Camera Choice Help

Here you can discuss everything related to taking light micrographs and videos.
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elaniobro
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Camera Choice Help

#1 Post by elaniobro » Thu May 05, 2022 12:08 am

Hello everyone. I recently tried to connect (tether) my canon EOS 20D with my macbook Big Sur. Welp, zilch.

I even tried to use darktable and gphoto2. Zilch, so, seems like Canon and the interwebs do not support this camera circa 2004, nearly 2 decades old!

So, I find myself looking for a new camera. Recommendations are most welcome. FWIW, I bought a T adapter on Amazon recently, so eager to get this going. Not looking to break the bank.

Your advice and tutelage is most welcomed and appreciated.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#2 Post by Scarodactyl » Thu May 05, 2022 12:18 am

The canon T6 and T7 are affordable options with good performance. I went recently from a T6 to a T7 and have liked them both a lot.

Dr.Karan
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#3 Post by Dr.Karan » Thu May 05, 2022 6:04 am

How about Eakins Cmos 48mp camera paired with 0.5x reduction optics

apochronaut
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#4 Post by apochronaut » Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 am

There really isn't any particular reason to use a DSLR as a microscope camera unless you want to be able to decouple the camera and use it otherwise. I have used a Sony mirrorless 20 mp camera for about 5 years with excellent results and it is pretty much entry level. . Light, easy to couple and decouple, and a decently large articulating screen for live view, which I use. Nice focus magnifier. Many mirrorless brands would be similar except for perhaps the articulating screen feature and should tether easily to the Mac. It is also a pretty decent camera off the microscope too. It or similar bodies shouldn't be any more than 300.00, probably less.
Dedicated microscope cameras can offer better video performance per dollar ; if that is a feature you want . I would recommend a global shutter on one of those. The mp's will be less but the ability to capture rapid motion makes up for that.

Hobbyst46
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#5 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu May 05, 2022 5:16 pm

Two features (among others) of the camera that are important for photomicrography are very often ignored and not mentioned in camera reviews for photographers.
One is tethering to a computer (PC/Mac). Is it possible to fully remote control the camera from the PC ?.
The other is direct AC operation instead of a battery. Battery replacement on a microscope-mounted camera is nuisance. is it possible to use an AC adapter (with a dummy battery) ?
I suggest to carefully verify that the camera has these features.

apochronaut
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#6 Post by apochronaut » Thu May 05, 2022 5:23 pm

I would assume that most modern cameras can be used with the charger connected , if desired?

Phill Brown
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#7 Post by Phill Brown » Thu May 05, 2022 7:39 pm

HDMI to USB 2 or 3 video capture card.
1080 60fps.
Cheap as chips.
Canon 50D with magic lantern for clean HDMI. Magnesium body.
Live view,a lot of camera for the money.
No built in mic,only APS-C.

Hobbyst46
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#8 Post by Hobbyst46 » Thu May 05, 2022 8:35 pm

apochronaut wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 5:23 pm
I would assume that most modern cameras can be used with the charger connected , if desired?
I was just thinking about mirrorless Canons as example (arbitrary choice). The "old" models (EOS-M, M10, M100, M3, ...) are all devoid of direct computer tethering and their batteries are externally charged, with a charger, yet for some models, some third party AC adapters were available and replace the battery. Newer models such as the M50 and M200 permit tethering and still cannot be directly charged (AFAIK). More modern Canon R models can be charged via USB - I do not know whether it is only possible with a power pack, can it work or directly from the wall USB outlet. And camera body price depends on modernity...

Scarodactyl
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#9 Post by Scarodactyl » Thu May 05, 2022 9:52 pm

I really only know the T6/T7 personally. Third party AC adapters are cheap and readily available (and only some of the reviews say they fried their camera). I have used one without issues and need to get one for my current setup too. In many ways mirrorless cameras are superior for microscopy--no shutter to slap or wear out, plus a shorter flange distance for easier adapting.

elaniobro
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#10 Post by elaniobro » Tue May 10, 2022 8:39 pm

Thank you all for the insight. FWIW; my buddy gave me a canon EOS 20D. It debuted back in, I beliee 2004, so, its is nearly 2 decades old. I came across some open source software: https://www.darktable.org and tried connecting it, to use in tether mode. Well, my MacOS does in fact recognize it, however, even after tether mode I am not able to actually trigger the shutter. I did some googling and I believe the canon EOS 20D is no longer supported.

I have been looking at FB marketplace for used cameras, I saw one Canon Rebel T3i dslr. I am wondering if I should "splurge" and go mirror less. Ideally, I will be using this camera predominantly for microscopy, but I do like the idea of decoulpling it to take in the field for macro photography as well. Advantages for mirorless, lighter smaller I was thinking on this one, but also want to be mindful of the lens options too https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-produ ... /z-fc.html

I suppose my best route is to go into a store and talk with a sales rep, but I would like to be armed with questions and prepared, this way I am not hoodwinked into spending/buying something that is not what I want.

Lastly, what is the importance of good T lens adapters? Is/are the Nikon/Canon adapters sold by AMscope on Amazon good?

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blekenbleu
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#11 Post by blekenbleu » Tue May 10, 2022 11:00 pm

20D is a durable camera; mine still works with original batteries.
For microscopy, a Canon with Live View will be preferred:
  • actually focus on the sensor
  • avoid mirror vibration
  • HDMI to a TV helps focus
Beyond that, a model supported by Magic Lantern yields some interesting options.
https://magiclantern.fm/

50D bodies are consistently available on eBay for < US$100
One benefit of staying with Canon DSLRs is that many cheap adapters are available,
e.g. M42 to EF focus confirm adapter
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

Hobbyst46
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#12 Post by Hobbyst46 » Wed May 11, 2022 8:13 am

Please note that sellers in camera stores hardly know about the specific features for photomicrography.
Reliable practical information is in articles by Charles Krebs for example.

MicroBob
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#13 Post by MicroBob » Wed May 11, 2022 3:00 pm

What type of microscope do you use and what expectations do you have for your photos?
Do you consider to use the camera for normal photography in the field too?

Chas
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#14 Post by Chas » Wed May 11, 2022 8:27 pm

The one thing that has turned out to be most useful to me is a tiltable rear LCD screen.
It means that I can put the camera on a microscope, even a vertical one, focus and photograph without the microscope being near or to coupled to some other screen.
The other thing is some kind of remote shutter release.
...I only have a cable plug-in one ...I have no idea how well/easily the remote-control ones work (??)

Sliding Focus
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#15 Post by Sliding Focus » Fri May 13, 2022 1:28 am

I use a Canon DSLR and am happy with it, and old, used DSLRs are fairly affordable, so I'd recommend you just get a newer Canon. From what I hear, pretty much any Canon DSLR will work well as long as it features live view. The oldest model that I have personally tried on my microscope was an EOS 40D—a direct successor to your 20D—and it worked great. One in nice shape should cost less than $200.

I've never tried a camera with a tilting screen or touch screen, but those both seem like they would be nice features to have if you're willing to pay for them.

Personally, I wouldn't go mirrorless unless you intended to do so for reasons other than shooting through your microscope.

For tethering software, I use Canon EOS Utility, and I think that it works very well (though I do not know if it is compatible with the 20D). The software is free from Canon as long as you have the serial number for a Canon camera. Here's a link that should start it downloading to your computer automatically. The only problem is that it can be finicky to install—I meant to post a thread with instructions a while back, but never did...will try to do so sometime soon. Feel free to reach out if you need help.

I picked up a used T-adapter labeled NDPL-1(2x) on eBay—similar to or the same as Amscope's—and it works well with my stereomicroscope. Those adapters get pretty mixed reviews, though, so YMMV.

richbart
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#16 Post by richbart » Fri May 13, 2022 2:26 am

EOS 3.12.1 worked with my canon on Catalina. I read it was a fix for older canons on Mac.

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blekenbleu
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#17 Post by blekenbleu » Fri May 13, 2022 4:32 pm

Canon's software seemingly dropped 20D support when migrating from Windows XP;
there is discussion on the web about running those old versions...
Tether Tools identifies three programs that currently support 20D tether:
https://tethertools.com/camera/canon-eos-20d/
... including Adobe Lightroom Classic rentware.
Original Lightroom 3.0 or newer with perpetual license should also work;
Version 6 seems most desirable (64-bit support)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Lightroom
.. but still problematic:
https://petapixel.com/2020/12/24/adobe- ... ing-apart/

Another workaround: Apple's Aperture supported tethering;
https://tethertools.com/blog/which-came ... perture-3/
a tool call Retroactive gets Aperture running on Big Sur:
https://photojoseph.com/tips/2021/2/1/w ... os-big-sur
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

elaniobro
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#18 Post by elaniobro » Sat May 14, 2022 1:07 pm

@microbob:I plan to use it in the field as well. I would like to begin taking macros. I currently use my iPhone11 with a Moment 10x macro lens, which is fantastic, but also only 10x.

I currently have a swift 350T and its stero scope cousin. I only just got into microscopy about 1.5yrs ago, and I already feel like I am out growing my swift starter scope. Its a fantastic scope, don't get me wrong, but I feel like I now understand what I want out of a scope and feel more comfortable making a larger BIFL purchase of a new one. I have heard Motic are basically cheaper Leica's and reasonably priced, when compared to a Leica.

I went to a camera store and spoke with a rep. The told me to stay away from beginner cameras, as they often times break easier. He pointed me toward a Beg/Intermediate one, Canon M50, which is mirrorless, and will aid in Live view. The rep was extremely knowledgeable, patient and informative. Mirrorless is where the industry is moving, so if I am to get the M50, which is already an older version, it will last me for 15+ yrs.

My next question now, what type of T adapter do you all recommend? Should I just get a canon lens adapter and use the amazon one I already have?

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Re: Camera Choice Help

#19 Post by blekenbleu » Sat May 14, 2022 7:42 pm

Most T2 to EF-M adapters seem weirdly deep;
one advantage of mirrorless over DSLR should be reduced distance to the sensor.
T2 to EF-M adapters also lack focus confirm.

Ebay lists thin M42 to EF-M adapters, e.g. https://www.ebay.com/itm/354050402462

Personally, looking for a mirrorless camera to use for 15 years,
focus bracketing would be a consideration, particularly for macro photography.
Canon has made only 8 EF-M lens models;
some predict that Canon may drop that line
in favor of RF bodies with APS-C sensors.
Last edited by blekenbleu on Sat May 14, 2022 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

Scarodactyl
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#20 Post by Scarodactyl » Sat May 14, 2022 7:47 pm

blekenbleu wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:42 pm
EF-M to T2 adapters seem to be weirdly deep;
That's specifically to compensate for the short flange focal distance, though you can get flat ones too. On some scopes a mirrorless can reach the primary image for direct projection without modifying the scope where a dslr cannot. That may or may not matter depending on the microscope though.

elaniobro
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#21 Post by elaniobro » Sat May 14, 2022 10:52 pm

Canon has made only 8 EF-M lens models;
some predict that Canon may drop that line
in favor of RF bodies with APS-C sensors
Are you saying canon may drop mirrorless? Sorry, I am a n00b and do not understand what a RF body is nor APS-C.

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blekenbleu
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#22 Post by blekenbleu » Sat May 14, 2022 11:15 pm

Are you saying canon may drop mirrorless?
They may drop the M series and concentrate on their more recently introduced RF mirrorless series.
Canon introduced the EOS M series in 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF-M_lens_mount
Interchangeable lens cameras have various sensors sizes.
Sensors matching traditional 35mm film are called "full-frame";
EOS M series cameras have APS-C sensors, with a 1.6 crop factor:
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APS-C

Canon launched full-frame mirrorless cameras in 2018, with an RF mount,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS
and has already begun discontinuing EF mount lenses (for DSLRs).
For DSLRs, Canon used the same EF mount for both full-frame and APS-C sensors.
There appears to be nothing preventing Canon from offering APS-C sensor camera bodies using their RF mount,
allowing them to consolidate development on a single line of RF lenses.
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

Chas
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#23 Post by Chas » Sun May 15, 2022 2:19 pm

EOS M50....that is the camera I would like.
If you are thinking of doing macro then a set of extension tubes is where a lot of people start and they are useful for other things.
For example, you might find that your microscope eyepeice adapter gives a vignette'd image with your new camera (because the sensor is so much closer to lens-mount flange than in a dslr) ..if so, put in a slice of extension tube.
I guess that your wallet has been hoovered out, but there is a small and lightweight macro lens to go with the M series, with lights built into front.. these are great help in focussing if you are out and about in the evening.
I hope it goes well.

elaniobro
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#24 Post by elaniobro » Sun May 22, 2022 12:00 am

@chas: I am actually contemplating M50 and M50 mark ii Would you recommend one over the other and if so why?

I am curious to which macro lens for the M series you speak of, will you please link me? Thanks!
Chas wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 2:19 pm
EOS M50....that is the camera I would like.
If you are thinking of doing macro then a set of extension tubes is where a lot of people start and they are useful for other things.
For example, you might find that your microscope eyepeice adapter gives a vignette'd image with your new camera (because the sensor is so much closer to lens-mount flange than in a dslr) ..if so, put in a slice of extension tube.
I guess that your wallet has been hoovered out, but there is a small and lightweight macro lens to go with the M series, with lights built into front.. these are great help in focussing if you are out and about in the evening.
I hope it goes well.

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Re: Camera Choice Help

#25 Post by Chas » Sun May 22, 2022 6:55 pm

The lens is the; Canon EF-M 28mm f3.5 Macro IS STM Lens.. I have a short focal length efs macro lens with the little lights on the end and they are surprisingly helpful.
I cant comment on how the M50 or M50 MkII work in practice as my DSLR is still doing its job :-)

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imkap
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Re: Camera Choice Help

#26 Post by imkap » Sun May 22, 2022 11:22 pm

My friend has M50 so I have tried it and it is great, I have a Sony a6000. Great thing about Sony is you can get any kind of adapters for all sorts of lens. And the built in flash can be tilted up with a finger, so you can actually make usable images with a flash (not related to microscopy)... M50 is much newer, so should be better but the price of a used Sony is really low lately, one can be found with kit lens for less than 300€.

Mirrorless have a 'real' Live view unlike DSLRs so far more convenient for microscopy, especially if you can tilt the screen in all directions like on M50. Although it is all a habit, DSLRs are great, I have a few friends who are professional photographers and they all use DSLRs. I'm thinking about getting a full frame in the near future. Still didn't decide should I stick with Sony mirrorless, or go with a DSLR. Nikon seems nice too and the older models are not too expensive and they have been using the same mount for ages so one can use much older lens without adapters...

EDIT: Olympus om-d e-m5 or e-m1 are really good for macro with their Zuiko lens. I know a guy with superb results. Look up olympus om-d hi-res mode on the Internet, great for static objects. Although a bit more expensive I think.

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Re: Camera Choice Help

#27 Post by MicroBob » Mon May 23, 2022 7:25 pm

elaniobro wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:07 pm
@microbob:I plan to use it in the field as well. I would like to begin taking macros. I currently use my iPhone11 with a Moment 10x macro lens, which is fantastic, but also only 10x.
For field use a DSLM is a lot more compact and light than a DSLR. Also the future of DSLRs is very dim and it is questionable to invest in DSLR lenses in 2022.
For your basic microscope you wouldn't need a great camera and adaptation, but for a future more expensive microscope it would make sense to think about the way the camera will be connected. With a modern infinity micoscope it would be best to directly project the image of the camera port of a trino tube on the chip, no glass in between. The camera would have to support exposure without a real camera lens attatched. Sony cameras usually do this without any problems. The size of the chip should fit to the intermediate image, APS-C could be just right.

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Re: Camera Choice Help

#28 Post by Sure Squintsalot » Mon May 23, 2022 8:41 pm

Hooking up middling technology to old technology with newer software in between is always a recipe for hours wasted getting things to play nicely together.
And then, when it finally happens, you're only an automated update away from from having to do it all over again!

I use a $20 handheld remote for my Sony to activate video and shutter: I can watch through the scope and acivate the camera without my eyes ever leaving the objectives.

Probably not as convenient as managing the action via the wi-fi connected camera from your laptop while sipping mojitos from the veranda!

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Re: Camera Choice Help

#29 Post by Scarodactyl » Mon May 23, 2022 9:09 pm

Sure Squintsalot wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 8:41 pm
Hooking up middling technology to old technology with newer software in between is always a recipe for hours wasted getting things to play nicely together.
This has not been my experience at all. Canon's software has worked very consistently for me, and there are third party options available as well.

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Re: Camera Choice Help

#30 Post by blekenbleu » Mon May 23, 2022 9:22 pm

Cameras will generally work the same for finite or infinity microscopes, because tube lens.
EF-M and other APS-C mirrorless bodies may allow avoiding a projection lens
by getting their sensor at tube lens' (or finite objectives') focal point.
For example, removing a Nikon trinocular F's chimney allows this...
Thin T- or M42-to-mirrorless flange adapters are sadly rare, but e.g. available for EF-M:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800990201232.html

Lighter mirrorless APS-C bodies are more appropriate for (non-trinocular) body tube clamp attachment.
One EOS-M issue is inability to power by USB, requiring a dummy battery power supply or frequent swapping/recharging.
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

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