Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

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dtrinh
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Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#1 Post by dtrinh » Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:32 pm

Hi everyone,
I would like to ask if anyone here has used both electronic shutter and mechanical shutter of a camera to take photos from a microscope (at any magnification), and if yes, was there any significant improvement in image quality?
Thank you very much!
Last edited by dtrinh on Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jfiresto
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#2 Post by jfiresto » Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:37 pm

What microscope, and what magnification, specimen to sensor?
-John

dtrinh
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#3 Post by dtrinh » Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:45 pm

I put the question in a different way.
Any experience with the electronic shutter on a microscope is appreciated.
Thanks!

Dubious
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#4 Post by Dubious » Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:47 pm

Not sure how much of a problem it is in microphotography, but electronic shutters can give a "rolling shutter" effect that is not good with moving subjects:

https://www.jmpeltier.com/disadvantages ... c-shutter/

I am not familiar with the A5000, but if it has “Electronic First Shutter Curtain” (EFSC), I doubt a fully electronic shutter would give better results.

https://photographylife.com/what-is-ele ... in-shutter

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imkap
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#5 Post by imkap » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:01 pm

If you want to do a burst you might benefit with the electronic shutter, otherwise I don't see a reason why would it be better.
And yes, 'rolling shutter' effect might be a problem.
I'll sure try it now that you have mentioned it...

dtrinh
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#6 Post by dtrinh » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:15 pm

When researching the problem of electronic vs mechanical shutter on microscopic images, I found this post:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4602414

in which a person showed his photos captured with mechanical shutter vs. extracted from a video (no shutter involved):
- with mechanical shutter:
Image

- without shutter:
Image

The image extracted from the video is much better. Of course the difference in image quality also depends on the weight of the microscope for example, but the vibration caused by the mechanical shutter presents a real problem with microscopic imaging.

jfiresto
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#7 Post by jfiresto » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:38 pm

The Panasonic GF5 that took the first picture has no EFCS to reduce its shutter shock.
-John

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imkap
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#8 Post by imkap » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:47 pm

I assumed that we are talking about the mechanical shutter with EFCS too.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#9 Post by Scarodactyl » Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:20 pm

Any camera with shutter shake during the shot is not suitable for microscopy. There are elaborate workarounds for using a flash and/or isolating the camera to minimize the impact but they're pointless when efcs exists as an option.

dtrinh
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#10 Post by dtrinh » Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:25 pm

OK the mirror slap at the beginning of DSLR cameras is the major cause of shutter shock.
Many cameras (with mirrors) offer EFCS which raises the mirrors already before taking any photo. But, at the end there is still a mechnical shutter to end the exposure.
If we compare EFCS cameras (still having the mechanical shutter at the end) vs. complete electronic shutter, would there be any differences in image sharpness (on a microscope)?

Dubious
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#11 Post by Dubious » Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:50 pm

dtrinh wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:25 pm
OK the mirror slap at the beginning of DSLR cameras is the major cause of shutter shock.
Many cameras (with mirrors) offer EFCS which raises the mirrors already before taking any photo. But, at the end there is still a mechnical shutter to end the exposure.
If we compare EFCS cameras (still having the mechanical shutter at the end) vs. complete electronic shutter, would there be any differences in image sharpness (on a microscope)?
Even in a mirrorless camera, you still can have shutter shock (mirror slap and shutter shock are separate things). If EFCS is done right in the camera with mechanical shutter, I would think it would produce the superior result (since no rolling shutter effect); but reality trumps theory, so you would need to do some tests using the actual cameras. In time, electronic shutters should become "fast" enough that there is no rolling shutter effect. Even today, I'm not sure that rolling shutter effect is a practical problem in microscopy--I haven't noticed it with a 5MP USB camera I sometimes use which, now that I think about it, definitely uses an electronic shutter.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#12 Post by Scarodactyl » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:11 pm

dtrinh wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:25 pm
OK the mirror slap at the beginning of DSLR cameras is the major cause of shutter shock.
Many cameras (with mirrors) offer EFCS which raises the mirrors already before taking any photo. But, at the end there is still a mechnical shutter to end the exposure.
If we compare EFCS cameras (still having the mechanical shutter at the end) vs. complete electronic shutter, would there be any differences in image sharpness (on a microscope)?
With efcs I believe it stops collecting before the shutter closes. There is significant visible shake at the end of the exposure with my camera which does not show up in photos.
I have shot with a 100x/0.9 dry and 60x/1.4 oil objective and not experienced any directional blurring with efcs, if anything would show it that would.

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imkap
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#13 Post by imkap » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:52 pm

I just checked and don't see any rolling shutter effect problems, as far are the lines on the image are concerned. I checked with halogen lighting, can't test LED currently. Maybe fast moving subjects might be problematic, not sure...

I don't think mechanically there are any problems if EFSC is ON. I didn't see any apparent difference in images.
Electronic shutter is a nice feature to have on your camera, but not so much for microscopy I'd say. I like it when shooting people, concerts etc.

Camera is Sony a7sii

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iconoclastica
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#14 Post by iconoclastica » Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:32 pm

Scarodactyl wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:11 pm
dtrinh wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 9:25 pm
OK the mirror slap at the beginning of DSLR cameras is the major cause of shutter shock.
Many cameras (with mirrors) offer EFCS which raises the mirrors already before taking any photo. But, at the end there is still a mechnical shutter to end the exposure.
If we compare EFCS cameras (still having the mechanical shutter at the end) vs. complete electronic shutter, would there be any differences in image sharpness (on a microscope)?
With efcs I believe it stops collecting before the shutter closes. There is significant visible shake at the end of the exposure with my camera which does not show up in photos.
I have shot with a 100x/0.9 dry and 60x/1.4 oil objective and not experienced any directional blurring with efcs, if anything would show it that would.
I had been wondering about that for quite some time and I am very glad this discussion cleared that up! Just make a long exposure with EFCS and at once it becomes clear that there's only a tiny sound at the beginning and then the 'significant visible shake' at the end of the exposure.
I also work almost daily at 100x and I see no less detail or sharpness in the photos than by direct viewing. My microscope is not placed upon a slab, quite the contrary: it's floating in the air suspended by springs...

EYE C U
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#15 Post by EYE C U » Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:02 pm

for the guys that don't know shutter systems https://youtu.be/4lHlzRw_Oek

sreynolds
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#16 Post by sreynolds » Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:07 pm

Finding a camera with EFCS - it can be hard to tell even from the camera documentation if full electronic shutter or EFCS is available for shooting without a lens i.e. direct projection. My Canon M200 has an electronic shutter, but it only functions in 'Quiet' mode, which prevents shutter release without a lens, even with the camera set to allow shutter without lens. Looking to replace the Canon M200, does the Olympus Pen E-PL10 EFCS work without a lens?
Steve

jfiresto
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#17 Post by jfiresto » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:55 pm

I can confirm the anti-shock option on the E-PL1, E-PL3, E-PL7 and E-PL8 all work with a stereo microscope acting as a somewhat slow, manually focused lens. The E-PL7 was the first to have focus peaking (from the E-M1) to help with that. The E-PL9 and E-PL10 manuals no longer mention anti-shock which likely means it is always on when you choose a mechanical rather than electronic shutter. An omnibus Pen/OMD timeline seems to support the idea.
Last edited by jfiresto on Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-John

Dubious
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#18 Post by Dubious » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:01 pm

sreynolds wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:07 pm
Finding a camera with EFCS - it can be hard to tell even from the camera documentation if full electronic shutter or EFCS is available for shooting without a lens i.e. direct projection. My Canon M200 has an electronic shutter, but it only functions in 'Quiet' mode, which prevents shutter release without a lens, even with the camera set to allow shutter without lens. Looking to replace the Canon M200, does the Olympus Pen E-PL10 EFCS work without a lens?
EFCS is a topic not covered very well by manuals, if at all. I have two Canon cameras and both work with EFCS without a lens, but it was necessary to do some googling and experimentation to find the right menu settings. Note that you need only EFCS (electronic first curtain) and not full electronic shutter (if the M200 is capable of both). There is an interesting discussion on this subject at https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4486966:

"In lieu of decent documentation in the manual, the easiest check is with the camera in hand. Set a few seconds long manual shutter speed and take a picture without a lens attached. On a mirrorless camera, you will see one of three things happen upon pressing the shutter release;

The shutter immediately closes, then opens for the few seconds set by your shutter speed, then closes again to finish the exposure, and finally opens again to restore live view. This is a mechanical only shutter operation.
The shutter stays open for the few seconds set by the shutter speed, then closes to finish the exposure and finally opens again to restore live view. This is EFCS.
The shutter remains open for the entire time. This is "silent" electronic shutter.
Regarding the M cameras specifically, all M cameras except for the M6 II use EFCS as their primary shooting mode. The option for a mechanical only shutter does not even exist on the other M models. The M50 and M6 II are the only two with the option to use a silent electronic shutter mode, but both impose various limitations on this function."

sreynolds
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Re: Full electronic shutter vs. normal shutter

#19 Post by sreynolds » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:46 pm

Dubious wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:01 pm
Regarding the M cameras specifically, all M cameras except for the M6 II use EFCS as their primary shooting mode.
I tested my M200 as you describe, and it has EFCS. Knowing that is really helpful. Thanks. It also offers a 'Quiet' mode, which I suppose is full electronic shutter, but I can't test that without a lens mounted.
Steve

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