solvent information required

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apochronaut
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solvent information required

#1 Post by apochronaut » Tue May 25, 2021 1:21 pm

I obtained a Balplan CCV adapter recently in a joblot of adapters, or at least it fits a Balplan and the telon lens in the bottom conforms roughly to the dimensions of the Balplan telon lens in the head. It also has what appears to be a B & L part # 42-12-46 along with Made in U.S.A. along with .66" T.V. adapter. The Balplan differs from some other designs in that the infinity ray bundle passes straight through the deviating prism without a telan lens intervening. The telan lens being apparently part of the photo tube complex.
The telan lens in the lower tube is good but the camera lens fitted into the upper section had a residue of some sort on it's front or lower surface. Oddly, because it is in the sealed interior , a bottom surface and the top surface of the telan lens only 50mm below it was clean.
The two lens sections easily separate at a dovetail. I tried cleaning off the residue with the standard lens cleaning solution I use but all it did was smear it around and turn a clear uneven residue into a milky smear. Next, I tried I.P.A. No or not much effect. Then 100% ethyl alcohol. No or not much effect. Then pure dish detergent. Kind of smeared it around a bit more, maybe. Then lacquer thinner. No or not much effect. Next in line, muriatic acid which maybe dissolved it to a more translucent state but it still clings. Does anyone have any other ideas?

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#2 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue May 25, 2021 1:46 pm

Muriatic acid is in general ineffective against organic residues.
There are several very powerful solvents but most are not easily available.
I assume that you already tried heptane or octane or petrol ether (they are all almost the same in this context). If not, worth a try.
Next might be acetone. Volatile, leaves a residue, dissolves many adhesives.
Mineral turpentine is even better than paint thinner. "Nitro" paint thinners were used in the past, and they are poisonous. Mineral turpentine smells awful but works. It is volatile as well.
All the above are flammable.

Limonene is an efficient solvent. Have no idea about its hazards.

Finally, the famous high RI liquid, Cinnamon Bark Oil (or Cassia oil) is a powerful solvent. Smelly of cinnamon. It is commercially available.
For any of the above, work in a ventilated space is mandatory, as a minimum.

Scarodactyl
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Re: solvent information required

#3 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue May 25, 2021 4:26 pm

I once got a stereo microscope head with opaque, brown grease smeared on one prism with big fingerprints in it. Alcohol would not touch it, but acetone did the trick. It's almost never the right choice but probably worth a shot.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#4 Post by apochronaut » Tue May 25, 2021 5:50 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 1:46 pm
Muriatic acid is in general ineffective against organic residues.
There are several very powerful solvents but most are not easily available.
I assume that you already tried heptane or octane or petrol ether (they are all almost the same in this context). If not, worth a try.
Next might be acetone. Volatile, leaves a residue, dissolves many adhesives.
Mineral turpentine is even better than paint thinner. "Nitro" paint thinners were used in the past, and they are poisonous. Mineral turpentine smells awful but works. It is volatile as well.
All the above are flammable.

Limonene is an efficient solvent. Have no idea about its hazards.

Finally, the famous high RI liquid, Cinnamon Bark Oil (or Cassia oil) is a powerful solvent. Smelly of cinnamon. It is commercially available.
For any of the above, work in a ventilated space is mandatory, as a minimum.
Thanks for the pointers. I'm a bit mystified by the stuff. There is no grease anywhere near to the lens and it is inside a sealed tube until you release the set screws and separate the dovetsil. , no substance of any kind in fact in there, except glass, aluminum, blacking . No reason for anything to be there, either. The lens appears to be a press fit into the barrel. Pretty thick doublet or a triplet: 14 or 15mm thick.
I thought maybe it might be a slightly alkaline substance but muriatic did little. The thinner I used was not paint thinner. It was lacquer thinner.
Your mention of turpentine though, turned on a light bulb. Perhaps someone was trying to use it as an effects lens; trying to do some soft focus stuff and that is petroleum jelly? I will try turpentine. Not sure I have any.

Scarodactyl. That's a good thought. Acetone should work on P.J. too, I would think but I don't keep it around. I will get some.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#5 Post by apochronaut » Tue May 25, 2021 6:02 pm

I looked it up and if it were petroleum jelly, I.P.A. should have worked .

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#6 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue May 25, 2021 6:43 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:02 pm
I looked it up and if it were petroleum jelly, I.P.A. should have worked .
I am not sure about that. here is Wikipedia:
Petroleum jelly is a mixture of hydrocarbons, with a melting point that depends on the exact proportions. The melting point is typically between 40 and 70 °C (105 and 160 °F).[6][7] It is flammable only when heated to liquid; then the fumes will light, not the liquid itself, so a wick material like leaves, bark, or small twigs is needed to ignite petroleum jelly. It is colorless (or of a pale yellow color when not highly distilled), translucent, and devoid of taste and smell when pure. It does not oxidize on exposure to the air and is not readily acted on by chemical reagents. It is insoluble in water. It is soluble in dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene, diethyl ether, carbon disulfide and turpentine.[1][8]

So let me smear some petroleum jelly on a surface and try some liquids. Not all those in the line above, of course. Be back soon.

Edit: So I placed 1cm long lumps of Petrolatum ointment, each in a glass vial, added ~2ml of turpentine, heptane and IPA, respectively, and closed the vial. Unfortunately, dissolution is slower than I imagined, so must leave it overnight.

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#7 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue May 25, 2021 7:18 pm

BTW, there are other very powerful solvents, not mentioned above (e.g. chloroform), but they are really toxic, being phased out wherever possible, and not really available as consumer products.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#8 Post by apochronaut » Tue May 25, 2021 7:36 pm

Thanks for the lab work. Could be my problem too. I used various solvents with swabs only fairly briefly and ended up altering what was originally there to a milky hard smear. I found an ancient can of paint stripper that was left here when we rented this house , with methanol and methylene chloride in it. It seemed to do something but maybe more time is required.

I had no idea vaseline was such tenacious stuff, if it is vaseline. Maybe another oil would absorb it?

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#9 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue May 25, 2021 7:51 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 7:36 pm
Thanks for the lab work. Could be my problem too. I used various solvents with swabs only fairly briefly and ended up altering what was originally there to a milky hard smear. I found an ancient can of paint stripper that was left here when we rented this house , with methanol and methylene chloride in it. It seemed to do something but maybe more time is required.

I had no idea vaseline was such tenacious stuff, if it is vaseline. Maybe another oil would absorb it?
Just thinking. I frequently mount diatoms in the resin Pleurax. Often excess resin spreads beyond the border of the coverslip. And covers the slide here and there, in a transparent, clear layer. If I try to remove it with a solvent-damp Q-tip or tissue, and the solvent is ethanol or IPA, some of the resin is removed, but not all. The residue becomes like milk-white streaks. It needs repeated wipes with acetone to remove completely. And that must be done carefully in order to preserve the proper resin layer under the coverslip. --- So, could the disturbance you see is an old resin residue ? Canada balsam perhaps ? if so, xylene might help.

Vaseline is not really tenacious. It does not stick to glass. I am only referring to what liquids dissolve it as-is, without wiping. Wiping a residue of vaseline off the glass is a lot easier than removal of resin.

Paint stripper - what I know is a gel-like mixture of a very corrosive mixture of caustic soda (or the like) with a solvent, thickened by some stuff. Might damage the metal parts around the lens.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#10 Post by apochronaut » Tue May 25, 2021 8:52 pm

I don't think Canada Balsam. Ethanol would have dissolved it and this part probably post dates B & L's use of Canada Balsam. It is a fairly recent part. . The substance seemed to change character when I used lens cleaner and then got worse when I used I.P.A. Like an oil and water kind of emmulsion looks. Presumably, petrolatum can harden over time?
The lens sits in a funnel shaped recess, with about 1mm sticking up above the bezel around it. There is no cement visible and no obvious mounting apparatus or method, other than a press fit. The back of the lens is clean and clear. I can get at the lens and cover it's surface without touching the bezel because of it's fairly severe convex protrusion . Paint remover would obviously remove the blacking, so I can keep it on the glass only.
My next try will be WD 40. See if it softens or absorbs it. Right now it has the character of a thick hard, rather opaque water deposit on glass. It started, looking like a big smear of grease. It has definitely gotten harder, more opaque. Something I have done cleaned some off, because the center of the lens is fairly clear. The residue is mostly around the peripheral 60% or so.

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#11 Post by Hobbyst46 » Tue May 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Hopefully it is not the white staining I see on expired slides and coverslips, and caused by long term exposure to the atmosphere... Well, lenses are not made of soda glass...
I would also think of rubbing it with wet polycarbonate soft sponge (sometimes named "Magic Sponge") but it will remove the coating...

P.S. if it some biological stuff, protein or such, all common solvents will likely fail. The best chemical to remove it would be dilute caustic soda (say, 1% in water). Again, must take precautions, caustic soda is very corrosive to the eyes and skin. You can leave the liquid on the lens for a while to work. Caustic soda slowly decomposes proteins. Perhaps that is why the paint stripper did something.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#12 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 12:38 am

I tried acetone. no effect. It is not glass corrosion. It is a grease of some sort and I still think it to be petroleum jelly. Originally it was quite clear, only showing the odd droplet structure but once I tried to clean it, I smeared it around. It makes a really good dispersion screen. I can move it around with my fingerprints, smear it and even leave a bit of a fingerprint in it but if I try to clean it with s swab, the swab won't pick it up, doesn't even move it. Maybe some super absorbent material will but it has to be absorbent to that form of grease. I guess petroleum jelly began life by annoying oil riggers.
I will get some terpentine tomorrow.
The paint stripper is methyl alcohol ( so it dissolves shellac) and methylene chloride, not caustic soda. Perhaps it has some small absorbtive function on certain waxes, which might contain some paraffin.

Greg Howald
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Re: solvent information required

#13 Post by Greg Howald » Wed May 26, 2021 2:06 am

Hey gang, What about white vinegar? I understand that It will cut silicone grease and lubricants but I have no experience in this matter. I'm just kinda chiming in.
Greg

Matador
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Re: solvent information required

#14 Post by Matador » Wed May 26, 2021 4:01 am

what about an "aromatic" solvent such as xylene or toluene ?

MichaelG.
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Re: solvent information required

#15 Post by MichaelG. » Wed May 26, 2021 7:08 am

apochronaut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 1:21 pm
... I tried cleaning off the residue with the standard lens cleaning solution I use but all it did was smear it around and turn a clear uneven residue into a milky smear. Next, I tried I.P.A. No or not much effect. Then 100% ethyl alcohol. No or not much effect. Then pure dish detergent. Kind of smeared it around a bit more, maybe. Then lacquer thinner. No or not much effect. Next in line, muriatic acid which maybe dissolved it to a more translucent state but it still clings. Does anyone have any other ideas?
Silicone grease springs to mind :(

It may be worth investigating products like these:
https://www.nugentec.com/silicone-oil-r ... cleaners#1

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#16 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed May 26, 2021 7:38 am

So after many hours here are the results of the test with Turpentine, Heptane and IPA.
Petroleum jelly in solvents after 12h.jpg
Petroleum jelly in solvents after 12h.jpg (67.45 KiB) Viewed 7246 times
The jelly lump is visible on the bottom of the IPA vial. Unaffected as far as I can see. The liquid appears to be clear.

In turpentine, the lump has been disintegrated so we see a suspension or emulsion. Possibly some of the jelly dissolved and the rest remains in the form of tiny droplets. Some droplets adhere to the glass surface.

On the left, the vial contains petrol ether, in fact it is heptane or octane, I cannot remember which. The result is in between those of the other vials: Some of the jelly became tiny droplets, yet a significant part remained. It is attached to the glass surface and appears like a mirror form of the letter C.

So, of these three options, mineral turpentine is the best - FOR PETROLEUM JELLY. It is available in hardware stores for use as paint thinner.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#17 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 10:48 am

Greg Howald wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 2:06 am
Hey gang, What about white vinegar? I understand that It will cut silicone grease and lubricants but I have no experience in this matter. I'm just kinda chiming in.
Greg
I did try vinegar. There was a time when the smear seemed like a tough film on the glass. A swab would not do anything so I did try a couple of acids, in case it was some sort of alkaline precipitate. Finally, I touched it with my finger, to discover that I could move it around.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#18 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 10:49 am

Matador wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 4:01 am
what about an "aromatic" solvent such as xylene or toluene ?
I tried n-heptane. Nothing, quick anyway.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#19 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 10:58 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:08 am
apochronaut wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 1:21 pm
... I tried cleaning off the residue with the standard lens cleaning solution I use but all it did was smear it around and turn a clear uneven residue into a milky smear. Next, I tried I.P.A. No or not much effect. Then 100% ethyl alcohol. No or not much effect. Then pure dish detergent. Kind of smeared it around a bit more, maybe. Then lacquer thinner. No or not much effect. Next in line, muriatic acid which maybe dissolved it to a more translucent state but it still clings. Does anyone have any other ideas?
Silicone grease springs to mind :(

It may be worth investigating products like these:
https://www.nugentec.com/silicone-oil-r ... cleaners#1

MichaelG.
This makes some sense but the question I have is: what would it be doing in there? The only reason I can think of is to make a soft focus lens. The original substance was clear and unevenly distributed. After mixing with lens cleaner and I.P.A., it became cloudy and I smeared it around.... I would lean towards vaseline as the culprit, since it is the standard of practice but maybe someone decided to go hi-tech?
Some camera forums say soapy water and/or windex. I tried pure detergent. Don't have windex. Could be silicone grease.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#20 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 11:05 am

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:38 am
So after many hours here are the results of the test with Turpentine, Heptane and IPA.

Petroleum jelly in solvents after 12h.jpg

The jelly lump is visible on the bottom of the IPA vial. Unaffected as far as I can see. The liquid appears to be clear.

In turpentine, the lump has been disintegrated so we see a suspension or emulsion. Possibly some of the jelly dissolved and the rest remains in the form of tiny droplets. Some droplets adhere to the glass surface.

On the left, the vial contains petrol ether, in fact it is heptane or octane, I cannot remember which. The result is in between those of the other vials: Some of the jelly became tiny droplets, yet a significant part remained. It is attached to the glass surface and appears like a mirror form of the letter C.

So, of these three options, mineral turpentine is the best - FOR PETROLEUM JELLY. It is available in hardware stores for use as paint thinner.
That makes sense. Thanks for doing the chem. lab. Some chemical forum said acetone would work but it didn't for me. Another said IPA and that didn't. Not quickly anyway. I will get some turpentine. I do have some cedar leaf oil. That might work. Maybe I will grab a skunk and give it a squeeze in the hind quarters.

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#21 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed May 26, 2021 11:32 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:08 am
Silicone grease springs to mind :(
AFAIK silicone grease is removable with acetone. Silicone grease remains flexible for years.

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#22 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed May 26, 2021 11:38 am

Apochronaut, you mentioned that none of the treatments worked "quickly". That is an important point. It takes time for a liquid to penetrate a tough layer of resin/hardened grease/adhesive/sealant, even when the layer is thin. Such slowness is demonstrated by the above test of petroleum jelly, and by the penetration of immersion oil into nail polish rings around coverslips, for example.

tgss
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Re: solvent information required

#23 Post by tgss » Wed May 26, 2021 12:00 pm

This sounds dumb, even to me, but the description of the residue sound a lot like something "Goo Gone Goo and Adhesive Remover" might deal with. Known ingredients include:
PPG-3 METHYL ETHER. Some Concern: developmental/endocrine/reproductive effects. ...
KEROSENE (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED. Moderate Concern: general systemic/organ effects; Some Concern: skin irritation/allergies/damage.
CITRUS SPECIES LEAF EXTRACT.
CITRUS AURANTIUM DULCIS (ORANGE) FRUIT WATER.
See: https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/288 ... trusPower/

And it's available (with Covid restrictions of course) at your local hardware store. Goo Gone has expanded their product range so it would be important to make sure you get the Goo & Adhesive remover formulation.
Hope you have some luck getting your goo to be gone, whatever eventually works.

Tom W

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#24 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 pm

Hobbyst46 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 11:38 am
Apochronaut, you mentioned that none of the treatments worked "quickly". That is an important point. It takes time for a liquid to penetrate a tough layer of resin/hardened grease/adhesive/sealant, even when the layer is thin. Such slowness is demonstrated by the above test of petroleum jelly, and by the penetration of immersion oil into nail polish rings around coverslips, for example.
At first, I did think I had created a firm precipitate on the glass somehow but wiping it with a finger shows it to be actually pliable, yet tenaciously adherent to the glass and despite it's apparently thin structure, resistant to any solvents yet tried. Right now I have a wad of tissue on it soaked in " Nature Clean" floor cleaner, which has tea tree oil in it. Maybe? I ended up having to take a bath in it, after I got sprayed by the skunk.

I have not gone to get turpentine yet. We have no open hardware stores. I may have some at the farm or I will just boil some trees.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#25 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 pm

tgss wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 12:00 pm
This sounds dumb, even to me, but the description of the residue sound a lot like something "Goo Gone Goo and Adhesive Remover" might deal with. Known ingredients include:
PPG-3 METHYL ETHER. Some Concern: developmental/endocrine/reproductive effects. ...
KEROSENE (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED. Moderate Concern: general systemic/organ effects; Some Concern: skin irritation/allergies/damage.
CITRUS SPECIES LEAF EXTRACT.
CITRUS AURANTIUM DULCIS (ORANGE) FRUIT WATER.
See: https://www.ewg.org/guides/cleaners/288 ... trusPower/

And it's available (with Covid restrictions of course) at your local hardware store. Goo Gone has expanded their product range so it would be important to make sure you get the Goo & Adhesive remover formulation.
Hope you have some luck getting your goo to be gone, whatever eventually works.

Tom W
Thanks. That's the stuff municipalities use for notices and grafitti isn't it? So, I have tried ethyl ether for a bit of time. My problem is, I cannot see how to remove the lens, which would make working on that one surface fairly easy. In situ. , I have to keep any solvents away from the bezel, which is possible with care and also avoid trapping vapour, which could invade the cement layer(s)of the lens, which may be a highly corrected triplet. It is about 15mm thick.
Kerosene might hold some promise. It has been proven non-toxic since Larry Stooge drank from a gallon of it in Playing the Ponies and it never seemed to affect his behaviour.


A couple of pictures below. front where the stuff is squatting and then the back.
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IMG_20210526_093436.jpg (114.29 KiB) Viewed 7196 times

Hobbyst46
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Re: solvent information required

#26 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed May 26, 2021 1:59 pm

Crossing fingers!

One more possibility, is to consult workshops that makes furniture and household/decorative items of PVC and other transparent plastics. Although PVC is usually welded, rather than glued, in some instances PVC, polycarbonate and acrylics are glued together. For this purpose, there are dedicated glues but also some liquids, such as THF. Even folks who construct aquaria of lexan or acrylic may know adhesive removers.

Now I see the horrible photos. It actually looks like parafin or beeswax, but since it was once clear and transparent, it is neither. A glued diffuser, as you previously suggested ? very thin white net-cloth, that with time deteriorated so you could remove a part ?

Greg Howald
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Re: solvent information required

#27 Post by Greg Howald » Wed May 26, 2021 2:10 pm

Looking at your photos makes it clear that you have quite a problem. This may be a stupid idea.. I dunno... But can you heat this up to about 160 to 170 F? I just wonder if a little heat might help in its removal as it may make the substance become liquid.
Greg

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#28 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 3:51 pm

That is a good idea, Greg. I may be wrong but I think p.j. and paraffin are very similar....This stuff was like clear p.j. when I encountered it but then I appear to have invented paraffin now, about 200 years late. I have been pondering the heating possibility but have to consider the potential negative effects on any cements present. There is certainly some in a lens that thick and possibly some for installation, although I cannot see any.
Might be able to wipe it bit by bit with warm oil.

PondScum
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Re: solvent information required

#29 Post by PondScum » Wed May 26, 2021 5:12 pm

This may sound crazy, but if it is really petroleum jelly you might try vegetable oil followed by detergent and water.

apochronaut
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Re: solvent information required

#30 Post by apochronaut » Wed May 26, 2021 7:38 pm

I did try a petroleum based oil, thinking along the same lines and saw little change. It has more the consistency of a wax or paraffin now. Paraffin is commonly used as a canning seal, for jams mostly but I have seen it used with pickled products that contain oil, so it may be oil soluble but it would have to be the right oil.

The Nature Clean floor cleaner that contains Tea Tree oil, seems to have removed a small amount where the layer is thinnest.

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