Nikon E400 w. trinocular head - What camera solution?

[erikwetterskog]

Hi there,

After a bit of a break from the microscope hobby, I recently acquired a more modern (than my previous S-Ke) Nikon microscope, a E400 with a trinocular head, a 4x and 10x, 40x, 100x Plan phase contrast objectives. I also added a bargain 20x Plan APO, it seemed like a sensible investment. The microscope is barely used and came with the "F eyepiece tube" (according to the manual). Now, the $1000 question (I hope it cost less though) is how do I connect a camera to this adapter. I tried to search the forums and to google around, but I came up pretty dry. (I really hope I'm not wasting your time here.)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GD9aHI ... sp=sharing

I have the following two cameras at my disposal:

Canon 5Ds (50 mPix, Canon EF-mount, full frame sensor)
Omax (8 mPix, c-mount, 1/2.5" sensor) - 0.5x reduction lens (diameter 23.2 mm) of unknown quality was included + adapter to 30-30.5 mm

I understand that I need some type of adapter in each case. For the OMAX camera, I found these:

"Standard Microscope camera C mount adapter for Nikon trinocular microscope use" - make "Risingcam" with various reduction lenses

as well as an adapter with what I guess lack an intermediate lens:

"Nikon TRINOCULAR MICROSCOPE PHOTOTUBE C-MOUNT ADAPTER Eclipse SMZ Leica, Leitz"


I know I could in principle mount the Omax camera directly at the eyepiece with one of the supplied metal ring adapters, but for obvious reasons I would like to use the trinocular port. If equally simple, perhaps I would prefer to use the DSRL. I'm also assuming that there would be some sort of original legit Nikon solution for this but pricey. My goal is to maximize the image quality. I don't want to throw away sharpness, flatness introduce optical aberrations with a shoddy reduction lens. With the DSRL, and the huge pixel count I think I'm quite fine with "wasting" a large chunk of the pixels, if needed.

I hope I included sufficient amount of details, otherwise let me know.

(I also found this: https://www.lmscope.com/en/Nikon_eclips ... er_en.html, but it costs more than I paid for the microscope).

[Scarodactyl]

Here's a quick diagram posted on photomacrography:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/u ... noc2_2.jpg

What you need is the y-tv mount (this attaches to the top of the head and terminates in a 38mm hole. I don't know if the tube on your scope is the correct one). Then a 38mm OD V-T trinocular adapter that holds a photo eyepiece (they come jn both 23.2mm and 30mm sizes) and an appropriately sized pli 2.5x photo eyepiece to go in it for a full frame camera (a finite pl 2.5x might work too). I'd recommend that over the omax, but adapting the omax is also easy, you just need a 38mm OD reducing lens. The ones linked might work. I have used a diagnostic instruments 0.63x i. this slot snd it worked great, though it isn't super cheap.

[apochronaut]

There are two primary and separate actions required to mount a camera and make it function. These two often get muddled together as though they are like conjoined twins. They are related but not that closely. Each needs to be thought through independently and then fused in a third action, which is the refinement of the system.
It all takes place as known procedures or experimental procedures. Mostly, unless someone comes along that has tread this path before you are in the experimental zone, although sometimes extrapolations ftom other similar systems can often be utilized.

Action one, which is the physical attachment process has you in a grey area of having some known components but not all of them. Since the optical corrections of your system need to be the same in the camera tube as in the viewing body, you need to consider measuring the distance from the telan lens to the sensor, more or less the same as it is between the telan lens and the eye , if you intend on using an eyepiece for a photo optic and your sensor is full frame. So your adapters to the camera bayonet need to take that into account; that there be a mounting location for an eyepiece at that roughly correct location in the tube. If you do not use an eyepiece or your sensor size is not full frame, your measurement to the optic and sensor will need adjustment. Generally, lower magnification optics require more projection to cover a larger sensor and smaller sensors require less projection.

Action two is selecting the optic. This will be different for each of the two cameras. Since this is a system where the eyepiece corrections are supposed to be neutral, you can also likely use direct projection. This would still entail positioning each camera in a different location and you may find that using a reduction lens for one and no lens for the other works best.

There is a third action , which is refinement of the system and this is where the two primary processes are unified. If you have an entirely d.i.y. set up, it helps to install a helical focuser in the telan lens to photo optic section and another in the photo optic to sensor section. I use a 25-55mm version so there is lots of expansion and contraction available. You install them as though they are 40mm sections in the tube . They will help get your distances refined and can be replaced in future with more rigid sections or shorter helical sections.

Sort of a photo tube d.i.y. primer . Hopefully there are more concrete solutions . The photomicrography site has lots of info.

[PeteM]

Your full frame Canon should give the best results.

Direct projection, as suggested above, is easiest. You just need to find or make up a short mechanical fitting with a Canon mount on one end and fit it into the trinocular head at the other. I can take a picture later of one, but for a full-frame Nikon camera. Direct projection will get you about the full diameter of the field of view within the square frame of the camera. You won't miss much, if anything, but will have some unused pixels (not a problem given the abundance of those with your 5D).

Using a photo relay lens is the second option - and as stated above 2.5x would be the right magnification for a full frame camera. Nikon makes a different 2.5x for their infinity scopes - it is a "PLI 2.5x " with the "I" apparently for infinity. I haven't yet tried this option, but imagine you'd crop some of the field of view but get more of the rectangular camera field filled.

I'm not aware of any significant image quality difference, but others may know more. In many systems the photo relay lens is needed to correct for chromatic aberrations and sometimes field flatness, etc. Nikon claims to handle most all of that within their CFI objectives and tube lens. Direct projection avoids some extra glass surfaces to possibly rob a bit of contrast. A photo relay lens might possibly add some tiny correction I'm unaware of.

[PeteM]

To add, the adapter you show with your microscope (long tube) is mean for a photo relay lens. You'd need that PLI 2.5x and another piece to attach the camera above the tube with the photo relay lens inserted. There were a few versions of these. Can I assume yours is empty of optics inside?

The Ebay adapters are all for smaller sensors and (with the one T-mount exception) c-mount cameras.

[erikwetterskog]

Hello, according to the last link the adapter in my picture is called a Nikon V-T tube and does not any optics.

[Scarodactyl]

I just checked and I noticed I have one of these tubes on hand (the tall one on your scope I mean). It is different from the diagram I linked, basically combining the y-tv and v-t in that diagram into one tube. It looks to have a 30mm eyepiece hole in the top plus a 42mm ID. Check yours to see if that's the case.
It looks like it's held onto the head with a dovetail, so nondestructively removing it to do direct projection would be possible. I wouldn't recommend it though--the widest specced coverage of Nikon cfi infinity objectives is about 25mm and the edges may already be looking a bit weak at that field number. Direct projection onto aps-c will get all of the best part of the image and probably weak corners, onto full frame you'd have to do a lot of cropping. Then again, getting a 30mm 2.5x pli eyepiece may be expensive though it would be well matched.

[PeteM]

Here's a photo of the Nikon camera mount for a Nikon infinity head similar to yours. It was made by taking a generic Nikon F mount adapter, cutting it to length, and turning the OD down to fit inside the head (just under 40mm diameter). I've pulled it out of the head to see the turned-down area. This is for direct projection. The head is the type that provides an erect image. As you can see, it's fairly short. If you find something similar online with a T-mount (42mm) or a direct Canon mount, it should work. Otherwise, perhaps find a friend with a lathe. You may have to sneak up on the exact length to get it parfocal; with any final adjustments through the diopter adjustments.

NikonE600cameraMount.jpg (136.52 KiB) Viewed 6369 times

As an aside, this is a spare E600 DIC microscope (spectacular DIC at 20x, 40x, and 50x oil, and decent DIC at 10x with the C-CU top lens down). Plan Apo, Plan Fluor etc. with several prisms, polarizer and analyzer, DIC turret, C-CU condenser, etc. It will be for sale one of these days -- either the multiple DIC bits to upgrade a scope or the entire scope. And priced well below what's commonly available on Ebay.

[erikwetterskog]

I just checked and I noticed I have one of these tubes on hand (the tall one on your scope I mean). It is different from the diagram I linked, basically combining the y-tv and v-t in that diagram into one tube. It looks to have a 30mm eyepiece hole in the top plus a 42mm ID. Check yours to see if that's the case.
It looks like it's held onto the head with a dovetail, so nondestructively removing it to do direct projection would be possible. I wouldn't recommend it though--the widest specced coverage of Nikon cfi infinity objectives is about 25mm and the edges may already be looking a bit weak at that field number. Direct projection onto aps-c will get all of the best part of the image and probably weak corners, onto full frame you'd have to do a lot of cropping. Then again, getting a 30mm 2.5x pli eyepiece may be expensive though it would be well matched.

First, thanks for all your help.

Image of the "Nikon Y-T tube"

Ok, so I checked the dimensions of the tube. The ID of the Nikon Y-T tube that I have is about 45 mm, and there is an inner recess, I guess where the relay lens is going with an ID of what I can estimate to 30 mm. I checked the eBay, and it seems plausible that I would find a "2.5x pli" in the range of 100-150 USD, I'm willing to spend as much. I'm just guessing now, but the photo relay lens sits fully inside the phototube or is sticking out? I guess I need a second adapter/tube to mount the camera either onto the "Y-T" phototube or onto the relay lens (if it's sticking out)?

What kind of adapter am I looking for here? I'm assuming there was an original solution for Nikons 1990's analog film SLRs? I'm guessing I also need something adjustable to nail the correct focus on the sensor. (The flange distance I guess varies with all different types of SLRs).

Sorry for all the basic questions, but even with a lot of experience in the subject of cameras... this is pretty difficult materia.

EDIT: I also understood now that the "38 mm" diameter, is the diameter of the dovetail connection directly on top of the trinocular head. So an adapter like this 38 mm adapter to c-mount goes directly on top of the trino-head.

EDIT 2: I also found a list of flange distances for different camera mounts (link), so the EOS/EF mount is shorter than the Nikon F flange distance, so if there is a solution for Nikon or M42 or something with a longer flange distance, then there is an adapter that works?

[Scarodactyl]

Good, this will be easy.
Thr inner diameter I'm referring to is hard to measure with calipers, since it includes the little side fins that stick in. Your camera needs to sit a ways above the photo eyepiece. What you need is a mechanical adapter that is 42mm OD on one end, has the right amount of empty space above and threads you can adapt your camera to at the other. There are a few options out there, but I'd suggest you get this one by Diagnostic Instruments https://www.ebay.com/itm/184362415881
These are well made and work.

[MicroscopeConsultant]

In order to connect a Microscopy Camera to a Nikon Trinocular Head on your E400 you need two things in addition to your microscopy camera:

1) Nikon TV Tube - Nikon Part # MBB73550
2) C-Mount with Relay Lens

You will want to size the relay lens in the C-mount to your camera sensor size correctly. Doing so will reduce some of the inherent magnification and provide you with additional field of view. It will also remove the vignetting.
I would also recommend sourcing an adjustable C-mount so that the image you see through the viewing tube is parfocal with the image on the camera. You do have the option of using a 1x C-mount which is lens-less but your inherent magnification will reduce the field of view on the camera to less than 40%.

In order to connect a SLR camera to a Nikon E400 trinocular head you need 2 things in addition to your SLR camera:

1) F-TV Tube - Nikon Part # MXA29011
2) F-Mount Adapter- Nikon Part #MXA29010

Unfortunately, Nikon Instruments no longer make those two components, but you may be able to search them out on the secondary market.


Source: Nikon Microscope Parts and Accessories

[75RR]

Do you work for Florida Microscopes?

[erikwetterskog]

Hi there,

I fiddled around a bit with the microscope but nothing serious. The c-mount relay lens is clearly not of very good quality, as the image is super-soft in the edges (how difficult can it be to manufacture a decent relay lens??). So now I'm tempted to go with the PA1-12A + 2.5 PLI suggested earlier in the thread. The lens-less solution suggested by Mike sounds great too, but the 5Ds will only shoot movies at 1920x1080 so any live footage will be very downscaled, not an option then.

I found a manufactured copy of the PA1-12A adapter, but not the original (missed that listing), what do you think about the product below?

https://www.ebay.com/c/8020081302

Also, this adapter accepts a "standard" 23.2 mm PLI (ex. 2.5x) photo eyepiece, but I guess this eyepiece is made in two versions 23.2 mm and 30 mm? Are these equivalent (and interchangeable?) if one uses a 23.2 -> 30 mm step up ring?

Thanks for your patience! Would be good to know I get the right stuff before shelling out 250 USD.

[Scarodactyl]

Newhoper's adapters seem well made, I have bought a few basic ones from him before. I would not buy one of his full systems that uses a generic viewing eyepiece as a projective but that isn't what you've linked here.
I suspect the 30mm and 23mm PLI eyepieces sit in the same position, so you could likely get a 23mm lens to sit right in a 30mm setup but not vice versa, since the 30mm couldn't sit in the correct position. If you need a 30mm version of the adapter pictured in your first post I have an extra on hand that I could part with for very cheaply.
If it were my own system I would probably not use the PLI since this head should allow direct projection relatively easily. If you use something like a 1.6x high quality teleconverter you should be able to resize the image to fit full frame and get better field coverage than you would through the PLI eyepiece. On the other hand you'll be getting some of the less-ideally-corrected periphery in your photos.

[erikwetterskog]

I messaged the seller on eBay (asking about the PA1-12A adapter) and got the following reply:

"Yes you can use by itself. I prefer to use one of my ocular lens such as the common 10x WD but other lenses will work.I stay away from the preferred 2.5x lens because the image is smaller. You need to blow up the image file.. with film you get a 35x35 square and with digital FULL FRAME you get 35.8mm x 23.9mm rectangle. both have white sides where the image isn't. using your eyepiece gives you a full round view. . obviously you lose some of the image..
chuck"

I guess what he is saying is that the image circle of the 2,5x PLI with the PA1-12A does not cover the entire field of view? For stills with the 5Ds, I'm not really bothered by the loss at the borders, but it would be annoying for moving footage. My three follow up questions are:

1) I understand that for different purposes, it may be good to have different options at hand (2,5x, 5x)? But 10x (Chucks suggestion) seems like a big jump from the suggested 2,5x. Is he referring to a standard 10x CFI eyepiece? For video in particular, I understand that you may want to get a tight crop. Will the PLI 2.5x correspond roughly (on the camera sensor) to what I see in my 10x/22 eyepeieces?

2) Is there a fundamental difference between photo eyepieces and regular eyepieces? The front element glass surface is larger, but what does mean in reality.

3) I have black enamel Nikon S-Kt with tons of eyepieces, but I guess these are corrected for the Nikon S 160 mm tube length objectives and will introduce abberations if used on a Nikon CFI system? Are the more cheaply available CF photo eyepieces similar in this regard? I guess they were manufactured for the 80's era Nikon scopes, i.e. Labophot, Optiphot with 160 mm tube length?

BTW: Scarodactyl, I may take your offer on the eyepiece, if I can find a suitable solution for the Y-TV adapter (appears difficult to find a camera connection), but I need to understand all my options first. Thanks for letting me know.