1500), sometimes also an Olympus halogen ring light was used (but its light colour is rather yellow)
Focal is put in the GX80 menu to 35 mm (no yet test other ones...)

Probably lighting and GX80 parameters could be still improved, especially water balance (not yet tried all settings to adjust white!)
M8 magnification is higher for GX80 pictures than with Coolpix ones

GX80 pictures:
P1020767.resized.JPG
P1020767.resized.JPG (78.71 KiB) Viewed 346 times
Adscita statices(Linnaeus, 1758) (Zygaenidae) female genitalia just put on a slide in water (no cover slide).
The diagnostic element for this species is: a ductus bursa (canal between bilobate female genital chambe and copulatory orifice) not smooth but with protuberances

P1020775.resized.JPG
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The same slide with higher M8 magnification (sorry no scale put in pictures!)


Coolpix same slide pictures:
DSCN6558.resized.JPG
DSCN6558.resized.JPG (72.39 KiB) Viewed 346 times
The same slide with higher M8 magnification (sorry no scale put in the picture!)
DSCN6566.resized.JPG
DSCN6566.resized.JPG (69.23 KiB) Viewed 346 times

Comparing these pictures in full size shows a higher resolution for GX80 ones
But for coolpix ones, it must be said that focusing is rather hard as its screen is very small and with a low definition....

But at least it's shown here quite good results for GX80 pictures with "old" binocular microscopes and a very low cost setup (without outrageous costly photo eyepiece and lot of different tubes, as for reflex cameras!)

Sure, pictures with a much higher resolution and/or esthetic qualities could be done, but using other equipments (macroscope, microscope aso.) :mrgreen:

But for archives photos made after dissections and entomological microscopic preparations, it's well adapted for me ;)

Milou
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:31 pm

Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#18 Post by Milou » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:46 pm

In fact vignette for GX80 pictures results from Wild tubes stacking (see upper setup picture) and also I've forgotten to open again coolpix tube diaphragm when using the GX80 one :mrgreen:

Below other shots of a small coin, this time just with one Wild Tube and the GX80 :
At lowest, medium and highest magnification (50x) and with closed Wild tube diaphragm (1)
Lighting with just 2 lateral KL150 halogen lights (speed between 1/10' and 1/100' and 400 and 800 iso)
P1020811.resized.JPG
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P1020821.resized.resized.JPG
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P1020824.resized.JPG
P1020824.resized.JPG (110.36 KiB) Viewed 267 times


Almost no more vignetting here, comparing with upper genitalia pictures.....

Scarodactyl
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Re: Wild phototubes and their use with/ without eyepiece

#19 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:00 pm

There really should not be any vignetting at this field number, but that is definitely an improvement.

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